Keyboard amps, powered cabs and Bose

[gangsu]

Originally posted by Is There Gas in the Car?:

I recently purchased a subwoofer for my studio and am surprised to hear all that I was missing before. Of course, playing in any band, you don't want to step on the toes of the bass player. But on the other hand, you don't want to sound wimpy when the time comes to crank it up... - Think of Gangsu playing Chopin on her GEM Promega to a full audience in an auditorium with no other sound system but what she brings with her. Or think of trying to play a Jimmy Smith tune on your Hammond clone - again, with just the amps/speakers you bring with your keyboard.

Oh Tom. I have to come back to your post, because I'm not who you think I am. I'm not particularly fond of solo piano, and you'd never catch me playing Chopin to a sold out house. I'm an ensemble kinda gal. I cheat. I make everybody else sound good and they think it's me! Or something. Well, you gotta make a living. Unless you can afford the high life, hired plumbers and all..

See ya.

[ITGITC]

Hi Sue!

 

You tempt me, Sue. I had written a reply that copied your last post. Of course, I left a few key words out to make it more interesting.

 

Because I didn't want you to get on a bus and make a trip down South with a shotgun aimed at my head, I deleted the post.

 

However, I'm certain that if you use a bit of imagination and you toss your mind in the gutter alongside mine, you can figure out what I was just about to post.

 

I apologize. Dave Bryce told me to do it. I swear!

 

Tom

[JeffLearman]

Well, Tom -- one of the things I like about 12" speakers is that way I don't have to worry so much about stepping on the bass player's toes if I'm playing a heavy left hand (which I really like to do on piano). Plus the fact that it's for stage monitor rather than mains.

 

So, I won't argue: 15's are better if you can afford 'em and don't mind hauling 'em.

 

I think 12" are practical and ideal for stage monitors. But I never do pedal bass, and I'm playing with a bass player (usually). When I do need deep bottom, I use the house feed and/or just crank those babies up (not that cranking them up would do justice to thos kick ass low moog notes ala "From The Beginning").

 

I think I'd rather haul a pair of 12" cabs plus a subwoofer than a pair of 15"ers, but again that's just a compromise of sound quality for portability. Of course, for the best sound, I'd prefer 4 10's to single 15". Ok, dreaming over!

 

BTW: see if you can tear yourself away and come to the Mebane jam tonight. I have drabars now.

[JeffLearman]

Schertler makes excellent acoustic guitar pickups, like an under-saddle pup that's based on recent innovations in hearing aid technology and is NOT piezo. I bet their amps sound great.

 

I'm tempted to get one of their pickups for my acoustic guitar.

[tarkus]

I play bass - as I've said. 15" woofer is nice but 2x10"=20".

[fisheye]

Some info: Schertler amp website

 

I really like that it is a real instrument amp, that is, it has separate optimized inputs for line, electric-pickup, acoustic-pickup (for example their own piano pickups) and mic (with phantom power), combined with the right controls, such as a resonance filter and a real analog, but very controlled spring reverb, di-out. You can use it to amplify an acoustic piano as well or whatever.

 

I see it a nice solution for when you want better sound than the average plastic active pa speakers, but don't want to step up for the high quality, but big and heavy, pa stuff.

[ITGITC]

ooooooh. Those Schertler amps look nice!

 

 

http://www.schertler.com/images/prodotti/Active_Loudspeakers_Amplifiers/PUB_280_PUB_380/FotoF-combo.jpg

 

PUB 280 AND PUB 380 : ACTIVE LOUDSPEAKER & BASS SUBWOOFER

 

The Schertler PUB-280 and PUB-380 Active Loudspeaker Systems are high-powered and designed to provide undistorted music reproduction at high levels. Versatile and compact, PUBs may be used as a PA system for small clubs, a monitor system for medium-sized stages, and as individual acoustic instrument amplifier systems.

 

PUB-280 is an active, biamplified system designed to deliver the mid and high ranges of a PA or monitor system, or act as a full-range instrument amplifier for most acoustic instruments. With 200 WRMS to the 8" woofer and 80 WRMS to the 1" compression tweeter, PUB-280 packs a lethal punch in a small package.

 

PUB-380 Active Bass Extension is designed to augment the PUB-280 in either PA applications or for use with bass or keyboards as a subwoofer. PUB-380 has 380 WRMS powering a 10" woofer in a bass reflex enclosure. Frequency range is 35 - 120 Hz.

=======================

 

Thanks for the link, Mr. Fisheye!

 

Jeff - I'd love to come out to the blues jam tonight. However, I believe tonight is the night that daughter #2 has her spring concert at High School (she plays viola). If not, I'll see if I can get a pass. Thanks for the invitation!

 

Tom

[MikeT156]

Quote by "Is there gas in the car?"

----------------------------------------

These EAW speakers are heavy. I really wish I could change the laws of physics and find SOMETHING that sounds just as good, but in a small box. That's why I mentioned using a couple of smaller speakers with a subwoofer (or two). One of these days somebody will come out with something along these lines.

-----------------------------------------

 

Tom, somebody already did, Bose. And they're four thousand dollars! All of a sudden, the Bose Wave Radio sounds like a bargain.

 

Mike T.

[fisheye]

Originally posted by MikeT156:

Quote by "Is there gas in the car?"

----------------------------------------

These EAW speakers are heavy. I really wish I could change the laws of physics and find SOMETHING that sounds just as good, but in a small box. That's why I mentioned using a couple of smaller speakers with a subwoofer (or two). One of these days somebody will come out with something along these lines.

-----------------------------------------

 

Tom, somebody already did, Bose. And they're four thousand dollars! All of a sudden, the Bose Wave Radio sounds like a bargain.

 

Mike T.

Actually, the whole Bose thing including the bass module weighs 42kg. Tom probably needs two bass modules, making it 55kg. The schertler setup on the picture weighs 42kg.

[ITGITC]

Dammit. I don't wanna carry around all that stuff!

 

From now on I'm makin' everybody in the audience wear headphones!

 

http://www.andenken.com/art/480x360/london_jamin/headphones.jpg

 

Is There Gas In The Car?

[fisheye]

How about placing some Bose Wave Radio's throughout the room? According to a review they sound better than the speakers in flatpanel tv's!

[gangsu]

Hey Gas, I don't own a shotgun, but there's no telling when I might show up in the middle of the night to siphon the gas out of your car.

Just kidding. Have a good day!

[ITGITC]

Originally posted by gangsu:

Hey Gas, I don't own a shotgun, but there's no telling when I might show up in the middle of the night to siphon the gas out of your car.

Just kidding. Have a good day!

Sue, you are welcome to come down South and visit me anytime you get an opportunity. I'll roll out the red carpet and bribe the Mayor to present you with a key to the city... maybe 88 keys even!

 

Tom

[gangsu]

Thanks, Gas!

[JeffLearman]

Tarkus -- sorry, but your math is wrong.

 

It's area that counts, not just diameter.

 

1 10" = 79 sq in

1 12" = 113

2 10" = 157

1 15" = 177

2 12" = 226

[JeffLearman]

Tom, too bad you didn't get a pass. Dream was there & he set up his VK8-M with keyboard, and I had my usual rig (MR76 with NIB4) plus new B4D drawbar unit. It was tight, but we could both play at the same time, and we had a riot.

 

Q: which Hammond clone sounded better?

A: whichever one Dream was playing!

 

We were too busy playing and having fun to do an A/B comparison. Since they were both through the same system it would have been a pretty good test. Both sounded great to me. I sure do like having knobs to twiddle now!

 

OK, back to amps, cabs, etc.

[ITGITC]

Originally posted by learjeff:

Tom, too bad you didn't get a pass.

Dammit!

 

I'm very sorry that I missed that. My apologies.

 

I would have loved to have heard you guys play.

 

I, of course, would be in the audience having another beer!

[DafDuc]

Originally posted by tarkus:

I play bass - as I've said. 15" woofer is nice but 2x10"=20".

(edit - didn't realize there was a page 2 to this thread - learjeff answered way better than I did...)

 

No. 2x10 does not = 20 when you're talking circular(/conical) surface area.

 

2 10's have roughly as much surface as a 15 - a little less, but close. For a flat circle, you would compare the squares of the radii (pi on both sides cancels out): so 2 10's would be 2x(5x5), or 50 (x pi), and a 15 would be (7.5x7.5) or 56.25 (x pi). Because they're conical, not flat circles, it's a little different, but similar.

 

My keyboard repair guy, who also does PA work - swears that those EON-style cabs are unrepairable - or at least force you to toss out a bunch of stuff you'd be able to keep in a traditional cab. I believe it's a universal damnation of plastic cabs, rather than only the EONs, but his comments were directed toward an EON when we discussed it.

 

I'm a long time user of PA equipment for my keys, and I'm sick of all the wiring. But I gotta wonder why we want to combine the amp and the speaker, rather than the mixer and the amp (I DO understand the all-in-one lure). Speakers weigh enough without throwing an amp into em as well! I'm looking at one of those Soundcraft Gigracs right now to go with my Yam PA speakers, though gangsu's GT combo sounds enticing.

 

I also (here?) heard good things about a Jazz Chorus amp. And I was wondering about acoustic guitar amps too - they're often billed as able to do double duty as a PA.

 

I'd love to see Keyboard Mag devote an issue to reinforcement. The options make my head spin - nah wait, that's the Meniere's...

 

 

Daf

[ewall08530]

One Bose PAS is all you need to have the sweetest little PA/keyboard amp out there.

 

You really dont need to spend $4000 on 2 systems to be happy.

 

And it is easy to move and set up. I get mine in and out in 2 trips.

Power stand 35lbs

Sub 32 lbs

Tower (in two parts, each 15lbs).

 

You may decide you will not pay that much for a system but I doubt if you will decide you dont like the sound. EWall

[fisheye]

Originally posted by DafDuc:

I'm a long time user of PA equipment for my keys, and I'm sick of all the wiring. But I gotta wonder why we want to combine the amp and the speaker, rather than the mixer and the amp (I DO understand the all-in-one lure). Speakers weigh enough without throwing an amp into em as well!

As I understand it, active speakers can use separate amps for the tweeter and woover and optimize them for that specific speaker. The amps can run more efficient that way. Also, they can implement active electronics to compensate the speakers weaknesses, which is cheaper than the passive electronics in passive speakers that need to work on speaker-level signals. So it's cheaper and easier to make good sounding amps with the active approach. For small systems, the weight will be tolerable. Although often plastics are used to make it lighter, which is, I think, not the best way to make a good speaker.

 

Please correct me if I'm wrong in the above.

 

Acoustic guitar amps can be good for keyboards players, since acoustic guitar needs clean amps. The amps might compensate for typical guitar and pickup weaknesses though, so not all acoustic guitar amps are useable. I tried some and the Schertler was easily the cleanest. (I remember promising I wouldn't brag about the Schertler, but can't help myself, is that a gas side-effect?)

[burningbusch]

Originally posted by DafDuc:

I'm a long time user of PA equipment for my keys, and I'm sick of all the wiring. But I gotta wonder why we want to combine the amp and the speaker, rather than the mixer and the amp (I DO understand the all-in-one lure). Speakers weigh enough without throwing an amp into em as well! I'm looking at one of those Soundcraft Gigracs right now to go with my Yam PA speakers, though gangsu's GT combo sounds enticing.

 

Daf

I just run through PA speakers and have floor monitors if needed. We recently switched from Mackie 450s to the JBL SRX series. The JBLs kick the Mackies pretty bad. The SRX are not powered. I don't miss that a bit. Just run Speak-On cables from amp/mixer to speakers vs. running audio + AC every where. They aren't any lighter than the Mackies and are more expensive. More expensive than the Bose when you add power, but sound a lot better IMHO.

 

Busch.

[resigned]

I don't know why the Motion Sound stereo amps don't come into conversations like these more often. I still love mine: the KP-100s and KP-200s.

[MikeT156]

I really don't like some of the particle board speaker cabinets, much less plastic. I'm afraid we have to compromise sound for weight, but where is the point of no return? I have an OLD set of JBL cabinets, and they're thick, HEAVY, hardwood cabinets. Not meant to be played at 120db, but I get nice, fully developed bass notes, and crisp highs. Heavy hardwood cabinets with quality components and clean amplfication sound so much better than some of the new, lighter gear. No, I don't want to move them either. The JBL's have been assigned to "Home" use for years.

 

 

Mike t.

[JeffLearman]

Particle board is heavier than wood, so you lose there in both respects! The only advantage to particle board is it's cheap. Well, it might have sonic benefits, but evidently you don't think so.

 

I wouldn't know; I've never had any particle-board units. My Klipsch Heresies were wood, as are my old EV floor monitors. My Bose 802's are plastic, though I don't think that's the cause for their biggest deficiency (lack of highs).

[ITGITC]

Originally posted by DafDuc:

My keyboard repair guy, who also does PA work - swears that those EON-style cabs are unrepairable - or at least force you to toss out a bunch of stuff you'd be able to keep in a traditional cab. I believe it's a universal damnation of plastic cabs, rather than only the EONs, but his comments were directed toward an EON when we discussed it.

 

I've opened up my JBL EON 15-PAK quite a few times. Why? Because I was using a RADIO SHACK adapter plug (RCA jack to 1/4" phone plug) to play my CD player through the EON. (It does a great job of this by the way.) The plug came apart inside the 1/4" jack & to remove the tip, I had to open the speaker.

 

The woofer basket is an integral part of the front baffle. In other words, it's all one part. So to recone the woofer, you remove the grill and glue on a new cone. The benefits of this are that it makes the speaker that much lighter. The downside is that you can't replace the woofer in the field. You must send the EON back to a service center for repair. This hasn't been a problem for me. I've never had a problem with the EON. It works just as well today as it did when I bought it.

 

Would a real wood cabinet give me better performance than a plastic cabinet? Probably. However, the trade-off is worth it to me. I can carry the EON with no problem - don't have to use a hand truck. The two amps are on the inside along with the electronic crossover. It's got a built in mixer and EQ, as well as a jack for a low-impedance microphone. And it sounds great for what it is - a plastic all-in-one speaker.

 

Playing in a band with a guy running the PA, I used this one speaker as my monitor. I'd sum to mono with it, but send a stereo feed to the PA. What's not to like? With a K2000 and an Apex stand, I could be set up in 30 minutes or less. Simplicity is a beautiful thing.

 

The EONs are good speakers. There are THOUSANDS in use all over the world. For a lot of bands, it's a good solution for their needs.

 

There are compromises in ALL speaker designs. JBL made some smart choices with the EON, and made them better with the G2 model. This is proven by the thousands that are in use in acts all over.

 

I've had mine for quite a few years and I'm still very pleased with my decision to purchase it. If I needed to make the decision again, I'd probably compare the sound quality to the Mackie SRM450 and go from there. They're both around $700.

 

I ramble. I apologize. The bottom line is that by integrating the woofer cone with the front baffle, it saved some weight in the speaker. I think it was an acceptable compromise.

 

Tom

[MikeT156]

Tom:

 

700 bucks for ONE Eon? I can get the EAW FR153z for only slightly more $$$, Yeah, I know, its not the same thing, not self powered, need a hand truck Etc., Etc., I guess relative cost is what I'm talking about.

 

 

Mike T.

[ITGITC]

I know where you're coming from, Mike. The EAWs blow away the JBL EONs - no comparison. The EONs just aren't in the same league.

 

For the application, however, that one EON 15-PAK is a beautiful thing. Imagine setting up in less than 30 minutes - usually about 20. I had it down to a science with the K2000, Apex stand, EON, and cable sets / direct boxes.

 

Besides, putting the EON at an angle on the floor pointed away from the audience and back at me left the sound guy free to worry about the FOH sound instead of having to deal with too much bleed coming from my monitor.

 

I believe you said that you have different systems for different applications. I know ThePro does. I'll bring out the EAWs and my two Hafler XL280 amps (along with my Mackie 1402 VLZPRO and a rack with reverb and EQ) when needed. Otherwise, for most gigs, the EON is a pretty good match.

 

For me, the most disappointing factor in the EON is the horn. It can really impose a nasal sound to a nice clean piano patch. The EON doesn't do this because it uses a 'wave guide' instead of a horn. I think that this would be a benefit of using the Bose PAS - no horn. Of course, we all know that without the horn you lose the ability to throw the sound for a longer distance. In most applications, I'll make that compromise.

 

The 15" woofer in the EON is fine, but because the EAW has a bigger box, it seems to produce lower frequencies with greater ease. And I do think having the Baltic birch plywood box helps add a certain character to the low end.

 

My FR153 is an older design and the sides of the box are at 90 degrees. The newer design (FR153z) is shaped such that the sides are angled to reduce standing waves within the box and to project the sound. It also has handles on the side and a pole mount on the bottom. Hey, it works for Botch!

 

Take care -

 

Tom

[MikeT156]

Hey Tom, I understand why you're using the EON when you have the FOH system, makes sense to me. Having a small, quality monitor speaker that doesn't leak into the FOH system is a plus. Anyway, you really don't want a LOUD on stage setup. Guitar players should pay attention to that.

 

Being that I've played as a solo act since the late seventies, I've always had different amp/speaker setups depending on the gig. At one time, I had a set of JBL loaded bins for PA that I put everything through, a smaller stage amp/speaker setup for the piano and bass pedals, and a set of monitor speakers that I put my vocals and the drums through. I used that setup for outside gigs or large rooms where I had a big stage. Full rack, a Crown and Yamaha power amp, EQ, Roland Space echo, 2 Yamaha mixers. That was back in the days when I actually had some money.

 

More recently, I used a smaller setup for clubs, like the hotel circuit. I used my JBL cabinets and a floor monitor most of the time, along with a full rack. Yamaha amp, dual 31 band eq, digital delay, Furmon power conditioner.

 

When I started playing the college bars, I used a set of Peavy International 115's, 3 way speaker cabinet which carried the vocals nice. I didn't have to be concerned about beer spills as much with the Peaveys, nowhere near as expensive as the JBL's.

 

There is a big different between a wooden cabinet and plastic. I have a set of old JBL cabaret series cabinets and it's a hardwood cabinet. Great, fully developed bass notes, and clear, crisp highs. Some of the newer particle board cabinets don't sound as good.

 

I think those EAW FR153z would probably the best set of speakers for me as a solo act. I like the 3 way speaker arrangement in the Peavey's I have, but they're not a clean as my JBL's. But my JBL's are a 2 way speaker setup. Notice how we are never quite satisified?

 

 

Mike T.

[ITGITC]

Originally posted by MikeT156:

Notice how we are never quite satisified?

 

 

Mike T.

Ummmmmm, yeah. So, what's your point?

 

I think most of us keyboard guys have longer cycles of being happy with the gear we buy. Especially compared with guitarists.

 

Yup it's Guitarist's Aquisition Syndrome - G.A.S.

 

Besides, I'd LOVE to have a B3 & 147, and to have kept my Rhodes and Wurlitzer EPs, but who's got the space?

 

I think if you took a poll, the guitarists would certainly win the award for most guitars and having the most junk around that they no longer use.

 

That would be a good start for a new thread: How much stuff do you have around that you don't use, but don't want to get rid of? Hmmmmmm?

 

I know of two friends of mine, both of them guitarists, who EACH have a trailer-load of gear sitting out in the country somewhere that is just getting old and rusted.

 

Sure, I've got some gear I don't use too much anymore; but not a whole trailer-load!

 

I wonder if anyone else here has guitarist-friends like that? Not that I'm beating up on the poor, egotistical, can't-hear'-it-unless-it-makes-your-eardrums-bleed guitar guys. But, c'mon, they're asking for it! When we want to come out from behind our stacks of keyboards, the best we can come up with is a stinkin' KEYTAR!

 

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! ...Sheesh!

[MikeT156]

I have a few boxes full of "junk'. Mostly old cables, adapters, old lesle stuff, spare pedals that have parts missing. I keep my road cases out in my storage shed. The front room of my house is where the music gear stays. My house rule has always been, no more gear than what can fit in there. So when I bought two new keyboards this year, I bought new, multi-level stands to get around my rule. I sold my old Roland piano to a college student that wanted a practice piano, so I'm still up one keyboard.

 

Maybe your guitar player friends have had the same experience that I had with old gear. When you try to sell it, no one will give you anything for it, so you keep it.

 

Mike T.