swing eighths of jazz masters

[Jazz+]

Posted by "savage" on the other forum:

 

http://www.learnjazzpiano.com/citadel/scotcit.mvc?intro_off=1&action=forum&sub=display_thread&id=31805&bid=

 

"When it comes to swing feel, i think Kenny Kirkland was a hell of a player. In fact, i wrote an article a few years back where i analyzed his lines in digital spectrograms. That way i could see the exact timing and amplitude of every note in his lines. This is what he does most of the time:

 

He accents all the offbeats heavily unless there are melodic leaps in the line, in which case he accents the high notes.

 

When the offbeats are accented, he plays straight eights. In fact, he even makes the offbeat notes longer than the downbeat notes sometimes. He also places his downbeats behind the drummers downbeats, so if the drummer is playing with a triplet feel the upbeats are syncronized.

 

When the downbeats are accented however, the swing ratio is very high. In slower tempos the upbeats are often shorter than sixteenth notes. The downbeats are syncronized with the drummers´.

 

Kenny Kirkland was heavily influenced by Herbie Hancock, and though i haven´t studied Herbie´s phrasing in spectrograms I can hear these tendencies in his playing as well."

 

Savage

[latchmo]

Jazzwee I'm flattered to be quoted in your signature.

You know that my tongue was buried deep in my cheek when I wrote that.

 

This is an interesting topic. As I'm not a jazzer and I've never analyzed or studied the particular style of any particular musician to the extent as some others here have, I can't honestly talk about old fashioned swing or modern swing. I can't explain in technical detail why some music swings more or less than others. I'm not knocking those that do analyze music to that extent, but I personally find it difficult to explain a feel in words. That's just where I'm coming from.

 

For me, interesting rhythms, like dynamics are all about contrast. I hate to talk about a percentage of swing, but for the sake of discussion here I will. For example, if the rhythm section is swinging at 50% and the soloist can weave in and out of that percentage by swinging at 30% and then changing to 70% and then maybe playing straight up, then joining the others at 50% - that's where the magic happens for me both as a performer and a listener. It's that rhythmic roller coaster of tension and release. I don't believe you can apply any textbook formula as every situation is different.

 

"You've got to move it, move it".

[Jazzwee]

All in good fun though latchmo

 

If one wants to emulate the swing styles, some analysis is required, unless you only want to play one particular way. But as I have learned, swing is not a focus on percentages but a decision on where to accent. And yet this whole thread is focused on percentages.

 

We have all listened to fantastic swinging lines by guys like Wynton Kelly. He swings very hard but it doesn't sound like Lawrence Welk, yet both swing to the same degree. What's the difference? Isn't that worth discussing?

 

I don't buy that this is as some sacred indescribeable feeling thing. My teacher can emulate any swing style. He did it by careful analysis of the playing of the masters. To me, learning swing styles is just part of the vocabulary and mixing up this vocabulary is part of the artistry.

[latchmo]

AcCeNtS - aCcEnTs - AccEnTs -

[Manhunter]

Jazzwee,

 

Thanks for the new signature

 

Dave

[kanker.]

Tonight, I promise to swing the most on the and of 4.

[Jazzwee]

Originally posted by kanker.:

Tonight, I promise to swing the most on the and of 4.

I'll be checking up on you K. Have decided what percentage you're going to use tonight?

[Billdar]

I wonder if the lack of ability to accent individual notes on a B3 clone might have something to do with the ease I have "swinging" with piano, EP, jazz guitar and flute patches on my S90 relative to the B3 clone. I originally thought it had something to do with the unweighted B3 clone keys, which require a very different, and light, touch. But after experimenting with using the B3 clone to play the S90 patches, I don't think that this is the case.

 

With the Hammond clone, I see that much more of my improvising consists of cascades of 16th notes interspersed with Jimmy Smith inspired B3 cliches that have been used forever. I need to do something about this!

 

Thinking more about this, I wonder if the separate triggering of the 9 contacts on a real Hammond B3 key enables some notes to trigger "unaccented". If so, I sure would like to have a clone that duplicates this. Come on, Clavia!

 

Cheers.....

 

[Finale]

The evolution of swing :

 

http://www.1st-beginners-golf-swing-tips.com/assets/images/golf-swing-follow-through.jpg

[kanker.]

Originally posted by Billdar:

I wonder if the lack of ability to accent individual notes on a B3 clone might have something to do with the ease I have "swinging" with piano, EP, jazz guitar and flute patches on my S90 relative to the B3 clone. I originally thought it had something to do with the unweighted B3 clone keys, which require a very different, and light, touch. But after experimenting with using the B3 clone to play the S90 patches, I don't think that this is the case.

 

With the Hammond clone, I see that much more of my improvising consists of cascades of 16th notes interspersed with Jimmy Smith inspired B3 cliches that have been used forever. I need to do something about this!

 

Thinking more about this, I wonder if the separate triggering of the 9 contacts on a real Hammond B3 key enables some notes to trigger "unaccented". If so, I sure would like to have a clone that duplicates this. Come on, Clavia!

 

Cheers.....

 

This is what the volume pedal is for.

[kanker.]

Originally posted by Jazzwee:

Originally posted by kanker.:

Tonight, I promise to swing the most on the and of 4.

I'll be checking up on you K. Have decided what percentage you're going to use tonight?

Man, I swung 100% tonight. It was so heavy. You all really missed some seriously brilliantly heavy stuff tonight.

[Jazzwee]

Hey that's cool man. That would have been fun to see.

[Finale]

Originally posted by kanker.:

This is what the volume pedal is for.

 

Or one can always create a velocity sensitive B3 patch.

[kanker.]

Originally posted by Jazzwee:

Hey that's cool man. That would have been fun to see.

Yeah, I wish I coulda seen it too.

[Bobadohshe]

I'm new to this forum but as someone who plays and studys jazz all the time I have a couple observations I'd like to humbly share. First of all I think breaking down the elements of what makes different players swing is far from a waste of time. This kind of analysis and thought about playing styles is very valuable. You may never be able to lay out a list of 5 things that make Wynton Kelly or Barry Harris or Keith or Chick sound exactly like they do, but you'd better believe that there are very real answers and explanations as to what is going on with the time. Knowing this of course isn't the be all and end all of being able to play great yourself, just like knowing what scales to use over every chord change doesn't make you a great soloist either, but it is some information that can help and get your thinking and incorporating things into your own style. I say anaylze on! I love some of the observations that have already been made. What Marino said about Herbie about him being in control whether he's behind or he's rushing was IMHO right on the money. Herbie will stretch the beat like taffy, but wherever he lands you know he's brought you there along the hippest road possible metrically and harmonically.

And lastly I'd like to say that I disagree with the idea that jazz is headed towards straight 8ths with the youth, although I concede that there are more people doing it than before. Living in L.A. I get to see guys like Gerald Clayton play all the time, and he swings harder than many cats twice his age.

[Tusker]

Originally posted by Bobadohshe:

And lastly I'd like to say that I disagree with the idea that jazz is headed towards straight 8ths with the youth, although I concede that there are more people doing it than before.

I agree. I don't think the most useful question is how much one swings. You swing to get a feel, and it interacts with the other elements such as accents as many have pointed out. Besides straight 8ths don't exist (thanks Cydonia ).

 

I think analysis is useful for some purposes. I understand the fear of making rigid rules. That would not be useful to me. I like a number of north african and asian rhythmic influences, and many of these influences have "kin" in swing, afro-cuban, etc. Some analysis is helpful in finding connections where they superficially don't seem to exist.

 

Jerry

[ADino]

3 CD's that are always in my car,

Codes From The Underground-Wynton-Kenny Kirkland is (or was?)just a killer.

2 Blocks From The Edge- M Brecker-Joey Calderasso.

4 or More-Miles-Young Herbie.

I also love just about every other player mentioned in this thread. Theres def different styles, but they all come from certain killer players of the past.