Dave Horne Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 B3 players (I started out on B3) and surprisingly enough trombone players (and sax players) will often play a three, four, five, six, etc. note pattern and repeat it over and over again irrespective of the bar line - a floating pattern if you will (and often played very fast irrespective of the tempo). The typical Jimmy Smith\B3 three noter is (ascending) F#, G, C or F#, G, Eb (repeated many times). I've included two others at the following link and was wondering what you guys call this type of ... time killer. You'll need the Scorch plugin from Sibelius to view. (A quick google search will get you there in no time.) repeating pattern So, you guys have a term for this? (Time killer seems unrespectful.) Richard Groove Holmes was a master at this kind of playing and it never fails to put a smile on my face. (These patterns have not been tested for their ability to mash. If you attempt to mash them, proceed with caution. ) No guitarists were harmed during the making of this message. In general, harmonic complexity is inversely proportional to the ratio between chording and non-chording instruments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 A riff? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle ggurl Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 Closest thing I can think of is hemiola effect. Some of the accents hit in a syncopated manner because, say, a riff of three eighth notes is repeated over 4/4, non-triplet feel. That's what I've heard this referred to, but that's not the same thing as "proper" hemiola, is it? As I understand it, hemiola is supposed to properly apply to 3 on 2 ... so this is not an exact definition of what you're talking about. Original Latin Jazz CD Baby "I am not certain how original my contribution to music is as I am obviously an amateur." Patti Smith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue JC Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 I've heard these called "set-ups" when you play a repetitious figure with an odd number of notes until the next chord change. In blues, you play this over the one chord in C until you get to the four chard and then you stab and hold the F note. The riff "sets-up" the stab on the four chord. You also play leslie slow until you hit the F then ramp up to leslie fast. I used to play with an old blues man who had a name for all of his changes and all of his riffs - it was his own language. It took a while to figure out that "trickeration" was a I-IV-V 12-bar blues and "fancyration" was a I-VI-II-V change (and on and on) but it worked for him. best, JC Everybody's got to believe in something. I believe I'll have another beer. W. C. Fields Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle ggurl Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 Originally posted by Blue JC: ... it was his own language. It took a while to figure out that "trickeration" was a I-IV-V 12-bar blues and "fancyration" was a I-VI-II-V change (and on and on) but it worked for him. Playing with that guy must've been a hoot. Original Latin Jazz CD Baby "I am not certain how original my contribution to music is as I am obviously an amateur." Patti Smith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wjwilcox Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 Ostinato? www.wjwcreative.com www.linkedin.com/in/wjwilcox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue JC Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 It got pretty wild. He'd get all liquored up and turn around on stage and say "this one's a trickeration in E with some stoperations (breaks) after I play the dramaration (long, high, bent guitar note) and we end with a bluesaration" (standard blues walk-up ending). Everybody's got to believe in something. I believe I'll have another beer. W. C. Fields Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musicalaccents Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 fallback pattern? lol I'm not into settling on particular patterns, appegiations, etc. in my improvisations. It's hard not to sometimes, especially, when you play through jazz or blues standards, because there are stylistic riffs that fit the music better. If I am playing (F#, G, Bflat) as triplets I might repeat the pattern 3-4 times before I start embellishing off this pattern rhythmically and melodically. However, if you're doing this 3-note progression superfast just to impress someone...somewhat annoying. I love Jimmy Smith though. Play only what you hear within...if you hear nothing, play nothing at all My Gear: Motif; Ensoniq MR-76; Suitcase Rhodes; Earthquake MKII Pedal; DiscomBOBulator; PodXT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle ggurl Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 Originally posted by Blue JC: It got pretty wild. He'd get all liquored up and turn around on stage and say "this one's a trickeration in E with some stoperations (breaks) after I play the dramaration (long, high, bent guitar note) and we end with a bluesaration" (standard blues walk-up ending). Dude, I'm seriously laughing so hard I'm crying right now. Thanks for that. PS, you're not making any of this up, right? I mean, it's still funny if you are ... Original Latin Jazz CD Baby "I am not certain how original my contribution to music is as I am obviously an amateur." Patti Smith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Davis Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 Originally posted by Blue JC: It got pretty wild. He'd get all liquored up and turn around on stage and say "this one's a trickeration in E with some stoperations (breaks) after I play the dramaration (long, high, bent guitar note) and we end with a bluesaration" (standard blues walk-up ending). Wonderful! I used to work with an engineer who was like that. He referred to a glissando as a "Jerry Lee Lewis bringdown." A very creative guy...and Dave, I don't know if this is the answer, but a lot of B3 players do something they call the machine gun effect. Play 16th notes on the root with your thumb and 3rd finger, and alternate that with chords or other notes from the blues scale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue JC Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 No - I couldn't make this stuff up. I still remember the look of panic on the faces of people who sat in or subbed for the night. He would turnaround, say this stuff to them, turn back around and just start playing. You just had to jump in and hang on. You know, a lot of the older guys wouldn't say anything at all. They would just start playing and you had to find the key and figure out the changes on the fly. You could really be left in the dust if you didn't stay sharp and have your ears on. JC Everybody's got to believe in something. I believe I'll have another beer. W. C. Fields Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billdar Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 Thanks, y'all, for creating a fun thread! I'm laughing and thinking that maybe I ought to come up with a few "trickeration" style names for my own use! Cheers, Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Bryce Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 Originally posted by geekgurl: Closest thing I can think of is hemiola effect. Some of the accents hit in a syncopated manner because, say, a riff of three eighth notes is repeated over 4/4, non-triplet feel. That's what I've heard this referred to, but that's not the same thing as "proper" hemiola, is it? As I understand it, hemiola is supposed to properly apply to 3 on 2 ... so this is not an exact definition of what you're talking about. Interesting...I'd have responded exactly the same as you, Michelle...except I'd have said it was a hemiola. I'd never heard that it needed to be applied to 3 on 2 to be a proper hemiola... dB ==> David Bryce Music • Funky Young Monks <== Professional Affiliations: Royer Labs • Music Player Network Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guestuserguestuser.com Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 Personally, I would really like to get a Dodge Magnum RT with a 340 Hemi.... oops, never mind Seriously, though, I never heard of a hemiola before. Cool, I learned something! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Klopmeyer Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 I may be wrong, but I always thought the definition of a hemiola was that it DID have to be 3 over 2. I want to LIVE in a-MER-I-CA is the example that I was always taught to remember it. - Jeff Marketing Communications for MI/Pro Audio My solo music and stuff They Stole My Crayon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Lainhart Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 In classical terms, I'd call it an ostinato; in jazz terms, a riff. Richard Lainhart http://www.otownmedia.com http://www.downloadplatform.com/richard_lainhart http://www.vimeo.com/rlainhart http://www.youtube.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Bryce Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 Originally posted by Jeff Klopmeyer: I may be wrong, but I always thought the definition of a hemiola was that it DID have to be 3 over 2.You're probably right - I always thought it was that particular note pattern (key of C would be F#, G, C), not a rhythmic thing....but then again, I don't remember where I learned that... dB ==> David Bryce Music • Funky Young Monks <== Professional Affiliations: Royer Labs • Music Player Network Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iLaw Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 I'm with Jeff, db, and others on this one. I've also always considered hemiola to be 3:2 and my old copy of the Harvard Dictionary (is Willi Apel still around?) confirms. On the other hand, Herr Apel defined "ostinato" as "a clearly defined phrase that is repeated persistently, usually in immediate succession, throughout a composition or a section." As wjwilcox and Richard suggested above, does this maybe get closer to what Dave has in mind? Larry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Klopmeyer Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 Originally posted by Richard Lainhart: In classical terms, I'd call it an ostinato; in jazz terms, a riff. And in rock terms, a, "Dude, that was rad, I wish I could play it again." - Jeff Marketing Communications for MI/Pro Audio My solo music and stuff They Stole My Crayon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 My bass player likes to play drums, and he and I like to sit around and Jam like that just the two of us. We came up with a cool little rythmic turn around of sorts and decided it needed a name so we could throw it in anytime. We named it "Fred" so now when we're jamming one of us will yell "FRED!" and we'll play that figure. Confuses the hell out of people. Later I figured out that it was nearly identical to the Steely Dan rythm they play in caves of altimira after 'you and me we understood' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loxley11 Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 Dave, The hemiola trick isn't limited to jazz and classical; Check out the guitar solo in Freebird (or any other Skynyrd song, for that matter) for about 15 back-to-back examples of what you described. It's great because it takes zero concentration once you're started, and it's one of the best ways to build up tension in your solo. Drew "Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face" -Mike Tyson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle ggurl Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 Originally posted by loxley11: Dave, The hemiola trick isn't limited to jazz and classical; Check out the guitar solo in Freebird (or any other Skynyrd song, for that matter) for about 15 back-to-back examples of what you described. It's great because it takes zero concentration once you're started, and it's one of the best ways to build up tension in your solo. Drew Yeah, this is what I understand Dave is asking. I think all these things we're talking about are some kind of riff; so that's not specific enough. And I always thought ostinato had a grounding component to the music, and perhaps a key foundational part to the music -- so that wouldn't be the same as something that is used to build tension by going against the foundation. Hence, hemiola. It's a rhythmic device, not note-specific per se. After I typed my first response I went and checked MY Harvard Music dictionary, and it does say in so many words it's a 3:2 device. Maybe we can institute a more generic term that applies to a hemiola effect not in 3:2. Fred's taken; how about "Ethel" or "Lucy"? Original Latin Jazz CD Baby "I am not certain how original my contribution to music is as I am obviously an amateur." Patti Smith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Fiala Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 +1 for "ostinato". If you've got a herniola, you better get that fixed surgically!! Tom F. "It is what it is." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzwee Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 Tom, you and Sven have the same avatar! Hamburg Steinway O, Crumar Mojo, Nord Electro 4 HP 73, EV ZXA1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Horne Posted March 10, 2006 Author Share Posted March 10, 2006 Originally posted by Tom Fiala: +1 for "ostinato". If you've got a herniola, you better get that fixed surgically!! Yea, but you have to eat a lot of prunes for ostinato. No guitarists were harmed during the making of this message. In general, harmonic complexity is inversely proportional to the ratio between chording and non-chording instruments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Byrdman Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 Is there a term for this? I'd say 3-7. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
niacin Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 Oh come on Dave, it's not "time killer". Listen to Oscar Peterson play a blues and you'll here it all over, to build tension as loxley11 said. I'd call it a lick. I mean you're gonna ask the blues guitarist at the next jam ripping these out "hey man, what's that hemiolic ostinato you're playing there?". Yeh right. Gig keys: Hammond SKpro, Korg Vox Continental, Crumar Mojo 61, Crumar Mojo Pedals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricochet Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 Glissando's what those '50s rockers slicked their hair back with, isn't it? "A cheerful heart is good medicine." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeronyne Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 Originally posted by Dave Bryce: Originally posted by Jeff Klopmeyer: I may be wrong, but I always thought the definition of a hemiola was that it DID have to be 3 over 2.You're probably right - I always thought it was that particular note pattern (key of C would be F#, G, C), not a rhythmic thing....but then again, I don't remember where I learned that... dB I always thought is was 6 notes in two groups of three, but I'm always late to the party (and usually wrong). The Latin origin of the word seems to support 1.5/1, which = 3:2 "For instance" is not proof. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Pierce Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 Hey, this is cool, I now know TWO different ten-dollar words for "riff". --Dave Make my funk the P-funk. I wants to get funked up. My Funk/Jam originals project: http://www.thefunkery.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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