Perfect, Relative Pitch?

[dansouth]

Here's another question for the perfect pitch crowd. Can you think of any popular songs that were recorded in an unflattering key? If so, what key would have been more suitable? Were these more marginal hits, or does key matching have no correlation to record sales?

[Jeff Klopmeyer]

Originally posted by dansouth@yahoo.com:

Here's another question for the perfect pitch crowd. Can you think of any popular songs that were recorded in an unflattering key? If so, what key would have been more suitable? Were these more marginal hits, or does key matching have no correlation to record sales?

 

I can't answer this directly, because I'm sure that whatever the reason for the decision of tonic center, the artist/band made a decision for whatever the "right" reasons were at the time...who am I to criticize it after the fact? Sometimes it's a specific choice...other times, it could be as mundane as using the key the singer can work with in his/her range.

 

I do have two things to say about this, though. First, it's always blantantly obvious to me when alternate tunings are used on a guitar part, or when instruments are transposed. I can easily hear the "shape" of an E chord on guitar, even if it's dropped to Eb or below.

 

Second, key choice does seem to have an effect on music trends and popular success of music. The thing is that like most fads, it changes over time.

 

In the '50s, you'll note many successful songs in C. I believe this is because piano was the predominant writing instrument then, and that most songwriters at the time did not have a high degree of musical training, so C was by default the first key they went to to write. In the Beatles-era '60s, guitar became the instrument of choice, so E, A and D became the most used keys for the same reason as described above. In the late '90s alternative rock era, drop tuning guitars to Eb, D or even below provided a particular heavy sound that was emulated by many. In a strange twist of irony, most of these sound-alike bands claimed to use the drop tuning to sound "different". Go figure.

 

One more thing. I honestly believe that each key inspires a particular emotional reaction, but I don't know why, and I think these reactions are not totally universal by any means but still shared by many. It has nothing to do with major versus minor tonal content. It's the key itself. Perhaps it's simply a reaction to the direct exposure and collective unconsciousness from centuries of Western music composition. I won't go into my personal reactions to each key, but when I sit down to write, I always have this in mind.

 

- Jeff

[Llarion]

Originally posted by dansouth@yahoo.com:

Here's another question for the perfect pitch crowd. Can you think of any popular songs that were recorded in an unflattering key? If so, what key would have been more suitable? Were these more marginal hits, or does key matching have no correlation to record sales?

 

I agree that keys have distinct flavors and personalities. No question.

 

To answer your question Dan, EVERYTHING Michael Bolton ever recorded was a step too high. He always needs vise grips to get those peak notes out.

 

E, A and D are the guitar song keys, as Jeff said. They are the "regal" sounding keys to me, especially with acoustic piano. Further, a lot of mainstream constructed pop/AC ballads are in the Bb/Eb/Ab circle (with their relative minors in there too. Those keys have an accessible warmth and simplicity, but have a certain elegance that C, F and G lack... Plus, they are good piano keys, and great horn keys.

 

From an arranging standpoint, you don't often see Db/C#, Gb/F#, and B (unless minor) because they are harder to play in for almost every instrument.

 

 

 

------------------

Cheers!

 

Phil "Llarion: The Jazzinator" Traynor

www.mp3.com/llarion

Smooth Jazz

[Dave Bryce]

Originally posted by Llarion:

I agree that keys have distinct flavors and personalities. No question.

 

So do I. Absolutely.

 

dB

[RecreationalThinker]

Originally posted by Llarion:

This is EXACTLY what I was talking about when I said perfect pitch made me lazy. I took 3 piajno lessons once; and the teacher played the piece he wanted me to learn for me, and I memorized it. He figured it out quickly, because the next week I wasn't looking at the book while I played it... http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif Wish I had the discipline to learn to read well... http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

 

But yeah, overall, I wouldn't trade it for anything...

 

 

 

I'm a little confused by this distinction. If perfect pitch is a genetic ability to consistently discern a particular frequency, how would that help you learn a song faster? Is the pitch identification process part of the developed hearing mechanism, or part of the memory process. I could see how having perfect pitch would be a memory aid if it is due to the latter, but not the former. For instance, I can readily identify colors, but I can't paint someone's portrait.

 

I have highly developed relative pitch, and it suits me quite well in my own musical work. I can imagine how irritating it would be to have perfect pitch in a relative pitch world.

 

Now, I have a physics question that is tied to this topic: Is there any natural law or property that requires A to vibrate at 440hz, or is that frequency arbitrary? I've studied music extensively, but it has been a while, and I have either forgotten or I was sick the day they tought that subject. If the frequency/name correlation is arbitrary, then how do you explain perfect pitch?

 

Just curious...

 

 

 

------------------

What's on, your mind?

[joegerardi]

Originally posted by lauriez@lauriez.com:

Interval training's a great way to get the relative pitch thing going - and you can remember intervals with familiar songs as well (e.g., "Somewhere Over the Rainbow" starts with an octave) but it's also true that you can remember note placement with the keys of familiar songs, too, as you said.

 

lz

 

In college, Sight Singing/Ear Trining was a required course. We all used the above method to learn the intervals. There were "standards" that everyone would share so we could learn the intervals. "Somewhere Over the Rainbow" was for the octave; the Jontue perfume commercial with those French Horns for the perfect 5th. (Boy, am I dating myself with THAT one!); "Colour My World" by Chicago for the dominant 7th; The 3 Stooges "hello, Hello, HELLO" for the major 3rd (and the 5th); and a host of others. The Holy Grail was a perfect 9th. I was the class hero, because of my love of Sondheim, I was able to supply the song "Getting Married Today" from "Company." When the male part sings "To-DAY is for Amy," the first word, is the 9th, and everyone was able to get it. The Prof was frustrated because he thought he would be able to stump us, and everyone in the class knew it.

[Steve LeBlanc]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by Llarion:

I agree that keys have distinct flavors and personalities. No question.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

So do I. Absolutely.

 

dB

 

Dmin is the saddest of all keys..."Lick My Love Pump" http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

[Laurie Z.]

Originally posted by RecreationalThinker:

I'm a little confused by this distinction. If perfect pitch is a genetic ability to consistently discern a particular frequency, how would that help you learn a song faster? Is the pitch identification process part of the developed hearing mechanism, or part of the memory process. I could see how having perfect pitch would be a memory aid if it is due to the latter, but not the former. For instance, I can readily identify colors, but I can't paint someone's portrait.

 

I have highly developed relative pitch, and it suits me quite well in my own musical work. I can imagine how irritating it would be to have perfect pitch in a relative pitch world.

 

Now, I have a physics question that is tied to this topic: Is there any natural law or property that requires A to vibrate at 440hz, or is that frequency arbitrary? I've studied music extensively, but it has been a while, and I have either forgotten or I was sick the day they tought that subject. If the frequency/name correlation is arbitrary, then how do you explain perfect pitch?

 

Just curious...

 

 

If you can find them, you'd probably find the results of the study I participated in of interest...I don't recall if the results have been officially published yet, but in a nutshell, I believe part of the answer to your question was the combination of genetic predisposition and musical experience. You can't separate out one from another because of the person's musical environment as an influence. By the way, my father is tone deaf and hates music. Go figure that one out!

 

I can't tell you more about the scientific side, but I can tell you about my personal experience:

 

Having perfect pitch means being asked to provide the pitches in choir (hence an early nickname "pitchpipe").

Having perfect pitch means being able to know exactly which note to start playing the melody or bass line, because you hear the note as having a distinct personality different from the others from the scale.

Having perfect pitch means you have a jump start in figuring out just about anything relating to pitches and music.

Having perfect pitch means when you transpose, you're actually moving up each note in your head to the new pitches, as opposed to just "finding a third", for example. Singing harmony becomes just a bit more challenging, but more exact, I guess.

Having perfect pitch means I have literally thousands of songs in my repertoire (including those I don't know I know yet), and it, combined with my years of playing experience, mean that I can be one of those who can say, "if I've heard it, I can play it", or "could ya hum a few bars for me?"

 

Those are pretty spectacular advantages to a professional musician.

 

BUT, a lifetime of musical experience completes the circle. For example, I know that the most common chord changes in popular music are I, IV and V, and I since know the most likely destinations for songs to go chordally, I can guess where a song's gonna go even before I get there. That's my musical instincts talking.

 

Now as far as exact frequencies are concerned, I was raised with our western scale, and personally, (and I may be the only one with PP to feel this way), I can't stand any other scales or tunings. They hurt my ears. Perhaps if I was raised in China, I might have a different take on this.

 

And as to being exact, I alluded to that in a previous post. I find that as I grow older, my "perfection" is lessening (maybe too many years of loud rock music, whatever!), but my overall abilities have improved to take the slack up, so it's still a remarkably helpful tool. When I was 16, I could nail you any pitch you wanted, and I still can for the most part, but now it depends on how I feel physically. BUT my subsequent musical experience has allowed me to include more of a contextual understanding, so...it's all part of the picture.

 

Overall, disadvantages notwithstanding, perfect pitch is a pretty helpful thing. :-)

 

lz

http://www.lauriez.com

http://www.mp3.com/lauriez

[geoffk]

has anyone tried that course that's always advertised in various mags?

[geoffk]

has anyone tried that course that's always advertised in various mags?

[Steve LeBlanc]

Having perfect pitch means being able to know exactly which note to start playing the melody or bass line, because you hear the note as having a distinct personality different from the others from the scale.

 

Having perfect pitch means I have literally thousands of songs in my repertoire (including those I don't know I know yet), and it, combined with my years of playing experience, mean that I can be one of those who can say, "if I've heard it, I can play it", or "could ya hum a few bars for me?"

 

I can do both of these things with ease...these two things in particular are my bread and butter...but I definitly don't have perfect pitch. I also transpose by moving pitches up/down rather than just "finding a third"

 

HENCE THE CONFUSION.

 

I just want to make it clear that you don't need perfect pitch to be an excellent ear player/composer. For three years I did a lot of gigs where I'd never heard any of the songs and had to show up cold...Eartraining made it possible...anyone who puts in the time and effort can train their ears.

 

I've heard you can learn to have perfect pitch by taking a course...but I think you would do more harm than good to your musical ability if you tried to learn that way. I could be wrong there.

[Steve LeBlanc]

oops, double post.

 

This message has been edited by Steve LeBlanc on 07-06-2001 at 01:17 PM

[dansouth]

Originally posted by Steve LeBlanc:

I've heard you can learn to have perfect pitch by taking a course...but I think you would do more harm than good to your musical ability if you tried to learn that way. I could be wrong there.

 

I have to agree with Steve here. Perfect pitch sounds more like a burden than an asset, although those who have it have learned to compensate for it and not let it become too troublesome. Despite the naming convention, I have concluded from reading this thread that a well-developed sense of relative pitch is a more useful asset if for no other reason than the fact that it contains none of the negative baggage associated with perfect pitch, e.g. being uncomfortable with - or not even recognizing - songs played in a different key.

[dansouth]

Originally posted by joegerardi:

"Colour My World" by Chicago for the dominant 7th

 

It's a major seventh, not a dominant, but it IS an excellent example. If you've listened to this song more than once, it's in your head forever. There are some tasty 9 chords in there, as well.

[joegerardi]

Dan:

Sorry, I should have been more specific. It does switch to the dominant towards the end of the intro, so that's where we used it to get that interval. Of course we used the first arpeggio to get the major 7th.

[marino]

Originally posted by lauriez@lauriez.com:

Now as far as exact frequencies are concerned, I was raised with our western scale, and personally, (and I may be the only one with PP to feel this way), I can't stand any other scales or tunings. They hurt my ears. Perhaps if I was raised in China, I might have a different take on this.

 

Thanks Laurie, you're the only one who bothered to answer my question. So I guess people with perfect pitch learn the tempered steps at an early age, and that becomes "the rule", so to speak... Equal temperament can't possibly be "innate" for anybody, I guess.

 

By the way, my father is tone deaf and hates music. Go figure that one out!

 

Ha ha ha.... My dad is the same. Well, it's not that he hates music, he just doesn't understand it. After I started music, he tried to learn the basics, with disastrous results. Go figure...

[Bobro]

Originally posted by marino:

Equal temperament can't possibly be "innate" for anybody, I guess.

 

I've been waiting for someone to mention that. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif a-440/equal temperment wasn't dictated by God, and even here where it was "dictated" by man in the '50s, A-440 at least isn't standard. Recently I heard a Viennese orchestra galloping along in something noticibly higher than A-440, to the detriment of the poor singers, and the first violin busted out a riff quite flat but strangely "in tune", an example of two different "perfect pitches" in conflict I suppose.

 

There was a recent article- can't find the link, it was posted on one of these forums I believe- on recent studies which point toward the (intuitively obvious I would say) conclusion that "perfect pitch" is the natural state, and it's not a matter of being born with, but retaining or relearning it.

 

Anyone who has been around babies a lot has noticed the "copy the faces" stage, and apparently "copy the sound" goes along with that. With time this changes into "relative pitch", using and understanding words and sounds with their own instrument.

 

Once I had put a bit of time between myself and the academic environment amd could breath easy, other musicians started telling me I have perfect pitch, and I do often sing first acappela (to rhythm track) then add instruments afterward when recording. But to me that's just "singing tuned to the piano." Often Middle Eastern and Oriental tunings sound much MORE in tune to me, I think it's about overtones.

 

In the end it's about expression, and if that means singing way the hell "out of tune", but in tune with the color of the music, I'm all for it.

 

Perfect pitch, relative pitch- it's about sensitivity to and awareness, whatever form it takes.

 

Timbre plays a huge role in perception of pitch too, overtones once again.

 

BTW Marino, the lead melody of "Seven Corners" rides beautifully on the music, the tune has more the sound of coconut palms than date palms.

 

-CB