stoo schultz Posted November 22, 2006 Share Posted November 22, 2006 [Responding to the OP here -- I haven't read a fraction of the replies . . . . ] Am is the key on the LMF recording, with starting chord G. I've played it in many keys with different singers. I prefer Jose Feliciano's version, which as I recall is also in Am. Never liked the Doors much. Just my personal taste Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stepay Posted November 22, 2006 Share Posted November 22, 2006 Originally posted by garrafon: Originally posted by Is There Gas in the Car?: Originally posted by soundscape: [qb] If you want some rubbish material to dismiss, try... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEcFOCOWU7U Are you crazy? What an awesome song and even better video. I'm sure Dave would approve of its fine, highly skilled presentation. To bring this thread around full circle...what key was that version of Macarena done in?? Agreed. ZZ Top is awesome. Love their stuff. Steve (Stevie Ray) "Do the chickens have large talons?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundscape Posted November 22, 2006 Share Posted November 22, 2006 Originally posted by stepay: Originally posted by garrafon: Originally posted by Is There Gas in the Car?: Originally posted by soundscape: [qb] If you want some rubbish material to dismiss, try... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEcFOCOWU7U Are you crazy? What an awesome song and even better video. I'm sure Dave would approve of its fine, highly skilled presentation. To bring this thread around full circle...what key was that version of Macarena done in?? Agreed. ZZ Top is awesome. Love their stuff. ZZ Top are cool... but just to be clear... the "rubbish material to dismiss" was the Macarena. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundscape Posted November 22, 2006 Share Posted November 22, 2006 Originally posted by linwood: But, then again, I like legs. Reminds me of Rodney..."I'm an ass man. Eveybody always says, Hey, you're an ass man." Heh... everyone likes legs... asses? I dunno. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundscape Posted November 22, 2006 Share Posted November 22, 2006 Originally posted by burningbusch: Thanks for the chart soundscape.You're welcome. I'm not an NPR-type, but it does appear they agree with me as in: "compared to the tons of completely vacuous shit (pick your poison) that has passed for music in the last ten years or so, they (The Doors) come off as musical geniuses." How do you definite "vacuous sh*t" though? Does this (Carole King) qualify? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3TkI9qh5hY (I'm sure some might say so...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dementedchord Posted November 22, 2006 Share Posted November 22, 2006 why am i in this hand basket???? and where are we going????? "style is determined not by what you can play but what you cant...." dave brubeck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burningbusch Posted November 22, 2006 Author Share Posted November 22, 2006 Alright, so what key do you play Bobby Caldwell's "What you won't do for love?" Busch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnegrad Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 Fm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundscape Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 Never played it, but good song. This "tab" was done by Andrew Rogers, so I expect it's pretty accurate: http://www.guitaretab.com/c/caldwell-bobby/2910.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundscape Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 Originally posted by dementedchord: why am i in this hand basket???? and where are we going????? Eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dementedchord Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 hell in a handbasket... a comment on the npr list... and the dumbing down of our art... "style is determined not by what you can play but what you cant...." dave brubeck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliffk Posted November 25, 2006 Share Posted November 25, 2006 Originally posted by soundscape: Nah, structure is always key. Get the chorus (or refrain) in under the first minute, etc., etc. Yeah sure, it's not 1000 bars of reharmonization type structure. Don't need great lyrics. You need a hook that people sing in the shower. Soundscape, from your posts I'm getting that you're a pop songwriter or producer. Am I warm? YouTube music Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted November 26, 2006 Share Posted November 26, 2006 Originally posted by stepay: Got another one in agreement with this. Some rock and roll songs are just magic, and if you tried to decipher why, you'd be stuck. The Doors had that magic. I'm coming in WAYYYY late on this one, but I'm coming in anyway. Partially because Dave invited "those who deal with words" to critique the Doors' lyrics. The Doors didn't have magic, they had a mystique. That mystique was firmly rooted in the dark sex-god that fronted their band. That's what made them popular, and the fact is they weren't really all that popular when he was alive because, well, when it all came down to it, he was really just a drunken a**hole, and he showed it every time they went onstage. Ray's keyboard work was solid, for sure, but Robbie Krieger couldn't play his way out of a wet paper bag at that time in his life, and John Densmore was on auto-pilot most of the time. Jim Morrison's lyrics were juvenile trying-oh-so-hard-to-be abstract, and failing miserably at it. Robbie wrote "Light My Fire", and it was a piece of crap. His solo was beyond boring - a veritable noodle-fest. Jim took it down a whole other level when he destroyed what little melody Robbie actually wrote in favor of that two-note drone in the verse. As to Jim and his lyrical work, forget it. He couldn't write worth a damn when he wasn't tripping, and when he was, it was sporadic flashes of brilliance in between mountains of half-ass psychedelic tripe. His fascination with the Oedipus complex was ludicrous, and he never explored his images enough to make them remotely interesting. Case in point: from "The End" "Ride the snake - to the lake - the ancient lake - the snake he's long - 7 miles - ride the snake" Great. So you've given us a 7 mile long snake and an ancient lake. Convenient for you that it rhymes, but hellaciously boring to the listener, because the image isn't fleshed out at all. As a counterpoint, the man he tried so hard to emulate in his lyric, E.E. Cummings: "All in green went my love riding On a great horse of gold into the silver dawn." First three lines and already the image is vivid and alive, and he's barely begun. Jim was too lazy to go deeper into any of his imagery, so we're left with scraps of ideas, none of which were ever truly explored. Yes, he had his moments of genius - most were enshrined on "An American Prayer" - some great lines in that series. Too bad he couldn't stay sober long enough to grow from there... The Doors were a product of the terrible curse Mike Patton (Faith No More, Fantomas, Mr. Bungle, etc) enshrined in his soliloquy from "Star A.D." (FNM - King for a Day, Fool for a Lifetime, 1995) "Dying is dry, like a fact of history And when you die, you'll become something worse than dead. You'll be come a legend" A bunch of loud, obnoxious music I USED to make with friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Heins Posted November 26, 2006 Share Posted November 26, 2006 Here's inane- I love to love you baby....now sing it for 4 or 5 minutes over and over and over and.....ding ding ding, think we have a winner! Darkon the Incandescent http://www.billheins.com/ Hail Vibrania! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wades_keys Posted November 26, 2006 Share Posted November 26, 2006 I've always felt "Light My Fire" has a rather unconventional and very unique chord progression which is at least deserving of some respect musically. I mean with all the standard pop progressions around at the time this song always got my attention. Love the way it starts on G, then eventually resolves to the A minor, F#m vamp. It aint' jazz but it sure beats the boring I,IV, V or II, V, I based tripe... And Manzarek did a lot to advance the use of Keys in Rock and Roll - right up there with Emerson in that regard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundscape Posted November 27, 2006 Share Posted November 27, 2006 Originally posted by cliffk: Originally posted by soundscape: Nah, structure is always key. Get the chorus (or refrain) in under the first minute, etc., etc. Yeah sure, it's not 1000 bars of reharmonization type structure. Don't need great lyrics. You need a hook that people sing in the shower. Soundscape, from your posts I'm getting that you're a pop songwriter or producer. Am I warm? LOL, well, it's not my "day job," but it's definitely an interest of mine. I like all sorts of stuff though... The guy on the B3 is This van Leer of the prog band "Focus." I don't expect that to be a #1 single any time soon though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stepay Posted November 27, 2006 Share Posted November 27, 2006 Griffinator, Cool thing about music is that it's subjective. The Doors isn't everyone's cup of tea, but man do I love them and can pick out reasons why all of them are decent musicians rather than the other way around. I'm not a Pink Floyd fan, and usually when I say so people think I'm an idiot. Oh well. Just never appealed to me. Then someone says that apparently I've never been stoned because Pink Floyd is the best music to get stoned to, and I'll say, "You're right! I've never been stoned!" Just another thing that never appealed to me. Steve (Stevie Ray) "Do the chickens have large talons?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted November 27, 2006 Share Posted November 27, 2006 By all means, Stepay, you'll never hear me call someone an idiot for liking the Doors or not liking PF. Doesn't mean I can't crucify the band for its glaring and very quantifiable faults. Fact is, I loved PotUS - even though everything in my analytical mind screamed that they sucked. Same thing with Marcy Playground, Weezer (although less so - Rivers Cuomo writes insidiously good melodies, both for the lyrics and for his leads) and numerous other bands I "like"... Point being, "liking" a band is purely subjective. However, their overall musicianship, lyrical skill, et al is very quantifiable, and can be broken down and assessed by known standards. Moral of the story: Don't be offended when someone tells you a band you like is crap and then proceeds to break down valid reasons why. They don't have to be musical geniuses to be able to latch on to the emotional portion of your brain. A bunch of loud, obnoxious music I USED to make with friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundscape Posted November 28, 2006 Share Posted November 28, 2006 Originally posted by wades_keys: I've always felt "Light My Fire" has a rather unconventional and very unique chord progression which is at least deserving of some respect musically. I mean with all the standard pop progressions around at the time this song always got my attention. Love the way it starts on G, then eventually resolves to the A minor, F#m vamp. It aint' jazz but it sure beats the boring I,IV, V or II, V, I based tripe... You're right that it's not just that, but... Uhmm... What other music around that time...? The Beatles? Carole King? (It ain't jazz? Oh, well... must be "inferior"... ) Harmonic reduction isn't necessarily a good way to "judge" a song. All sorts of interesting chord progressions can be found "off the shelf," but it's the placement and overall arrangement and particularly melody that count. Besides, those are fundamentals so it's really damaging to have it in your head that it's "tripe"... it's good to go through various movements and then resolve with vi-ii-V-I. It's a very strong progression but overuse can cause lose the power and render it boring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundscape Posted November 28, 2006 Share Posted November 28, 2006 Originally posted by Griffinator: However, their overall musicianship, lyrical skill, et al is very quantifiable, and can be broken down and assessed by known standards. Moral of the story: Don't be offended when someone tells you a band you like is crap and then proceeds to break down valid reasons why. They don't have to be musical geniuses to be able to latch on to the emotional portion of your brain. It seems you've mostly used is the "English teacher" methodology of looking at the "meaning," which doesn't say whether the music is very good or not--actually, that method it doesn't say much about whether a story is properly constructed or not, which begins in the domain of plot structure. Anyway, suffice to say that Jim Morrison may well have been talking out of his a*s (if you want to know about philosophy, you'll find out a whole lot more in the respective section of your local bookstore than by listening to any 3 minute song) but what about the music? "Happy Birthday" is hardly the world's most complex tune, but a brief analysis will demonstrate that it has a basic solid structure to it. Songs which work on the emotions usually do so for musical reasons--if not, then more than likely you've been conned by mythology (read: marketing), or have formed associations that "take you back" to a certain time and place, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted November 28, 2006 Share Posted November 28, 2006 Originally posted by soundscape: It seems you've mostly used is the "English teacher" methodology of looking at the "meaning," which doesn't say whether the music is very good or not--actually, that method it doesn't say much about whether a story is properly constructed or not, which begins in the domain of plot structure. Anyway, suffice to say that Jim Morrison may well have been talking out of his a*s (if you want to know about philosophy, you'll find out a whole lot more in the respective section of your local bookstore than by listening to any 3 minute song) but what about the music? I kept my commentary on the music to a relative minimum, but it's definitely there. Jim's vocal melody (if that's what you'd like to call it ) is perfect for his vocal abilities - that's the bad news. Two note verses, occasional screaming, whether in key or not, lots of following-the-chord-roots and other such boring nonsense, was the rule in their songs rather than the exception. I already stated my opinion of Robbie's guitar playing. 40 years later, he's developed into a pretty accomplished jazz player, but 1966 Robbie would barely survive an audition for Nirvana... As to the songs themselves? You really don't want me to go there. Unimaginative 12-bar blues most of the time, with the occasionally foray into two-chord nonsense (Break On Through, Hello I Love You, LA Woman, The End, the list goes on and on) and 99% of it is garden variety "standard pop" song structure - verse-chorus-verse-chorus-bridge-chorus-byebye... What's so interesting about that? Again, there's nothing wrong with a song, or even a band's overall body of work making an emotional impression on you. No one can criticize that. However, it's pretty tough to defend a band's musicianship when it exists only at the most rudimentary level... honestly, I was writing more complex songs at age 12 than I've ever heard from the Doors. Not a brag on me, more a slag on them, because what I was writing at age 12 was just north of total crap. A bunch of loud, obnoxious music I USED to make with friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BonsoWonderDog Posted December 16, 2006 Share Posted December 16, 2006 Originally posted by Griffinator: Moral of the story: Don't be offended when someone tells you a band you like is crap and then proceeds to break down valid reasons why. They don't have to be musical geniuses to be able to latch on to the emotional portion of your brain. This is possibly the most sensible and wisest thing I've heard on this topic. Well done Griffinator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundscape Posted December 16, 2006 Share Posted December 16, 2006 Originally posted by BonsoWonderDog: Originally posted by Griffinator: Moral of the story: Don't be offended when someone tells you a band you like is crap and then proceeds to break down valid reasons why. They don't have to be musical geniuses to be able to latch on to the emotional portion of your brain. This is possibly the most sensible and wisest thing I've heard on this topic. Well done Griffinator. Er... except that is the whole point of music, and getting the "basic structure" right (e.g., "rules"/guidelines of tonal music) works to achieve it. Also, many so-called "musical geniuses" fail on that count... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wades_keys Posted December 16, 2006 Share Posted December 16, 2006 You're right that it's not just that, but... Uhmm... What other music around that time...? The Beatles? Carole King? (It ain't jazz? Oh, well... must be "inferior"... ) Harmonic reduction isn't necessarily a good way to "judge" a song. I think you mis-understood me a little. I'm replying to those that are using pure "harmonic analysis" or whatever to judge a tune. The "jazz" comment was meant to point out that it will not match the harmonic complexity of even a simple jazz tune. In truth, I can't stand Jazz. It just doesn't do anything for me; and no, it's not because I have an un-trained ear, I just prefer more simple stuff which has an emotional connection and I have yet to find that conection through Jazz Music. That doesn't make it bad, nor does it imply that I have a wooden ear as some on this board seem to imply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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