Are keyboard players becoming a dying breed?

[Jazzwee]

Dick, Just be glad you don't play the tuba or something like that. You're cooler than the tambourine. At least we're cooler than someone else.

[Dick Ward MP Hall of Fame]

Hey, whatever I play is cool. I'm Dick Ward.

[DanL]

I agree with the thought that there isn't any kind of "arms race". Keys cost about the same, or less in many cases, than they did 20 years ago and they do a lot more. For under 2k you can buy a pretty top of the line board. It doesn't have to be an 8k Oasys to get the job done. I have a fair amount invested in my gear, but I always have, thats part of being a keyboard player. It seems the average replacement cost for a board for me is about 1500. 20 years ago I had a JX10 that cost 2k, a Juno 106 I got used for 800, and a Rhodes that I had bought new a few years earlier for 900. Today I use an S90ES I bought for 2k, and a Nord Electro I bought for 1800 about 5 years ago. Pretty much the same cost for the rig, and this one does a lot more than that one did.

 

There is no shortage of gigs for key players around here. There aren't that many of us. I don't think I could quit my job, but I could play 7 nights a week doing walk ons. Right now I have my main band, a side project that is still rehearsing, and a side project from the side project that is a dance type show band that I did a fill in for, and they want me to do more with them. So, 3 bands, plus a couple other bands who I work with on occasion, and I'm not even looking for extra work. It just comes my way. There are other players out there in our area, but not many who are experienced and professional about it.

[Mr. Nightime]

I used to have a Yamaha CP-70B that cost $3500. I now use a Korg SP-200. $900, sounds better, feels better, easier to maintain, more portable, and more versatile. What arms race?

[bluesdisciple]

I believe that yes, keyboard players are a diminishing breed. Rap and hip hop uses synths and keys alot, but much is remixes and snippets from older songs. When there is keys it is basic simple chords over the beat. Not much to it.

 

Younger folks gravitate more to guitarists because the keys have moved to the background. There ain't no more players like Wakeman, Emerson, Billy Joel, Elton and so on where the keys were THE main part of the music, at the forefront of the stage and the band's music was incomplete without 'em. Even some big bands have keys as an integral part of their sound, but the keyboardist isn't part of the band (i.e., Third Day).

 

I do think though that current Contemporary Christian Music is serving to revive the role of keys in that music. The Dove awards had keys prominent with most of the acts and the keys are prominent in most new CCM music. But then again I am biased as that is the kind of music I play.

 

I don't see cost as a factor because a decent entry level Korg or Roland costs as much as a Les Paul these days.

 

Just my $.02

 

BD

[Root]

Originally posted by bluesdisciple:

There ain't no more players like Wakeman, Emerson, Billy Joel, Elton and so on where the keys were THE main part of the music, at the forefront of the stage and the band's music was incomplete without 'em. BD

What about Ben Folds, Coldplay, Fiona Apple, Norah Jones...? None of them compare to Emerson, but they still count, right? Let's not lose hope here

[Dick Ward MP Hall of Fame]

I totally agree with keys moving to the background, and it really kills me that this is true. About the prices though...

 

A beginner can get a brand new Fender Strat, not a knockoff or a squire, the real thing, for $400-$500 and use it his whole career. He can get a $100 wah pedal, a $100 distortion pedal and a decent micable amp and be set. To get a new keyboard, I'm looking at the Fusion or TR61 at $1,000. If someone were to get a $500 keyboard, they'd certainly have to upgrade before too long. There's a reason budget keys are budget keys

[Jazzwee]

The image of piano has always been conservative. Except for the occasional ELP, it has been given the image matching a serious musician. That's why we associate classical with piano.

 

Yes you look back at Elton and Billy. But in proportion to the number of guitar based pop-stars, I don't think it ever was any different.

 

So I think nothing has really changed over the years. Keyboards are still generally in the background in the pop music styles.

 

Keyboards/Pianos are more in the non-pop genre. If we're expecting droves of 10 year olds to flock to keyboards, it's not going to happen because it never did even in the past.

 

Nothing is dying if it hasn't changed. So Dick, you're expecting a new boom actually in keyboard playing to equate to success.

 

What I've been saying is that while the live performance role in pop hasn't changed, it's role in the studio has increased dramatically. So the whole role of the keyboard musician has increased, although more in the background.

 

The biggest fear now is that sequencers and keyboardists can take jobs away from bassists and guitar players and drummers -- which by the way, they have, at least in the studios. I'm surprised to hear for example that many recordings use keyboard based 'bass players'.

[Dick Ward MP Hall of Fame]

What about Ben Folds, Coldplay, Fiona Apple, Norah Jones...? None of them compare to Emerson, but they still count, right? Let's not lose hope here

You know young people that like Norah Jones?

 

You know people that like Coldplay?

 

On a more serious note, I've not listened to TOO much of their stuff, but they seem like primarily piano players. I may be wrong. I just don't see a piano player (Elton John included) as a keyboard player, it's different to me, maybe I'm the only one. I just don't really count Rick Wakeman and Tori Amos as playing the same instrument.. seems wrong

[Dick Ward MP Hall of Fame]

Am I posting enough? Sorry, I really dig this thread

 

I understand exactly what you're saying Jazz. No, it's not dying, it's just not improving.

 

Very well put Jazz... thought it makes me wonder if keyboards will end up being studio only and drums will be relegated to only perform live. Hmmm...

[Root]

Originally posted by Dick Ward (MP Hall of Fame Wannabe):

What about Ben Folds, Coldplay, Fiona Apple, Norah Jones...? None of them compare to Emerson, but they still count, right? Let's not lose hope here

You know young people that like Norah Jones?

 

You know people that like Coldplay?

 

On a more serious note, I've not listened to TOO much of their stuff, but they seem like primarily piano players. I may be wrong. I just don't see a piano player (Elton John included) as a keyboard player, it's different to me, maybe I'm the only one. I just don't really count Rick Wakeman and Tori Amos as playing the same instrument.. seems wrong

What is really funny, Dick, is that the answer to both those questions is no. Seriously, I can't think of one person for either question.

 

But yeah, piano players and keyboardists are totally different. At least they keep the keyboard instruments in view of the public. That's good for us, right?

[Eric VB]

Maybe it's all because of that movie "School of Rock"? What a stereotype for a keyboardist, eh?

 

Norah Jones but not Alicia Keys?

 

Just saw a group recently in which the lead blonde female singer occaisionally played keys. Hard to compete with that on stage.

[Blue JC]

Maybe I should have named my post "Are LIVE keyboard players becoming a dying breed?" to more fully get my point across.

 

I'm certainly not complaining about all of the work MidLifeCrisis. It's great for me in the short term. I can pick and choose which gigs to take and raise my minimum where appropriate.

 

But in the long term, this can have dire consequences for us if the younger players are not coming up to fill the vacuum. If bands can't get keyboard players for their gigs, what choice do they have but to learn music without keys. How can this possibly benefit us as a group of performers?

 

When my friend who switched to guitar (he really did get a good used Strat/Twin combo for $500!) mentioned the "arms race" and the $8,000 Oasis, I think the point he was trying to make was that, if he took care of that guitar, it would last him a lifetime. It doesn't matter how well you maintain an electronic keyboard, it will die a heat death in 7 or 8 years of steady gigging. Or, at least, cost more to repair than it's worth.

 

My concern is for the future of live keyboard playing.

[Cliffk]

Originally posted by Karurosu:

Well, i really think that kids got onto the guitar stuff for the "virtuosso" factor that they likely look on them

Too right. Still, it's ironic that this 'virtuosity' is so easily masked by distortion and other effects that make an average player sound rather better than he actually is. The truth is, doing a solo on a keyboard puts you on the spot and shows you up as a player or a chancer. Guitar equipment can and often does hide this deficiency.

[Edgar Summers]

I agree with RABid. I have the best rig I've ever owned with an investment of maybe $3500.

[Edgar Summers]

Sorry! I was responding to something on page 1 and didn't see the other two pages.

[soundscape]

Originally posted by Dick Ward (MP Hall of Fame Wannabe):

What I mean is that the average person (who knows NOTHING about keyboards) has no clue what a soft-synth is (or a module, for that matter.). So when they heard a synthy-sound, they more than likely picture a it being created by a keyboard.

I guess I just don't see the relevence.

'Cause it's about the mass population hearing it's a keyboard sound, you know? It's about your MOTHER knowing this*. (OK, maybe your mother knows all about this stuff.) Like if you asked anyone about Erasure, what instruments do they use? Keyboards! (Now Erasure used soft-synths all over their last album, but people are still gonna think of keyboards. The All Music Guide review says that Vince Clarke "must have dusted off all his old gear." ) And there were tons of bands in the 80's like that! Even think of Whitney Houston's 80's output... Synth sounds all over.

 

OTW people don't make the connection, and then there's the problem that today's "electronic" styles sound like they're created on a computer. And indeed seem to be bereft of strong songwriting and musicianship.

 

To make it cool we need keyboards everywhere, all over, no more "banning" of synth sounds too.

 

If I think of this stuff from my own perspective, I'm always hearing synth sounds... but that doesn't make something cool.

 

Phred makes a good point, and I don't know how many guitar players are 'the best ever' because they have energy and charisma, while having very little actual ability. I bet people look at keyboards a lot differently when you play them though. You look like a musician, not like a guy doing data entry.

Hmm, which musicians are these? When I think of a great guitarist, I think of someone who really can play. That's just awesome to hear (and watch). Though to be honest, most people think it sounds like some guy j**kin' off over his guitar, and that ain't very cool, either.

 

But yeah, maybe you're right and I'm now looking at things from my own perspective, maybe loud guitar and I V vi IV all night seems to be acceptable, it seems, I dunno. Lots of energy but not a great song?

 

 

(*If I ever ask my mother about keyboards, she'll say she doesn't like them. Why? Because they don't sound like real instruments. (?!))

[Dick Ward MP Hall of Fame]

But, they played a midi controller hooked to a soft synth. I dunno, if you asked me, I'd still say keyboards. Why does it matter in relation to this thread?

 

Which guitarists? I've heard people call Eddie Van Halen the best ever, Dimebag Darrel, Kerry King, Eric Clapton, Kurt Cobain... Eddie Van Halen, Dimebag, just eh. Steve Vai, Joe Satriani hold the wank artist titles. I dunno man, I've heard better guitar players than these. Kurt (yes, I've heard it said) wasn't even the best guitar player in Nirvana. People say these guys are the best because they display some skill and are very enjoyable to watch. What does your average person know about guitar ability? Probably not much, but they know who the best is. And no matter who they say, they won't be able to technically say why. They won't say it's because of so and so's amazing sweep picking, or mr. x's string skipping licks. I dunno, I just don't think people care about actual ability as much as musicians think. (forgive me if I rambled and contradicted myself or anything, I'm kind of out of it right now, long day of recording wiped by our forgetting to save and Cubase freezing )

 

 

Cliff, when I solo, I mask my lack of skill with effects too

[soundscape]

Originally posted by Dick Ward (MP Hall of Fame Wannabe):

But, they played a midi controller hooked to a soft synth. I dunno, if you asked me, I'd still say keyboards. Why does it matter in relation to this thread?

Well, let's back up here, I originally said:

 

"Thing is, though, there isn't too much music these days that showcases sounds that could only have come from what most people would consider a keyboard. (e.g., Most people don't know what a soft-synth is, play synthy-sounds and they'll think of a keyboard."

 

Point is, many of the sounds don't actually come from a keyboard, they 'come' from a soft-synth or module, but the average person would hear a synth sound and think of learning a keyboard, right? So by having keyboard sounds, you promote keyboard playing. Yes, once you understand everything then it doesn't matter whether it's from a module or soft-synth, it's still keyboard playing, but I'm talking about people who never heard of MIDI or VSTi here.

 

This is as opposed to having orchestral sounds coming out of a Gigasampler rig (most people don't think of a keyboard) or having music that people think is created on a computer (today's electronica.)

 

I dunno, I can't remember why I said it in the first place now. LOL.

 

Which guitarists? I've heard people call Eddie Van Halen the best ever, Dimebag Darrel, Kerry King, Eric Clapton, Kurt Cobain... Eddie Van Halen, Dimebag, just eh. Steve Vai, Joe Satriani hold the wank artist titles. I dunno man, I've heard better guitar players than these.

Well, I was thinking of the "w*nk" artist type, I like this guy:

 

http://www.guitarplayer.de/_band/videos/ill_be_theredsl.wmv

 

I dunno, I just don't think people care about actual ability as much as musicians think.

The #1 important thing is a great melody and hooks that people can't get the hell out of their head. (Ideally backed up by decent harmony and lyrics, i.e., a great song.)

 

In my experience, most people don't care about MUSIC anywhere near as much as most musicians think.

 

(forgive me if I rambled and contradicted myself or anything, I'm kind of out of it right now, long day of recording wiped by our forgetting to save and Cubase freezing )

Ctrl (or Cmd) + S is your friend.

[Dick Ward MP Hall of Fame]

[Frown] Ctrl (or Cmd) + S is your friend.

yeah, wish I would have thought of that, lol.

[soundscape]

Originally posted by Dick Ward (MP Hall of Fame Wannabe):

What about Ben Folds, Coldplay, Fiona Apple, Norah Jones...? None of them compare to Emerson, but they still count, right? Let's not lose hope here

You know young people that like Norah Jones?

 

You know people that like Coldplay?

I suspect Norah Jones (apart from being borrrrring) promotes the "singer-songwriter" marketing category more than anything. But for sure keeps piano in music with high sales.

 

As for Coldplay, they're more or less good example of one of the main things that's wrong with music sold as "pop" today. "Pop" isn't supposed to be depressing...

[soundscape]

Originally posted by Jazzwee:

Well if you asked my kid when he was 10, he wondered why I was giving him guitar lessons. He was into Rap. They don't use guitars in Rap. So he thought guitars were totally uncool. At that time, he would have considered all the synth effects on a keyboard to be cool for doing hip hop and rap (no music knowledge required).

Exactly. (Or even if it is, perception is that it isn't.)

 

Of course the type of music that is popular at the moment affects what is popular to 10 year olds. Since it is currently Rap, then DJ stuff would be more interesting than any instrument.

I'd suggest the popular market is a bit broader in age range. But otherwise, I totally agree.

[Jazzwee]

Now this is considered heresy per the "Real Men" threads, but the reality is that the smart use of arpeggiators and sequencers are very appealing to audiences. They hear this mass of sound that they've never heard before.

 

So in spite of the need to develop chops for normal musicianship skills (which I do support highly), it is also, I think, quite important to develop the technical keyboarding skills to move to a new generation of sound, even in a live setting.

 

Thus, I think that the use of these tools should actually be encouraged, and not discouraged. To me, the creation of the sounds (even offline) shows creativity and may appear DJ like to others, but this is part of what's new because it cannot easily be duplicated by a keyboardist with only two hands. Audiences don't care how you got there as long as you put up the right show.

 

I listen to some of the arpeggiated sounds on my S90ES and some of this stuff sounds fantastic. I wish I can create more. I don't say this in relation to my genre since I can't really utilize arpeggiation in what I do, but in other genres it would be great.

 

Maintaining an open mind like this, someone might come up with a fantastic new sound that might get a whole generation of kids excited about keyboarding.

[soundscape]

Originally posted by Jazzwee:

Now this is considered heresy per the "Real Men" threads, but the reality is that the smart use of arpeggiators and sequencers are very appealing to audiences. They hear this mass of sound that they've never heard before.

 

So in spite of the need to develop chops for normal musicianship skills (which I do support highly), it is also, I think, quite important to develop the technical keyboarding skills to move to a new generation of sound, even in a live setting.

Absolutely. Though hopefully they won't think you don't need any musical knowledge to do that, which is what I think this "real men" point of view tends to promote... it's absolutely necessary to learn about how to write good music and arrangement.

 

I get the sense that this "chops" and "real men" stuff seems to rate fine motor control and not the ability to create good music.

 

From what I saw, sequencing and arps were dismissed by those with supposed "fine wine" taste in the 80's, including by musicians. I don't think it promoted good music, instead it destroyed synth sounds (and by extension, prominent keyboard playing) from appearing in popular music altogether. It also promoted the view that you don't need to learn music, just need to sit at a computer to create it.

 

We need to find ways to get interesting sounds and quality music out there that appeals, not just try to move times back to the past.

[Jazzwee]

Well said, Soundscape.

 

I do however, believe that chops provide a layer of subtlety to a performance so I certainly would not abandon that as a goal. Chops are more noticeable in piano playing of course but one could combine piano + synth sounds and thus the lack of chops might show.

 

Piano has a distinctly high attack sound that plainly shows any weaknesses in chops such as bad timing or bad dynamics.

 

I remember that when I started playing piano, my musical ability exceeded my chops so I would hide it by playing only organ sounds.

 

I don't say this should be "required" but having excellent chops just opens up more musical possibilities. That's all.

[DanL]

Chops are important, but they are also relative. Piano chops are different from organ chops which are different from synth chops. You can't say that skillful use of a pitch bender isn't something that has to be practiced and perfected- that is chops to me. Someone could be great at that but not good at playing piano. Much like good organ technique- you don't take a piano player and put them on organ and have them sound like an organ player. This girl who plays 2nd keyboard in a side project I'm in is a great church organist and has tons of classical technique. But it doesn't translate to her being able to dig into playing a funky clav or synth part because those chops are not there yet. Even organ parts- the chops needed for church organ are totally different than the chops needed for B3 type parts.

[Bobsk8]

Having played for many, many years, with different bands, I find that quite a few Keyboard players are still trying to play keyboards like they are acoustic pianos. They don't seem to know much about selecting sounds, or what sound goes with which other sound, or how to set up their amps, what kind of keyboards to buy .. etc. The result is that many keyboardists and the instruments they are playing sound pretty lame while they are holding pad chords in a band while the rest of the band is cooking away. Then comes keyboard solo time, and it gets worse, with a lack of creativity , weak chops, and a sound that is thin and buried in the band mix.

 

Since this happens quite often, I think many bands are reluctant to give the keyboardist a solo and the solos are restricted to the guitar or any horns in the band. When I first join a new band and get solo, bandmembers are surprised that something creative and exciting can be played on a keyboard and compete equally with guitars and horns.

 

Good thread, by the way

[DWBass]

I'm just wondering why a keyboardist can't have just one (or 2) decent board (I.E. Triton) and a nicely powered keyboard amp (I.E. Roland KC***)! The keyboardists in my area seem to have 3 (or more) antique boards, some sort of mixer/midi/power amp & monitor extravaganza going on and the need for at least an hour to set up!!

[Jazzwee]

I do agree that different types of playing styles require different kinds of chops. Whatever skills are required, they have to be encouraged. We don't what keyboardists to become labeled as lightweights. But certainly flexibility in understanding the instrument is key.

 

I can't even call myself a keyboardist yet. I don't yet know how to properly use the sounds and arpeggiators to maximum effect. So I understand the skill involved. This skill has been made light of lately and yet I know there is much to learn about it. At the moment, the keyboard is just an electric piano to me.

 

This is ok for what I do but even I want to learn more. I certainly would not label a skilled effects artist in keyboarding as "chop-less". Obviously with non-weighted keys, the required skill is different.

[resigned]

To answer the original question: no. I have parents bringing their kids up to me as I play all the time and say "he/she has a keyboard at home and is learning to play...". On top of that, practically every department store I know of sells some kind of keyboard, even toy stores. Young people are learning keyboards, but many of them don't stick with it. That's also one of the most common things I hear: "I took lessons for X years but I didn't stick with it...". Good for me actually - the fewer competitors I have the better, and truthfully there are some killer keyboardists/pianists in my area so I have to stay sharp to stay employed and that's pretty much always been true. Keyboardists are not a dying breed but great keyboardists will always be a valued asset.

 

BTW: I don't differentiate between "keyboardists" and "pianists" because they all play keys. I've played all kinds of keys professionally and today play grand pianos, digital pianos, romplers/synths/softsynths equally. But my wife gets hung up on the pianist vs. keyboardist thing all the time and it drives me nuts.