Mudcat Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 Originally posted by Steve LeBlanc: (and maybe the V-Tone analog amp modeler as well).if you mean the V-AMP...I'd recommend you spend a little more for something better, I've found the V-AMP so noisy it's almost unusable ....Nope, I meant the V-Tone ANALOG Modeler . This is a Tech 21 knock-off. They also use this technology in some of their new amps for the preamp section. http://www.behringer.com/GDI21/GDI21_medium.jpg Mudcat's music on Soundclick "Work hard. Rock hard. Eat hard. Sleep hard. Grow big. Wear glasses if you need 'em."-The Webb Wilder Credo- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve LeBlanc Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 oh, well I don't have any experience with that so I have no comment on it...I do have the Tech 21 pedal on my board and love it http://www.youtube.com/notesleb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doc taz Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 That new design for the Ultra Metal's interesting. Still seems to be the Metal Zone in different clothing, though. In any case, even if it had stuck to the original cosmetics, it probably won't sound as good as the original, and probably has subpar electronics. (Of course, I haven't tried them yet, but judging from the bad comments I've heard about the V-Amp...) That means no Keeley mod for these things... sevenstring.org profile my flickr page Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scone Mason Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 It's a competitive world out there. Roland did the right thing by suing if they can get away with it. It's like the Gibson vs. Paul Reed Smith suit, whatever you can get away with. After about 20 years of stomping various boxes, about 2 years ago I started revamping my rig, one piece at a time, starting with a Matchless amplifier and moving forward with boutique pedals. The first thing you notice about a boutique pedal is how sturdy it is, always a metal case, true bypass switching, and top-end components. Voodoo Labs tell you which pedals they are emulating, but they add things (e.g. Sparkle Drive = TS808 + clean boost) and improve the circuitry. Same with Demeter. They make a scary-good fuzz-face, but one that will never break down, crackle, or need replacement. A Demeter Opto-compulator will outlive me. It will also make my slide guitar sound awesome until the day it does outlive me. Competition should be fair, but underhandedness is its own reward. It is really up to the courts to decide that a product infringes on another based on appearance or performance, but good products always improve on the earlier versions of it. That's how we got electric guitars, then humbucking pickups, then active circuitry, the Buzz Feiten tuning system, locking tuners, nickel-plated strings, all these were improvements on older ideas. It's when you simply copy an idea and its conduit and sell it as a competitor that you're breaking the law. It will be interesting to see what happens, although Behringer's quick backpedaling indicates they knew what they were doing and wondered if they would get caught. All gods are imaginary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ymirld Posted March 8, 2005 Share Posted March 8, 2005 I just came upon this site while doing research on this topic. I'm an econ student doing research for grad school and I'm using Behringer's business model as one of my examples. Behringer isn't doing anything new. Other companies in almost every field do the exact same thing. That's why we have patents and copyrights for new products and why those patents and copyrights also expire. In the pharmaceutical industry, one company will invest millions, if not billions, of dollars researching and developing a new drug. When the patent on that drug is expired, other companies begin producing the exact same drug, and selling it as a generic alternative. This gives the developing company a chance to profit from their investment, but prevents them from monopolizing the drug, which would hurt the consumer. I know the laws are a little bit differant for the pharmaceutical industry, but the reasoning is still the same. Behringer is offering a "generic" model of some of these other products. For those consumers who dislike generic products, don't buy them, for those who prefer generic products, go for it, but it's good to give consumers a choice. I think consumer response to Behringer is interesting because some people like their products, but somehow feel that their business practices are inethical, so they take a "moral" stand to not buy their products. Do these same people pay for brandname prescription drugs because they feel it is inethical to produce generics? Or do they stay away from generic foods at the grocery store, generic consumer electronics (especially TVs, VCRs, and DVD players), or generic clothing and shoes (much of which are copied from brandname fasion designer's hard work and creativity)? Morality is obviously a personal choice and I'm not questioning anyones personal beliefs on Behringer's practices, but to be fair, we shouldn't really judge them any harder than we do the other generic-producing companies. Many of the tech products we use, especially computer hardware & software, have evolved from "stolen" R&D, so I think it's kind of funny to see some people bash Behringer's practices on an internet forum, when the majority of the hardware and software they are using has evolved from simular practices. Personaly, when I buy equipment, I look for the best value. I bought a Behringer mixer because dollar for dollar, it was my best option, and I have been completely satisfied with it. Their mic preamps, on the other hand, didn't suit me, so I spent more money on a preamp that that did. I'll give their stomp boxes a try and if they present a better price/quality value, I'll definatly pick a few up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuitarWolf Posted March 8, 2005 Share Posted March 8, 2005 Originally posted by Dr. Taz: That means no Keeley mod for these things... What exactly is a Keeley Mod? YtseJam your Majesty! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doc taz Posted March 8, 2005 Share Posted March 8, 2005 A midwestern guy from the U.S. spends an awful lot of time doing modifications to some well-known boxes, including ones from BOSS, Ibanez, and one from Pro Co, otherwise known as the RAT. =) He also sells some of his own boxes. www.robertkeeley.com He is a tone god to a few folks on this board, and certainly has whetted my appetite. sevenstring.org profile my flickr page Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave da Dude Posted March 8, 2005 Share Posted March 8, 2005 Originally posted by Jeebus ®: How many low-cost Strat copies are there? No one ever complains about those. Exactly what I was thinking ... also Tele knock offs, LP's, ES335, etc., etc. ad infinitum ... Does anyone remember the Japanese copies of almost everything (not guitars, but radios, etc.) in the 1950'-1969's, complete with flaws? How does that old adage go? Imitation is the most sincere form of a compliment", or somethin' like that. Gotta' geetar... got the amp. There must be SOMEthing else I... "need". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picker Posted March 8, 2005 Share Posted March 8, 2005 Originally posted by Dr. Taz: That means no Keeley mod for these things... Maybe, maybe not. If the components are subpar, they may be very good candidates for upgrading and modification. I think it depends on how they are put together, doesn't it? Back in the day, I took an E-H LPB2 open to change the battery, and was amazed to see it didn't even have a circuit board, just components soldered together in a sort of funky-looking little clump. My guess is that would be hard to modify... Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug osborne Posted March 8, 2005 Share Posted March 8, 2005 Originally posted by picker: ...Back in the day, I took an E-H LPB2 open to change the battery, and was amazed to see it didn't even have a circuit board, just components soldered together in a sort of funky-looking little clump. My guess is that would be hard to modify... Actually, that's probably easier to modify that many factory-made items. Behringer (I'm just guessing here) probably uses surface-mount for these pedals - machine stuffed board, wave soldered, mass produced - which can be nearly impossible to service (or mod). This is how they generally keep their costs low. Doug Osborne Music on Bandcamp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darklava Posted March 8, 2005 Share Posted March 8, 2005 A keeley mod on a Boss Metal Zone I read was like someone tring to polish a turd.These would be great for kids starting out,back in the day I wish I had something like this to buy. The story of life is quicker then the blink of an eye, the story of love is hello, goodbye. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guitarzan Posted March 10, 2005 Share Posted March 10, 2005 Dark that pic of Warren looks like my brother if he had long hair. http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=193274 rock it, i will Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueZet Posted March 10, 2005 Share Posted March 10, 2005 Originally posted by Scone Mason: It's a competitive world out there. Roland did the right thing by suing if they can get away with it. It's like the Gibson vs. Paul Reed Smith suit, whatever you can get away with. I guess next is FORD suing everyone who makes a 4-wheeled, engine-driven vehicle, because it's their "trade dress"? - due to recent cutbacks, the light at the end of the tunnel has been SWITCHED OFF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip OKeefe Posted March 10, 2005 Share Posted March 10, 2005 Originally posted by Doug Osborne: Originally posted by picker: ...Back in the day, I took an E-H LPB2 open to change the battery, and was amazed to see it didn't even have a circuit board, just components soldered together in a sort of funky-looking little clump. My guess is that would be hard to modify... Actually, that's probably easier to modify that many factory-made items. Behringer (I'm just guessing here) probably uses surface-mount for these pedals - machine stuffed board, wave soldered, mass produced - which can be nearly impossible to service (or mod). This is how they generally keep their costs low. Doug's correct. I have a LPB-1 (same as the 2, but in a smaller case, with a different type of bypass switch) and I could mod - or even completely rebuild - that thing in about 15 minutes. Point to point baby. OTOH, surface mount? Forget it! I saw the Behringer pedals at NAMM, and I remember being a bit taken back by their appearance. They really did look very Boss-esque. But then again, the newest Digitech pedals look somewhat Boss-like to me too... but not nearly as much as the Behringers do. Do they have a place in the market? Well, the prices are silly low - but I didn't get to hear what they sound like. Assuming Boss doesn't have a trademark on the switchdeck design or general shape, and Behringer didn't cop their circuits, and assuming Behringer DOES change the color schemes, they MIGHT get away with the similar look... but the courts and lawyers will decide that one. It does make me personally feel a bit uneasy though, although I can see the appeal for players on an ultra-tight budget. BTW, in the Mackie vs Behringer lawsuit, apparently one of the terms of the settlement was that the board in question (Eurodesk MX8000 IIRC) could no longer be sold in the USA, although I believe it was still offered for sale in other parts of the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picker Posted March 10, 2005 Share Posted March 10, 2005 Originally posted by Philip O'Keefe: I have a LPB-1 (same as the 2, but in a smaller case, with a different type of bypass switch) and I could mod - or even completely rebuild - that thing in about 15 minutes. Point to point baby. Could you build one from scatch? I have been looking for an LPB 2 for a long time now... Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudcat Posted March 10, 2005 Share Posted March 10, 2005 Originally posted by picker: Originally posted by Philip O'Keefe: I have a LPB-1 (same as the 2, but in a smaller case, with a different type of bypass switch) and I could mod - or even completely rebuild - that thing in about 15 minutes. Point to point baby. Could you build one from scatch? I have been looking for an LPB 2 for a long time now... Here's a LINK to schematics & build instructions for either an LPB-1 or LPB-2 clone. Knock yerself out! Mudcat's music on Soundclick "Work hard. Rock hard. Eat hard. Sleep hard. Grow big. Wear glasses if you need 'em."-The Webb Wilder Credo- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip OKeefe Posted March 10, 2005 Share Posted March 10, 2005 Yes, I could build one from scratch, and with the link (above) from Mudcat, you should be able to too - if you have the basic soldering skills required for the job. It certainly qualifies as a simple / easy DIY project, and would be a good introductory project for someone who had never built anything DIY before. And if this simple circuit is still too intimidating for you, any local electronics repair shop / tech should be able to assemble one for you in nothing flat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Geoff Posted March 11, 2005 Share Posted March 11, 2005 Philip O'Keefe said: BTW, in the Mackie vs Behringer lawsuit, apparently one of the terms of the settlement was that the board in question (Eurodesk MX8000 IIRC) could no longer be sold in the USA, although I believe it was still offered for sale in other parts of the world. It'd be worth looking in eBay UK if you're interested in one of those. The German eBay is pretty big too, but I don't speak de German(!?).... "When the power of love overcomes the love of power the World will know Peace": Jimi Hendrix http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=738517&content=music The Geoff - blame Caevan!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picker Posted March 11, 2005 Share Posted March 11, 2005 Originally posted by ymirld: Personaly, when I buy equipment, I look for the best value. I bought a Behringer mixer because dollar for dollar, it was my best option, and I have been completely satisfied with it. Their mic preamps, on the other hand, didn't suit me, so I spent more money on a preamp that that did. I'll give their stomp boxes a try and if they present a better price/quality value, I'll definatly pick a few up. While I agree that value and bang for the buck are valid criterion for purchasing decisions, and a lot of this stuff is way overpriced anyway, the long-term best decision would be to pay the extra money to a company that invests it in R&D for new and better products, so they can stay in business and bring out new and better "gears", as it were... Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philter Posted March 11, 2005 Share Posted March 11, 2005 Originally posted by ymirld: I just came upon this site while doing research on this topic. I'm an econ student doing research for grad school and I'm using Behringer's business model as one of my examples. Behringer isn't doing anything new. Other companies in almost every field do the exact same thing. That's why we have patents and copyrights for new products and why those patents and copyrights also expire. In the pharmaceutical industry, one company will invest millions, if not billions, of dollars researching and developing a new drug. When the patent on that drug is expired, other companies begin producing the exact same drug, and selling it as a generic alternative. This gives the developing company a chance to profit from their investment, but prevents them from monopolizing the drug, which would hurt the consumer. I know the laws are a little bit differant for the pharmaceutical industry, but the reasoning is still the same. Behringer is offering a "generic" model of some of these other products. For those consumers who dislike generic products, don't buy them, for those who prefer generic products, go for it, but it's good to give consumers a choice. I think consumer response to Behringer is interesting because some people like their products, but somehow feel that their business practices are inethical, so they take a "moral" stand to not buy their products. Do these same people pay for brandname prescription drugs because they feel it is inethical to produce generics? Or do they stay away from generic foods at the grocery store, generic consumer electronics (especially TVs, VCRs, and DVD players), or generic clothing and shoes (much of which are copied from brandname fasion designer's hard work and creativity)? Morality is obviously a personal choice and I'm not questioning anyones personal beliefs on Behringer's practices, but to be fair, we shouldn't really judge them any harder than we do the other generic-producing companies. Many of the tech products we use, especially computer hardware & software, have evolved from "stolen" R&D, so I think it's kind of funny to see some people bash Behringer's practices on an internet forum, when the majority of the hardware and software they are using has evolved from simular practices. Personaly, when I buy equipment, I look for the best value. I bought a Behringer mixer because dollar for dollar, it was my best option, and I have been completely satisfied with it. Their mic preamps, on the other hand, didn't suit me, so I spent more money on a preamp that that did. I'll give their stomp boxes a try and if they present a better price/quality value, I'll definatly pick a few up. Great first post; what a lot of great points you made! ---------------------------- Phil Mann http://www.wideblacksky.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatgazzoo Posted March 17, 2005 Share Posted March 17, 2005 Regarding the new BEHRINGER STOMP BOXES..... i called Behringer in Washington and talked to the tech , who IS a guitar player and I asked him not to bullshit me.... do these boxes sound good or not.... i asked..... he assured me as a guitar player they sound like the real deal and are NOT noisy. I think Behringer IS in fact revolutionizing the pedal industry by making them SUPER AFFORDABLE TO EVERYONE... keep your eyes on MAY / JUNE.. thanks for reading Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dougsthang Posted March 17, 2005 Share Posted March 17, 2005 Originally posted by greatgazzoo: Regarding the new BEHRINGER STOMP BOXES..... i called Behringer in Washington and talked to the tech , who IS a guitar player and I asked him not to bullshit me.... do these boxes sound good or not.... i asked..... he assured me as a guitar player they sound like the real deal and are NOT noisy. I think Behringer IS in fact revolutionizing the pedal industry by making them SUPER AFFORDABLE TO EVERYONE... keep your eyes on MAY / JUNE.. thanks for reading Revolutionary???? how is making something dirt cheap revolutionary? If you look around there are plenty of inexpensive off shore stomp boxes. These pedals are nothing more than re- badged Chinese knockoffs. In fact these same pedals have been out for sometime from a Chinese manufacturer, Behringer has done nothing more than to put there name on them and give them a paint job. Revolutionary? please..... overheard street personality on Venice Beach "Man, that Bullshit is Bulllshhittt...." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darklava Posted March 17, 2005 Share Posted March 17, 2005 Yeh I don't buy that either,sumtin smells fishy. The story of life is quicker then the blink of an eye, the story of love is hello, goodbye. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatgazzoo Posted March 25, 2005 Share Posted March 25, 2005 Hmmmmmmm...... are you guys SUPER INVESTIGATIVE REPORTERS.... hell bent on exposing THE TRUTH of the STOMPBOX crime-of-the-century... HOW THE HELL DO YOU KNOW WHAT BEHRINGER DID.. do you have a STOMPBOX SCANNER..... and heard the Germans conspiring to sell $24.99 peices of crap that will rattle the guitar world. You didnt mention WHAT THESE CHINESE BOXES WERE... Moo Goo Guy Pan Electronics? Back up your allegations. I talked to the source..... OK HE LIED ,YOU HAVE THE BIBLE...... COOL.. thanks for the warning. You'll probably buy 10 of them....... lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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