Jazz chord progressions?

[bloodsample]

Thanks all for the replies (yet again )

 

Ok I've made a quick recording of autumn leaves using suggestions proposed by jazzwee.

 

(right-click + save target as.. unless you want quicktime to run it)

---- Download it here ----

 

Ok so here are the details of how I voiced the first 4 bars/chords of the tune:

Bar#1: Cm7 - Voicing: Bb,Eb,G,D (7,3,5,9)

Bar#2: F7 - A,Eb,A,G (3,7,3,9)

Bar#3: BbM7 - A,D,F,C (7,3,5,9)

Bar#4: EbM7 - Ab,D,G,F (11,7,3,9)

 

I love the sound of the EbM7 voicing! The Ab was a total accident but it brings new life to the chord IMO.

 

If you find the time, can you folks listen to it and tell me what I'm doing wrong (or even right). Please don't judge the sounds or quality, just the content (ie chords). I feel that when I play chords alone without a melody I'm tempted to have a kind of pseudo-melody going on in my voicings, is this ok? Or should I not take too much attention off of the original melody (which in this case was not included)?

 

burningbusch: Unfortunately I just saw your post with the autumn leaves arrangement right after I was done recording so I couldn't include that into it. I'll check that out now though. Thanks a lot.

 

Everyone else: Even though I may not agree with you most of the time, I know that what you say is true deep down. So thank you for your input.

[linwood]

Try the pick up melody...G -A - Bb... now first chord bottom to top..

 

Left Hand - C - Bb

Right Hand - Eb -G - Bb -Eb

 

Next chord:

 

Left hand - F -Eb

Right Hand - A - B - D - G (hit the a&b with yo thumb)

 

There's lots of ways to play this. This is just one of 'em.

 

Somebody give him the next two.

[linwood]

Nobody... Here's two more...

 

melody : F - G - A

 

Left Hand - Bb -G

Right Hand - C -D -F -A -D (C&D thumb)

 

Next Chord:

 

Left Hand Eb -Bb -G ( if you can't hit it, roll it)

Right Hand C -D -F -Bb

 

That's all from me...to hard to do it like this, but I hope it helps.

All kinds of things you can try. Like on the f chord...play a Gb on top instead of the G and see if you like that sound. On the Eb..hit a A on top(rh -C-F-A and then move it to the Bb (RH- D-F-Bb). How does that sound to ya? Anyway.. Goodnight..I'm fried..what a day...

[Jazzwee]

Linwood, you are very energetic! Anyway Bloodsample, here's a quickie. Hard to do without a keyboard.

 

What you posted did not follow my voicing although you referred to me.

 

Following my original style, and using your changes, LH rootless voicing -- which fits here since you are supplying a bass:

 

(lowest to highest)

Cmin7

Eb G Bb D (b3 5 b7 9)

 

F7

Eb G A D (b7 9 3 13)

 

BbMaj7

D F G C (3 5 6 9)

 

EbMaj7

C F G Bb (6 9 3 5)

 

This is already adjusted for the appropriate inversion. The right hand plays the melody.

 

Notice how easy it is to move from a ii chord to a V chord above (Cm7 to F7). Done with the proper inversions it usually means just one note move.

 

Note that this is a fairly mild voicing of the F7. When voicing the V chords (F7) here can be altered the most. For example you can flat the 13 or flat the 9. However, I'm not at a keyboard so I don't know if that would clash with the melody. You can do it at other parts of the song where there is no melody or during the solo.

 

Just some other introductory hints here. F7 can be substituted by a chord a tritone away. So F7 can be replaced by B7. But lets leave these kinds of things for later. Basics first.

 

You can also play this on the RH and the LH can do the bass. Or in solo piano, we would play this stride style. i.e. I would hit the root (pedal on)(sometimes followed by a 5) on the first beat followed by each chord above (pedal off).

 

Your RH is still free here to do a melody, support the main chords on the left hand with a 5 - 1, or improvise.

 

I have to tell you. This is not a bad way of learning (breaking down parts of a single tune). You could study this single tune for a few months and after that time you could play many tunes effortlessly. Autumn Leaves was the first tune I ever learned, although I learned it in a different key.

[Jazzwee]

BTW - everyone here is offering different styles. They are all valid. It depends on how you want to play. Solo piano. Chords only (with a singer). Jazz trio style. Also style. You pick the situation that fits you. Actually, you'd be better off trying each other's variants since they all fit certain situations.

 

I've tried to explain where my particular explanation fits (jazz combo).

 

On the voicings, again it is a matter of style. If you have an extremely busy RH like Bud Powell, you will do ok with a very simple LH. Or Bill Evans uses only 3/7 voicings on the LH. This is all up to you. If you are playing this on a B3 Organ, you probably would stick to two notes on the LH since mine is too dense but it has a nice full jazzy sound on a piano.

[konaboy]

alright, lots of knowledge to absorb in this thread. thanks everybody this advice has been inspirational to me too.

 

One question.

 

How best to practise 2-5-1 progressions?

 

Recently I¨ve spent lots of time practising 2-5-1 progressions cycling through every key. I have programmed a 24 bar song in BIAB that has a 2 bar 2-5-1 which is repeated in each of the 12 keys. THe program just provides me with some drums and a bassline to give the rootless voicings some context.

 

This song I loop for half an hour and then sit there at my piano bashing away various left hand voicings in different inversions. With my right hand I play the scale that fits , for example, over Dm G7 CM I will play C major scale up and down a few octaves. I vary this by playing some patterns instead of a scale or just improvising using notes from the scale.

 

I have improved a lot and now I can quickly find the voicings and the scale tones that fit although I admit that some keys (F#, Db etc) are still much more difficult and give me a little trouble.

 

How should I progress from here? How do I take it to the next level? Is the Aebersold Volume 2 II-V7-I any good? That seems to be basically what i have been doing with BIAB.

 

So I guess what I'm after is how to make best use of my practise time. What are the best exercises or drills? Any suggestions are very gratefully received.

[Dave Horne]

What are the best exercises or drills?

Just some general advice - you seem to know the scales that apply to the chords in question, correct? Several things you can do - try playing just quarter notes for several choruses. You might find it actually more difficult to choose notes that sound good when you use less notes. Move on up to eighth notes and be able to describe any note you play. In other words, if someone were to stop you, you'd be able to explain exactly what you just played - not the actual letter name of the note, but its function at that particular moment.

 

Try to incorporate various patterns\licks\motifs\whatever into your playing and be able to describe what exactly you are playing. Think of using words like chord tone, half step below chord tone, diatonic step above or below chord tone, segments of scales, etc.

 

And of course your ultimate goal is to make all keys equally fluid in your playing. I"m willing to bet you can wail in C major and F major and G major, so why not spend your time in other keys. Spend an hour just in one key for example.

 

When I was younger I made a list of patterns to be used over a ii chord or V (or I) chord. Create a few of your own patterns (as well as using pieces of the appropriate scale) and try to solo just using one or two or three of those patterns for every chord.

 

So, for a ii chord you could first try a four note pattern. (I could give you the actual notes for a specific pattern for a ii chord, Dm, in C major, but that would be too easy. Here's a sample four note pattern:

 

Note 1 - diatonic step above chord tone

Note 2 - resolve downward to chord tone

Note 3 - half step below that same chord tone

Note 4 - resolve upward to chord tone

 

Then take that four note pattern to the next ascending chord tone or the next descending chord tone.

 

Try that pattern on all the chords you are playing. Try to come up with more patterns. Some might sound good, some might not.

 

(The actual notes for just this pattern using that ii chord in C major would be E, D, C#, D .... G, F, E, F .... B, A, G# A.) Apply that same pattern to a G major chord and then a C major chord using the simple set of instructions I gave.

 

You don't want your playing to sound like this all the time because this is just an exercise, right; you might be able to plug this in once in a while. I'm sure you can come up with more interesting patterns, but be sure to be able to explain what the pattern is without using the actual name of the notes involved. These patterns can actually help you to sound better when you are forced to improvise in keys that you don't play very often in.

 

This is really just common sense but I've learned a long time ago that common sense ain't that common..

 

I'm sure there are many other ways to accomplish the same thing, but this is one way to look at it.

[linwood]

Hey Jazzwee, yea..it's pretty easy for me to go from playing something to posting on my ftp. I do it all day. It's really play it, bounce it, a drag/drop, done. And blood..I was just giving you basic melody and some ideas for changes. I do understand that you are looking for left hand voicings to use while soloing and that you want a modern sound, but your putting the cart before the horse. First you must learn the tune. Once you understand how the melody weaves through the changes, you will have a much easier time getting through them yourself. That's one of those tunes that has been over done and we tend to forget how beautiful it is. Try playing it with your heart. Once you get that. Swing it, baby!!

[Jazzwee]

Hey Linwood, you're on the ball man! My problem is that I did mine without a keyboard. So I just tried it now and the EbM7 was muddy sounding. Needed a different inversion...

 

(Bloodsample note to move my EbM7 voicing up the keyboard).

 

Bloodsample, one thing to note on your version of the voicing. For example, you played with putting an 11th on a Maj7 voicing. Although all these changes sound good on an individual chord, this is the part of jazz theory that really relates to the basics.

 

Changing a "I" chord changes the effect of release. By putting a quartal sound in a Maj7, you have created a unresolved quality. That diminishes that satisfying effect of the tension of the V chord resolving. It will have a feeling of a hang. So that's why I would stick to the basic principles here because there's a reason we use an 11th in one case and not in another. Once you know the basic principles, it won't be hard to see the effect of testing out new approaches.

 

There's a little bit of cart before the horse here. And I think everyone is saying the same thing. Skipping the basics limit the understanding of some of the basic principles of tension and release (which is the foundation of ii-V-I).

[linwood]

Kona - here's another 2 5 1 thang. Let's start with A. So..Bm -E -A. I'm not gonna go into what these notes represent 'cause you can figure it or or most likely know.

 

LH for the three chords will go:

 

A-D- F# to G#-D-G to G#-C#-F#

 

Now see how on the second chord the bottom note went down a half while the top up a half. On the last chord , the top two came down a half.

 

RH for the three chords go:

 

A-C#-E to G#-B#(or C)-E to G#-B-E

 

See your playing an A triad with you right hand and that's where you're going.The next chord, the bottom two notes move down a half step and the last chord the middle note move down a half. Think of your right hand as always playing triads. A to E+ to E. When you solo keep that in mind. At first just arp the notes in those triads and you'll see what I mean. Now.. take it down a half...your first chord is a Bbm11.

[linwood]

Ok..it's been a couple hours, Kona. Now that you've got that down and blowin' through it smokin' fast. Let's change the right hand. Just take the A triad up half steps with every chord change. A to Bb to B. Any inversion you want. Arp those triads through all the keys.

[Dave Horne]

My problem is that I did mine without a keyboard.

[Jazzwee]

Don't rub it in Dave

 

Of course he could have played one octave higher and it would sound great (I didn't specify the octave) ...

[bloodsample]

Can you guys make quick recordings of you just playing through one set of autumn leaves changes (ie AABA once) just so that I get a feel of what "good" chord voicings will sound like.

 

Thanks.

[linwood]

blood- there are a million recordings and good charts on that tune. there's one already posted. get a copy of keith jarrett doing it..much better than us hacks...plus his intro is killer..I can't remember which cd it's on. One of the standards trio things. He's 'bout the only guy I can listen to play standards anymore. He brings something new to them for me. Everyone has their favorites..he's mine. Also check out Everything That Lives Laments from an old Impluse thing. I think that's the tune that I ripped off that six bar progression I posted for you. Listen to him blow through it. Jeezz. ( i hope I'm thinkin' of the right tune) Maybe you can get it on itunes?..nope just checked, but you can get the Impulse Years box set and if you don't have them..it's required stuff... I'm old, I have them all on vinyl. Get that boxed set.

[linwood]

Here learn this:

 

[burningbusch]

Transcription of Jarrett's solo on AL can be found HERE. I wouldn't vouch for complete accuracy, but it's a good start.

 

Busch

[keyman_sam]

Just wanted to say this is the best thread ever. I'm learning a lot from this thread. :-)

[bloodsample]

linwood, busch: Good work gents. Amazing finds, really.

 

Jarret really knows how to make love to the tune, great emotion...

 

There's an overwhelming wealth of information for me to study now, and I just can't wait for summer to start dammit!

[linwood]

Yea blood..he can sure play. I sound like a old lady playing tunes like that. Too safe and boring, so you're not alone here. Go pick up a copy of Keith's "The Art of Improvisation" dvd. It's like $15. A very cool doc.

[konaboy]

thanks all for the 2-5-1 help.

 

i will try them all out shortly, linwood your sugeestion sounds very interesting. hopefully this will lead to a more edgy or outside type of sound.

 

when i solo over 2-5-1 (or any other progression for that matter) i tend to use the dorian, mixolodian and major scales, so C major scale works great for Dm G7 C. However althóugh this sounds very melodic, pretty and sweet it doesn't sound very exciting. No tension whatsoever.

 

I've read plenty of text books on the subject but haven't really found a simple method that sounds great. One thing I have tried is transposing my right hand patterns up a semitone and then back down again but I'm not sure if this gives me the desired effect and playing different keys with each hand is extremely difficult to do, well for me anyway.

 

thanks again!

[linwood]

Hi Kona..lemme know if this helped you find a sound that you've been lookin' for and that if it was an easy way to get it and see it, or was it confusing. I'm just curious. It'll get you to play past just 7's and give you more options and really soon you'll just go there on auto. It's just a smoke and mirror thing, but it works.

[Jazzwee]

Konaboy,

 

For some more interesting effects soloing on your 2-5-1, try the following.

 

DOMINANT CHORDS

 

On your V chord, this is where you can create a lot of tension and this is where you go outside but it doesn't sound outside.

 

 

Examples of things to play on the V chord, are:

 

1. Half-Whole Dimished scale based on the root note of the V chord. In the key of C, with G as the Dom7, that is the G Half-Whole Diminished (that is, starting with a half step, alternating whole and half steps)

 

2. Play a minor pentatonic based on a note a half-step above the V chord. In the key of C, G Dom7, that is the Ab minor pentatonic.

 

3. Or you could play the entire Melodic Minor scale here based on the same Db key. (Melodic minor scale is a normal Ab major scale with a flat 3).

 

4. Whole Tone Scale ala Theolinius Monk. This would be a G whole tone scale (in G this would be F G A B Db Eb)

 

5. You could play triads based on every fifth note. Or weave in and out of key.

 

6. You could play upper structure triads such as based on the bII, bVI, or VI of the chord (for the G chord this would be Ab, E, Eb triads.

 

MAJOR CHORDS

 

On your I chord, you can focus on some pretty notes like the 9 and 6, #ll (Lydian) while using the usual major scale.

 

When examining a leadsheet, keep an eye on all the Dominant chords as they are opportunities for you to go outside the usual major scale of the I. Note that in a Dominant chord, there is practically no avoid notes so if you can invent some melody, most likely it will fit one of the scales described above even if it seems outside by itself.

 

Try not to play scales. Think melody.

 

Have fun!

[konaboy]

many more things to try, once again really appreciate it.

 

i can tell you a little story about this thread. i am off work for 3 weeks rehabilitation after falling on an icy road and breaking the bones in my cheek, forehead and jaw. as if this wasn't bad enough the weather her has been atrocious with black clouds and wintery drizzle every day for the last two weeks. i was really at my wits ends and depressed and didn't have a clue what to do with myself.

 

then i read the advice in this thread and it inspired me to spend the time pracctising, and to cut a long story short it really improved my situation and i have spent the hours in a very worthwhile way.

 

but one more thing i am unsure of. when playing "outside" on the V7 chord, is it usual to modify the left hand voicing to fit the scale (dim, whole tone or whatever) that I am playing in the right? Or do I just play the standard left hand voicing as normaö so that the notes in the right hand clash? i suppose that's the desired effect to get the tension?

 

I just need confirmation - do i use same left hand voicings regardless of whether I'm inside or outside with the right?

[Jazzwee]

Konaboy,

 

on the LH voicing, you have a few choices. You could leave the voicing more open and you'd have more freedom on the RH. Or use ALT and that would make many of the choices fit, or do whatever you want as long as you make it sound like you mean it! You'll have to use your own ears as a guide since nothing is cut in stone here. If you save the strong beats for a regular chord tone (like a 1/3/5/7) you can get probably get away with anything here.

 

An additional comment on rootless voicings that I suggested earlier. Rootless voicings take some getting used to. Those new to this may not feel comfortable not hearing the root. Although rootless voicings assume a bass player, there are plenty of jazz musicians that would mostly play rootless even without a bass player, perhaps just hitting the bass occasionally every few bars. I also use a pretty tight LH pattern. This is to leave room for the RH to improvise or do the melody. If you are comping then you'd adopt a different strategy.

[Dave Horne]

but one more thing i am unsure of. when playing "outside" on the V7 chord, is it usual to modify the left hand voicing to fit the scale (dim, whole tone or whatever) that I am playing in the right? Or do I just play the standard left hand voicing as normaö so that the notes in the right hand clash? i suppose that's the desired effect to get the tension?

First, I play mostly 'inside', but if you play outside with your right hand and also play outside with your left hand, the effect will be lost, right? You need to have some sort of reference to know that something is outside. Actually this is easily accomplished by simply playing and listening to your playing, right?

 

(I'm still trying to master playing inside and the guys I listen to play almost always inside. From my point of view, playing outside comes after mastering playing inside, but I'm sure that is a minority view.)

[Jazzwee]

Originally posted by Dave Horne:

From my point of view, playing outside comes after mastering playing inside, but I'm sure that is a minority view.)

I think your point of view is pretty valid Dave. There can be no outside if there is no inside, as some have said. But it is also true that many sounds considered outside long ago are pretty tame nowadays and fall into the inside realm.

 

I think leaving the outside playing to the V chord is not too outside sounding at all to my ears. The half-whole diminished almost sounds like expected alterations.

 

But I think if one plays melodically (which is what I suggest), the 'outside'-ness is not so apparent.

 

Jazz Educator Hal Galper uses a technique of putting regular (non-altered) chord tones on the strong beats, i.e. beat 1 and 3 in 4/4. That keeps the chord context. Then when you play outside notes at any other beat or in the offbeat, it doesn't sound outside.

[linwood]

Try not to play scales. Think melody.

Smartest thing I've ever seen posted!!

[Edd Z]

Get the new real book published by sher music and just play through the chords in there. Then try making them sound musical, for example not playing everything in root position and if you're not playing the melody messing around putting different notes in the different hands.

 

For example a C minor 11th chord...

 

left hand: C and F

 

right hand: D Eb G Bb

 

Moving to a F minor 11th...

 

left hand: C F Ab

 

right hand: C Eb G Bb

 

If you are playing the melody of something (with your write hand) you may want to spread the chords to get all the notes in or just select certain notes that still bring out the essence of the chord!

 

PS: if non of this works take up a frontline instrument.

[bloodsample]

I was inspired by what jazzwee said about thinking melodies not scales and so I've made a quick recording of myself soloing on autumn leaves changes (actually its 13 minutes long )

 

Download it here!

 

What do you guys think about when you solo over such a famous almost over-played standard? How do you stay fresh and original?

 

When you solo, do you hear notes in your head ahead of time and play them?

 

I always find it takes me a few minutes of soloing on a tune until I finally sink into it and am able to feel what I want to play.

 

Now I know I suck at soloing over jazz tunes, so bare with me. In this recording I tried to play melodies I heard in my head, I tried adding some herbie and chick flavour, I even paid a small tribute to oleo but as my head got filled with ideas I had trouble putting these ideas into notes.

 

So, what do you think of when you solo? Can you guys record yourselves playing a quick solo over autumn leaves changes and post it here? I know there are tons of recordings out there, but I want to know how YOU would play it.

 

I think it would be fun to have a thread where everyone solos over a particular tune and posts their version. Then you can hear different takes on the same tune by the forum members you've grown to love .

 

Thanks.

BS>