Jazz chord progressions?

[David R]

Melody is paramount. Sometimes I'll be thinking "inside" or "outside" or "x substitution". For practice, maybe limit yourself to two different kinds of intervals and try to improvise using just those two intervals (say, semitones and fourths, or minor and major thirds).

 

David

[Jazzwee]

Bloodsample,

 

I like what you've done! This is a good start. Now as you get more advanced, you'll start shooting for more sounds that are not as diatonic (i.e. major scaly, or too heavy on 1-3-5-7 chord tones). Use some of my suggestions above to add to the jazzy spice. Use chromatics more for approach notes and passing tones. It'll make your melodies sing more.

 

Also start thinking about your solo like a story. There should be a beginning a middle and an end. So plan on doing some buildup.

 

I would also let the melody of the original tune to drive you here, just in the spirit of its historical reference (it is a famous tune after all -- for a reason).

 

Another thing unique in jazz is rhythmic phrasing. You're doing your own rhythmic phrasing which is commendable. But this takes study to listen to the rhythmic phrasing of the masters since the phrasing moves the solo to a totally different level.

 

Now that you've gone this far. I advise that you listen to the recordings of the jazz masters since that is where most of us learn the context. Although you didn't want to do this, you should transcribe a solo and attempt to duplicate the phrasing of someone you want to emulate.

 

Most of us will not achieve the greatness of the solos of the masters so I assume there will be a reluctance to post our versions of solos when there are plenty of recordings of BETTER solos out there that you should listen to. As Linwood said, we are all just a bunch of hacks (most of us at least!).

[Edd Z]

The thing to do is keep listening to the masters and try to highlight the changes... btw good use of space, in a lengthy solo the build and climax is essential. The breckers are masters of this!

[Dave Horne]

I really prefer giving concrete advice to students. We can talk about constructing a story, playing outside, playing with the time, or a number of things, but specific, concrete pieces of information have to be given as well.

 

I know that Oscar Peterson (from listening to him and having talked to a student of his), at one time in his life, very systematically worked through all kinds of patterns as well as various scales, etc (and in all keys). I'm sure if Oscar were to give a lesson, he might speak in very general terms if he were addressing guys who could already play extremely well. I think if he were dealing with players who were more or less beginners, he would give very specific, concrete examples to work with.

[bloodsample]

Hey,

 

Jazzwee: Thanks for listening. Just reading your first phrase gave me a boost of confidence. I've come to know you as my teacher in this thread so your approval means a great deal to me .

 

I do listen to jazz masters and analyze their work quite a lot. If I said I didn't want to do it, it's cause I wanted to force you guys to post your own ideas, not refer me to others'.

 

I've tried transcribing Benny Green's solo on "Ain't She Sweet" because that solo really hit me strong, it's so freakin amazing! The guy plays so fast, but every note is hit at the right dynamics and the melody he portrays in his solos is just unbelievable, kind of like a young Oscar Peterson. So anyways, I tried transcibing his solo and it took me maybe 40 minutes to transcribe the first 15 seconds of his solo, I'm not even kidding.... (Although he may not be a "jazz master" per se, he's an amazingly skilled and talented pianist IMO)

 

Even though I just got the first 15 seconds of his solo, it was challenging at first for me to play it along with the record, but once I got it, it was a joy to play. When I looked closely at what he's playing relative to the chord he's soloing over, it all seemed so simple. I mean he closely followed the chord's notes with a few extra flashy fills. It's just the notes he picked and the way he played them that made it so great.

 

I did the same for the piano, sax and trumpet solos on Miles Davis' 10+ minute version of autumn leaves. I transcribed a bit of each instruments' solo and studied it. They all seem to essentially follow the chord's voicing, which was an amazing discovery to me because the solos sound so awesome. It's the melody that they come up with using these few notes that is so impressive.

 

Same is true for Vince Guaraldi's solo on "Oh Tannenbaum", he essentially plays the same blues licks throughout the solo, but it's the way he tweaks it each time that makes it shine. Another great pianist IMO.

 

And finally, my all time favourite tune (I still don't know why, I guess I never get tired of hearing it) is Brubeck's "Kathy's Waltz". This tune is IMO perfect. From the solo to the melody to the arrangement, to everything. Most jazz musicians I talk to never even heard of it. It seems that Brubeck is not that renowned amongst the hardcore jazz guys.

 

People seem to always pick Monk, Tyner, Evans, Jarrett etc as the greatest. These guys are great in applying advanced modern techniques (well, don't know about Monk, he seems high all the time ). A good jazz piano player to me is someone who can "touch" you with his solo, as cheezy as that sounds. So with the latter classification, I would have to say my favourite are: Benny Green, Dave Brubeck and Vince Guaraldi. Though I know most people here would disagree.

 

Anyways, that was a much longer reply than I intended and with the risk of throwing this educational thread into a "who's your favourite pianist" poll, I'll stop typing now.

 

Thanks again for all your replies and great knowledge. I really appreciate it.

 

If you come up with random theory you want to sure, feel free to post here (not that I have any control over this ).

 

BS>

[moj]

Here's a live performance of Autumn Leaves I did a few years ago at an outdoor cafe. It was recorded from a boom-box, hence the recording quality is pretty lousy (I cleaned it up a bit, though). This was a jam session so please forgive the few warts here and there.

AUTUMN LEAVES

 

I liked your recording, you put much thought in your playing. I would suggest that to improve your phrasing to keep it organized in groups of 2, 4, 8, 16 measures. It was suggested that you should have a beginning, middle and end to soloing; practice that approach in all your phrasing. Also, quoting *Oleo* was real cool . Quotes, as you know, is a jazz improv technique that is very effective when it's use succinctly and unexpectedly. I played with a sax player who would quote a theme/riff so seamlessly in his solos that it would bring a few smiles and chuckles from the band and audience.

[niacin]

Originally posted by bloodsample:

Right now I feel that when I play lead sheets, my voicings sound really basic and more pop-jazz than jazz-jazz if you kow what I mean. I mean there's only so much flavour you can get with 3-7 voicings. When I see a chord like "Abm7b9" or whatever, I play litteraly that. But I know that there are variations and voicings for this that would make it sound more modern. I want to know what people think about when they pick voicings and add color tones.

This is exactly what George Duke walks you through in his instructional jazz piano video. He's talking to people who know their ii-V-I progressions and he starts with the basic voicings you are bored with and gradually changes and colours them. Worth a look:

 

George Duke Instructional DVD Volumes 1 & 2

 

from:

 

http://www.merchantmanager.com/gduke/

[linwood]

Here's a quick 8 bars, but you can see from this where I'd go.(I just did this in like 10 mins, so beware...)pretty normal stuff. On the F, I'm thinkin' -9, on the Am7b5, I'm going dim and on the Gm, I'm doing a little chromatic turnaround. Just because the chart hangs on it, doesn't mean you have to.Anyway, this is kind of how I'd approach it, but for me to do it correctly I need a smokey room and a few cocktails.Not too much inspiration in here right now. leaves

[Jazzwee]

Wow Linwood, that's a nice full arrangement for 10 minutes! And I'm amazed at your generosity in sharing knowledge and time. You're pretty cool man.

[Jazzwee]

Bloodsample, where were we? I have been so tied up today I haven't been able to get back to this.

 

So continuing your comments about transcription, Benny Green is fine. Brubeck is pretty outstanding too so I don't know who your jazz friends are but my teachers have always pointed out Benny Green, and Brubeck is still one of the old masters. Transcribing your heroes is great because then you learn to pick up their style. When you do this, pay attention to the phrasing like I said. Simply playing the same notes will not get you to sound the same.

 

Since you sound like an experienced musician just learning a new genre, this shouldn't be too bad of a journey.

 

Let's address a specific thing -- melody. Since you picked on this little comment of mine. Melody, unfortunately is not something that is taught. If left on your own, chances are you will pick a melody based on major scale of the I chord. This is because to me this is the easiest to hear and is of course the standard sound in pop/rock.

 

I'll tell you why jazz musicians play around with scales a lot. This is my understanding of the history. Guys like Coltrane played and people listening heard some unique sounds. Stuff that wasn't in the regular scale (minor or major as appropriate). So people backwardly constructed scales to duplicate the color of the sounds made by guys like Coltrane. One of this scales is the Half-Whole Diminished.

 

So let's talk about the Half-Whole Diminished Scale specifically on a Dominant 7 chord. Try this one specifically on a ii-V-i, playing it on the V. Unless you know the specific sound of a diminished scale, you will not likely arrive at notes that use it in a melody. I don't know the explanation for this, but that's just the way it is.

 

Thus, when you reach the V chord, play with the half-whole diminished scale and get used to the sound. First thing you will realize is that it is hard to come up with a melody based on a diminished scale. This is the kind of stuff you need to play around with. I would say it took me awhile get melodic on the diminished scales.

 

I've been playing around with various diminished melodies lately, including transcribing occurrences of this, so this topic is somewhat timely. Unfortunately, I'm very short of time right now to show some of this.

 

The half-diminished scale uses the b9, #9, #11, 13 of the V chord. So these are just extensions. They do not sound outside. Personally, the #11 is the hardest to use in a melody and is the most outside sounding note when not used as a passing tone.

 

Anyway, we'll start with this and transcribe Linwood's stuff. Notice how his does not sound "major scaly". A jazz master that will teach you a lot about melodies is Coltrane. You'll get a lot from one single tune and learn a lot about phrasing too.

 

I'll add more to this thread as we go along. I'll do it a little at a time and hopefully other jazzers out there will chime in. I'm just a hack after all...

[linwood]

Jazzwee..that was just a loop in Stylus,Trilogy, and Ivory. They're pretty much always up and going over here. In fact, it's 7am and there already open. You and I..two self proclaimed hacks. I should have mentioned on the audio example that I gave, that on the D chord I was thinking of it just as you described. If I were comping behind someone, somewhere along the line I'm gonna play the Am7b5 to D7 like this: bottom to top

 

G-C-Eb-G-B-D

to

F#-C-Eb-E#-G#-C

 

Anywho..off to work. I'm doing two Spanish things at 8:30am. Imagine that..singers singing in spanish at 8:30. I need more coffee...

[David R]

Two steps I've taken to become aware of melody in my improvising:

 

1) Take a tune you're learning (in this case, say "Autumn Leaves") and then write a bunch of different melodies on it. Composition is improvisation slowed down, after all. And try different things: 8th-note based melodies, longer note values, heavily syncopated melodies, diatonic melodies, melodies with chromaticism or extensions or substitutions, melodies consisting of only certain intervals.

 

2) If you have a tape recorder or MiniDisc recorder, play "Autumn Leaves" for half an hour or so and improvise in the same way you wrote lines: using longer note values, or 8th notes, or only certain intervals, etc.

 

David

 

PS: For a "holy melody, Batman" solo - check out Herbie on "All of You" from Miles' My Funny Valentine.

[bloodsample]

Jazzwee: Thanks for the great tips, I tried your advise on playing a half-whole dimished on the V of ii-V-I and wow! Already my solos are sounding jazzier! Well at least for two bars or so .

 

Linwood: Thanks for the recording, that solo was a tease, don't leave me hanging like this! Good job

 

David R: Thanks for the tips. I'm not that much of a composer, so I think that if I wrote something out ahead of time, it would probably suck. I used to do that before, I used to try and come up with as many melodies as I could to play as a solo, but that didn't work out too well. I just made a cd with a 18 minute loop of autumn leaves changes rhythm section so now I can play along on the ole upright.

 

 

Any thoughts on what I should play on the EbM7 and optional G7? Namely the "transition" chords on the 4th and 8th bars of the A section.

 

Also, jazzwee, can/should I also use a half-whole diminished scale on a minor ii-V-I? Namely when it goes Am7-5, D7, Gm7.

 

Can you break down the A section and tell me what scales I should/could use where and why?

 

So as I see it the A secion is composed of:

1- A major II-V-I (Cm7 - F7 - BbM7)

2- Some kind of transition chord : EbM7

3- A minor II-V-I (Am7-5 - D7 - Gm7)

4- Another transition chord: G7 (optional)

 

So for reference let's call part 1 of section A: A1, part 2 of section A: A2 and so on...

 

So for A1, I would play a bar of something in C minor then two bars of something in F half-whole diminished.

Then I would do some arpeggio of EbM7 for A2, but this is where I feel it's not jazzy enough. Should I play the key of the upcoming ii-V-I? Or should I play something in Eb (=C minor)?

 

So for now, 2 questions:

1) What are your thoughts on these "transition chords" and what should be played on them?

2) What can be played on a minor II-V-I?

 

Thanks all once again for your time+help.

[J_tour]

You might be getting a little too deep when you call these chords "transition chords."

 

G7 is just the V of the Cm. Think B-flat with the necessary alterations (probably a B natural -- although the pitch Bb also works with the G7).

 

And the Ebmaj7 is just part of what's a very common progression, namely, Imaj --> IV maj. You can very often toss in the IV if you want to elaborate on a given progression. There shouldn't be any reason harmonically to think of the IV as a "trouble spot." Of course, it happens to get you nicely into that V of the G minor as well.

 

Hank Jones has a very nice solo on "Autumn Leaves" from the "Something Else" album -- it's not too hard to hear what he's playing (not as hard to hear as Cannonball's outrageous, complex solo on the same tune) and contains a lot of the basic traditional sounds one associates with the progression. As usual, the *sound* he gets from the piano is gorgeous, too. A classic.

[Eric Iverson]

I love that album! It should be required listening for everyone who thinks Kenny G is the epitome of saxophone improvisation! (No, I don't hate Kenny G personally or begrudge him his success - it just that there is no comparison!)

 

I need to give it a fresh listen and focus on the piano this time - usually I get caught up in Miles and Cannonball.

 

And the tune is on a Jamie Aebersold package I have, to practice flute along with. Thanks for the reminder, guys!

[Jazzwee]

Bloodsample,

 

I don't know if you've noticed. Minor 7 b5. That's a half diminished chord. So there's your answer on that. Being so altered already, you can start playing around with the other altered notes like a b9.

 

On Maj 7 chords, you'll just to play around with this because I don't have a black and white answer for you but where appropriate, a unique sound could be a Lydian mode (#11). Since this is a release chord though, you don't usually want to create tension here so usually you stick to the Ionian mode. But here again some notes are more distinct and less commonly selected in melody such as the 9 and 6(13), both in Ionian mode.

 

I'm not a scale per chord kind of person myself. I think melody and I use the scale to alert me to harmonic potential colors that I would not notice otherwise. So I am not formulaic here. I remember playing something for my teacher before and he would say, "hey that's nice, you're using xyz over an abc". Of course I never thought about it. I'm an ear player and I back in to scale explanations to explain what I am doing, or to avoid going too far out.

 

I think the bigger concept here is the proper play of tension and release. You could put altered tones in every chord. But depending on the tune, typical harmony is a play of tension and release so it would be expected to release when a release is called for in the harmony.

 

If you are a jazz master, you'll have the ability to bend this rule because you have a bigger picture in mind.

 

J

[cnegrad]

On Maj 7 chords, you'll just to play around with this because I don't have a black and white answer for you but where appropriate, a unique sound could be a Lydian mode (#11).

And when #11 is allowed so is #5, which can resolve up to 6/13.

 

Let's think in the Key of C for a second:

One way to use this particular altered tone is instead of resolving to a straight Cmaj7, instead resolve to E/C, which is just shorthand for Cmaj7#5. After playing on that for a beat or two, then you can resolve to Cmaj7 or C6/9.

 

BTW, the same technique can be used with a Cdim instead of an E/C. Both work just fine.

 

Enjoy.

[linwood]

And don't forget the 6/9 chord. When the root of the bass is in the mouth of the soprano.

[Frode Mangen]

Originally posted by linwood:

And don't forget the 6/9 chord. When the root of the bass is in the mouth of the soprano.

This is a funny one!!! It`s so sad it can`t be translated into Norwegian!

 

And thanks to you, Jazzwee and Cnegrad and the others for great posts!!!

[Jazzwee]

Nice Cnegrad.

 

Finally the non-hacks chiming in.

 

#11 and b13(#5) approach note to the C6/9 (substitute for Cmaj7). Delayed resolution on the I chord.

[Frode Mangen]

Apart from the more hardcore jazz-pianists, such as Powell, Evans, Tyner, Jarret, Corea and Hancock, I find much pleasure in listening to Zawinul, Russel Ferrante and Lyle Mays. They really sing their solos.

 

Ferrante is a big hero of mine. His harmonic vocabulary is so deep, and his time and rythm, both when comping and soloing is impeccable.

I recommend anyone who hasn`t heard him to check out some Yellowjackets albums!!

I think of him as a mix of Jarret and Richard Tee.

Not a bad mix!!!!!

 

I`m mostly playing pop, soul,funk, rock and gospel music, but I often get a chance to go "all the way out there to bring it back home",and this kind of post is right up my alley!!!

 

Often these kind of solos is over 1 or 2 cords. For ex Fm7-Bb7, or just Fm7. Another song I often play over is "Blame it on the Boogie" (Eb13- Db13)

 

Do you have any tips to make it more interesting?

[cnegrad]

And for those of you that are scale-minded, the whole tone scale (all whole steps) works on both #11 and #5.

 

In other words:

C, D, E, F#, G#, A#, C

 

You may also recognize this scale as the one often used in cliched flashback scenes. I remember it like it was just yesterday....

 

Have fun!

[Jazzwee]

Originally posted by Frode Mangen:

Often these kind of solos is over 1 or 2 cords. For ex Fm7-Bb7, or just Fm7. Another song I often play over is "Blame it on the Boogie" (Eb13- Db13)

 

Do you have any tips to make it more interesting?

Fm7-Bb7 is ii-V so all the ii-V-I comments here apply.

 

Eb13 - Db13 is modal so you can do any kind of non-resolving harmony here. How about playing with quartals? Or weave inside and outside like pentatonics starting from the root and then other keys. I'm not next to a keyboard at the moment so I don't want to suggest something that will turn out awful.

[Jessica T]

Just stopping by to complement all of you very smart people on a fantastic thread! I took some time to copy/paste it into Word so that I can save it for my future reference. After all, the Internet is fickle. Then again, isn't that true of all media... Great work. Wish I had something inteligent to add. I learned a lot though!!

[Michelle ggurl]

Wow, this thread has really taken on quite a life of its own! Don't think I have too much too add, except one answer to a specific question:

 

Regarding "do you alter what you play in the left hand when 'outside' in the right hand?":

 

Yeah, I often do ... but what I call "outside" in this context may be a chord substitution to someone else. If I'm soloing over a vamp -- which happens a LOT -- I don't stay on the appropriate diatonic center the whole time. I will find myself:

 

1. taking a pattern/lick and playing it chromatically above or below, and following suit with the left hand (so if I were playing a quartal voicing, for example C-F-Bb, I may tick that up to C#-F#-B).

 

2. playing the altered scale and an dominant7 voicing with altered extensions in the left hand over what is usually a minor7 chord ... so I'd move from, say, D dorian to the D altered scale.

 

3. playing whole-tone scale or other scale/mode that has tones "outside" the chord extensions of the chord that is written. I usually find myself following suit with a 3-note chord voicing in the left hand.

 

The rest of the band usually continues to play what they are playing, but they have big ears so will pick up on what I'm doing and follow suit sometimes. Is this "outside," or a chord substitution on the fly? Where do we draw the line?

 

I dunno. My soloing exploits come off sometimes OK, sometimes not. I'm a perpetual student when it comes to music ... just some thoughts from another hack.

[Jazzwee]

Bloodsample,

 

I didn't have a leadsheet of Autumn Leaves handy earlier so I finally found one and revisited the chord changes.

 

Let's further continue this analysis of Autumn Leaves. There are many interesting little tidbits here that reveal itself. You've tried to analyze the chord progressions of Autumn leaves and are seeing individual pieces instead of the whole.

 

I want you to visualize this by playing the progressions of Autumn Leaves with the Bass only.

 

Watch this:

 

A - D

G - C

F# - B

E

 

If you play this with left side high and right side note low, separated by a fifth, you will notice a chromaticism here. Look at the notes in each column go down chromatically on the scale (G in this case).

 

This chord progression goes through the circle of fifths. And follows the sequence ii-V-I-IV-vii-iii-vi. Each is chord is a fourth apart.

 

ii - V

I - IV

vii - iii

vi

 

This is actually the basis of the melody. This chord progression is the basic turnaround sound in jazz. So when you think that some of these are just passing or transitory chords as you said, I'm sure this will give you a new view of this. The placement of the chord within scale degrees explain why some happen to be minor, diminished or major (if you know Scale Degree theory).

 

Since all the chords are just scale degrees of the same scale (Key of G, in Autumn Leaves), you can see how the same scale could be used, just using different modes.

 

ii (Dorian) - V (Mixolydian)

I (Ionian) - IV (Lydian)

vii (Locrian) - iii (Phrygian)

vi - (Aeolian)

 

Given the standard changes, this is why when you just did a G major scale solo the first time, everything fits. If you know the modes, you will realize that some of the scale degrees are already pretty altered even using the same G scale. But you now know to modify the V and the other suggestions on the I chord for additional variety.

 

This explains also why many jazz musicians alter the chord progressions here using tritone substitutions or creating additional Dom 7 chords. That then allows you to play with additional alterations thus changing the color of the sound from the standard G scale in this case. So this is the next phase to understanding jazz -- chord substitutions.

 

Now go back to the Leadsheet that Burningbusch provided for us on the first page of this thread. Notice the expansion from the regular changes from the Real Book. Because of those alterations, one can then flex the sound a little bit, away from the G scale.

 

Having fun yet?

 

Good morning Linwood, I'm sure you'll be up before me!

[linwood]

Too funny. You've got me pegged already. 7:30 and I'm at it, but that's the gig and it's a long day. Ahh, such is the life of a jingle guy. Great stuff you guys are posting here!

[InfoSal]

The kink being that G major scale doesn't really suit B7 very well. A little alteration would be in order.

[Jazzwee]

Thanks Infosal!

 

Good find. The b13 (Eb) on the G scale would be an important sound there since that is the 3rd of the B7 and would make the D an avoid note.

 

Ahh, ruined the perfection of my theory. I should have noticed the iii scale degree was altered on the original changes. Works perfectly only as a Bm7.

 

As it turns out B7 is used here because the b13 of the G scale (Eb) is in the melody! Can't ignore the melody.

[J_tour]

I don't mean to take attention away from the really great discussion here, but since someone mentioned playing over an Aebersold and a couple of other people enjoyed my reference to Hank Jones's performance of AL, I thought I'd mention Ron Carter and Jim Hall's performance of the tune on "Alone Together."

 

Since it's just bass and guitar, there's *some* space to add chords or solo on keyboards as practice. Although, really, Jim Hall kind of makes it redundant, since he covers about everything even though his playing is pretty sparse. You have to hear it to know what I'm talking about. It's maybe the single best bass solo I've ever heard, though, and there are some damned good bass solos out there. These guys *know* what sounds good, and they know what sounds good together.

 

Another thing I learned from Jim Hall is to *transcribe* guitar voicings. Many times they won't carry over perfectly to piano, but often there's something you can use in there. For a month or two, I used to transcribe *any* chord that Kenny Burrell played on some standard I was learning -- and then try it on piano. A lot of guitarists -- and bassists -- don't get their full due as far as their ability to voice chords goes, but there are a lot of good choices "they" make pretty often.