joegerardi Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 So, just to clarify: I take a snippet of all the different performers who performed the "Star Spangled Banner" at the Super Bowl (See Jeff's thread in the Keyboard Corner) and grab a snippet of each an create a "Star Spangled Banner" that is an amalgam of all their different performances, then I composed the "Star Spangled Banner?" No, Francis Scott Key did. To continue: If I take the same snippets, re-[i][b]arrange[/b][/i] them (I purposely chose that word) and create a new piece out of it, then I composed the new piece? I can't see that. It's still Francis Scott Key's music. To me, it's like trying to draw the same thin line betweeen someone using another musician's samples, and saying that he owes the original samplist no royalties, because he used them in a completely different context. I'm with you on this one, Dan. It's arrangement. Setup: Korg Kronos 61, Roland XV-88, Korg Triton-Rack, Motif-Rack, Korg N1r, Alesis QSR, Roland M-GS64 Yamaha KX-88, KX76, Roland Super-JX, E-Mu Longboard 61, Kawai K1II, Kawai K4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The T Dot Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 Well if that is the case, then sample-based instruments are useless for composing, only arranging. And sample cd's are also out of the question for composers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joegerardi Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by Chris Himself: [b]Well if that is the case, then sample-based instruments are useless for composing, only arranging. And sample cd's are also out of the question for composers.[/b][/quote]Not at all. With ROMplers, I'm not taking musical [i]phrases[/i] that were written by someone else, I'm using someone else's sound to play notes and rhythm's that I created. And I paid a one-time royalty for the use of those sounds when I bought the instrument. Setup: Korg Kronos 61, Roland XV-88, Korg Triton-Rack, Motif-Rack, Korg N1r, Alesis QSR, Roland M-GS64 Yamaha KX-88, KX76, Roland Super-JX, E-Mu Longboard 61, Kawai K1II, Kawai K4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duhduh Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 What about say, taking a bass line, extracting ONE note, repeating that one note over and over, then transposing the pitch and rythmic pattern to create an entirely new melody? What about taking a drum beat, looping it, then writing an entirely new verse/chorus/bridge in a different key, with different chords, changes, modes, etc over the top of that? "Meat is the only thing you need beside beer! Big hunks of meat and BEER!!...Lots of freakin' BEER." "Hey, I'm not Jesus Christ, I can't turn water into wine. The best I can do is turn beer into urine." Zakk Wylde http://www.hepcnet.net/bbssmilies/super.gif http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/15_1_109.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joegerardi Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by The Duhduh: [b]What about say, taking a bass line, extracting ONE note, repeating that one note over and over, then transposing the pitch and rythmic pattern to create an entirely new melody? What about taking a drum beat, looping it, then writing an entirely new verse/chorus/bridge in a different key, with different chords, changes, modes, etc over the top of that?[/b][/quote]OK, now that we're picking nits... :) Your first example is sampling in the first part, composing in the second. As I understand Acid, one arranges loops of pieces of other songs together to create a new piece. Taking that one note is akin to selecting a bass program on a Triton, (for example) and then playing it in the style you suggested. For the second, I'll agree with what Dan wrote earlier: [quote][b]If you improvise a solo over an existing piece of music, you are composing a new melody for it. I would not consider that arranging, because you're not affecting the entire arrangement, just one part.[/b][/quote]However your example is in the reverse. You're composing an entire song over one arrangement. In other words, you're ripping off some poor schmuck of a drummer. :D PS: VERY cool avatar! Setup: Korg Kronos 61, Roland XV-88, Korg Triton-Rack, Motif-Rack, Korg N1r, Alesis QSR, Roland M-GS64 Yamaha KX-88, KX76, Roland Super-JX, E-Mu Longboard 61, Kawai K1II, Kawai K4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duhduh Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 Well, Acid doesnt have many limitations. You can do just about anything with it. Personally, I use it to compose arrangements. ;) I find a drum loop that works for an idea of mine. Then I write a composition over that. Then I use Acids tools to arrange the composition. I then export all the .wavs into PT, replace the drum loops with real drums and then record all my other parts. Its a very efficient tool when you dont have a full band around to compose sonds with. Other times Ive written entirely in the loop realm. I dont like the idea of just using loops. I dont have any samplers, synths, etc. So I would just find a cool sound, take the tiniest snippet of it, loop it several times and transpose the shit out of it until I got something new. Many times this ended up with just one single note from the original loop. Most music done in Acid that Ive heard has been using the loops in their entirety - repeating, adding effects, changing the beat, etc. To me, that [i]is[/i] just re-mixing. "Meat is the only thing you need beside beer! Big hunks of meat and BEER!!...Lots of freakin' BEER." "Hey, I'm not Jesus Christ, I can't turn water into wine. The best I can do is turn beer into urine." Zakk Wylde http://www.hepcnet.net/bbssmilies/super.gif http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/15_1_109.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Klopmeyer Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 I like Acid and similar software applications. They're fun to work with and creativity-inspiring. I don't much care whether the work I'm doing is called "composing" or "arranging", or a little of both. I tend to feel like more of a re-mixer (arranger) than a composer anytime I'm using more than a single-note phrase or simple drum loop. That having been said, I'm more the type to create my own loops and work that way...then there's really no question that I am indeed composing. Whatever. Music is fun, or should be. - Jeff Marketing Communications for MI/Pro Audio My solo music and stuff They Stole My Crayon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joegerardi Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 Uh, gee, thanks, Jeff. It's just like you to come in and put water on what was about to become a really good flame war... :D Setup: Korg Kronos 61, Roland XV-88, Korg Triton-Rack, Motif-Rack, Korg N1r, Alesis QSR, Roland M-GS64 Yamaha KX-88, KX76, Roland Super-JX, E-Mu Longboard 61, Kawai K1II, Kawai K4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franknputer Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 I propose a new process - "companging", whereby one composes a new arrangement by arranging a composition of it's constituent parts, creating a composite..or arrangition..or... Fuck it. I'm gonna go decompose in the corner... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Klopmeyer Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by joegerardi: [b]Uh, gee, thanks, Jeff. It's just like you to come in and put water on what was about to become a really good flame war... :D [/b][/quote]Hey, screw you, you...you... Aw damn, I just don't have it in me today. My flame was extinguished at some point. [i]"Can't we all just get along?"[/i] :) - Jeff Marketing Communications for MI/Pro Audio My solo music and stuff They Stole My Crayon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D_dup3 Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by ChristopherKemp: [b]I propose a new process - "companging"....[/b][/quote]Or we could call it "arrosing", as in "...the music arrose itself..." :rolleyes: [i]Try the veal![/i] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan South Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 How about "arousing?" :D But we've strayed way off topic. I, for one, am very pleased to see a visionary of Stockhausen's calibre sponsoring this arranging contest. (No, really! I AM!) Lest arrangers and remixers get the feeling that I'm slighting them somehow, please don't. That's not the issue. I never implied any sort of value judgment between composition and arranging; I'm just clarifying the terms. Oftentimes arranging is more difficult than composing. I can compose a song that someone could sing and play at the piano in less than an hour. But for someone to arrange that song for big band or to convert it into an operatic aria or arrange it for a theatrical production, that would be a HUGE effort even though WRITING the song required a rather trivial effort. When I write music, I usually spend more time on the arrangement than the composition. As far as remixing goes, I wouldn't have a clue as to how to do it, so I'm the last person to criticize those who do it and do it well. I just don't see it as an act of pure composition. It's more like derived composition, reworking existing musical ideas - in other words, arranging. I also don't want to dismiss the Acid product. I'm fully aware that it can be used to compose and produce new compositions. Acid is a widely respected and popular music production tool, a tool that can be used for composing, arranging, remixing, and any combination of the above. I suspect that most Acid users use packaged loops with the software, but that does not mean that you MUST use them or that there's any problem is you DO use them. Turn on. Tune in. Make music. ;) The Black Knight always triumphs! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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