If we're not going to call it Jazz.......

[Franknputer]

Then Ornette Coleman could play Hermalodics?

[Poelo]

"You can call it what you want, but the truth of the matter is that if you call it anything other than Jazz, most people won't know what the hell you're talking about". -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Just if you're lazy! /Poelo

[SFOracle]

Could someone fill me in? What is wrong with calling Jazz jazz? Am I missing something? Poelo seems to think everything is racist, but I don't understand the racist implications of the word Jazz. A quick web search yielded that Jazz or Jass was a Creole adaptation of the French word Chasse (Chasser) which literally means to hunt, but more importantly was a slang term for sex.

[freddynl]

[quote]Originally posted by SFOracle: [b]Could someone fill me in? What is wrong with calling Jazz jazz? Am I missing something? Poelo seems to think everything is racist, but I don't understand the racist implications of the word Jazz. A quick web search yielded that Jazz or Jass was a Creole adaptation of the French word Chasse (Chasser) which literally means to hunt, but more importantly was a slang term for sex.[/b][/quote]So, sex related to music could mean jazz=having sex with your instrument. :D :wave:

[doc taz]

[quote]Originally posted by freddynl: [b]So, sex related to music could mean jazz=having sex with your instrument. :D :wave: [/b][/quote]Damn, no wonder I like jazz so much...now I realize why I'm so damned horny most of the time :love:

[Poelo]

Jotown wrote: Even if Duke Ellington came back from the dead with a signed letter from Miles Davis and Louis Armstrong stating the definitve meaning of the word, there would still be someone here to dispute it, or turn it into a racist rant. Sadly I rarely find anything definitive on these boards, just opinions. And you know what they say about opinions. Anyway, thats my opinion. ------------------------------------------ I do feel you guys value your opinions way to much. I go by what the people who developed the music feels/felt about the word. If they hated the word, as I wrote in an earlier post, then, who are we to say: "I call it whatever I want to till there is proof" or " I don't care about how Max Roach feels about it"? Why don't we for once listen to the greats, even though they were indeed black, shouldn't we still count them as proof? It reminds me of jazz-history books where, for example, Duke is quoted followed by some(of course white)guy saying " We should consider some of what Duke's saying as true". Like black people's opinions about themselves or their music is half-true. Like it's coming from half-people or something. Unfortunately, even black people, some of which are here on this forum, are so used to this, it's almost like their protesting on the behalf of our racist past. That's how we've learned to accept ourselves in society, about our history and our elderly musicians. It doesn't matter if they were geniuses people, living in the Bronx, like Bud Powell. The next pioneer, most likely in hip-hop, would never know that the great Bud used to live next door. And now we're talking about somebody who changed piano-playing forever. In other words, we are taught(blacks and whites), by society and in our environments, not to trust or care about a black persons thoughts or feelings, genius or not genius. Let us not keep calling it anything they didn't like. We know how much they suffered. I mean, even John Coltrane knew how it was like not being able to take a piss in the same toilet as a white person. He lived only about 5-6 years being able to do that(all over the US). Who are we then, after all, to say what they are, or what they should be called? That's ignorance in it's most evil form. /Poelo

[vintagevibe]

It's called JAZZ! Get over it!

[Franknputer]

So - here's a couple interesting quotes: from 1972, during the period that Max Roach stopped recording to protest the exploitation of black musicians: [b]What "jazz" means to me is the worst kind of working conditions, the worst in cultural prejudice . . . The term "jazz" has come to mean the abuse and exploitation of black musicians.[/b] Very telling, especially taken in context of the times. But also - from a later interview in 1987: [b]Jazz is a very democratic musical form. It comes out of a communal experience. We take our respective instruments and collectively create a thing of beauty.[/b] So it would seem that even Max Roach was aware of & exercised the multiple meanings of the word.

[Lee Flier]

[quote]Originally posted by Poelo: [b]I go by what the people who developed the music feels/felt about the word. If they hated the word, as I wrote in an earlier post, then, who are we to say: "I call it whatever I want to till there is proof" or " I don't care about how Max Roach feels about it"?[/b][/quote]Ummmm... first of all, what word would they prefer to use? Second of all, I've never heard anybody before, black or white, say they didn't "approve" of the word "jazz." Including some of the founders of the genre who used the word freely. [quote][b] Why don't we for once listen to the greats, even though they were indeed black, shouldn't we still count them as proof? ... [/b][/quote]This is just more of your bullshit. Of course their opinion counts as "proof" and it has nothing to do with whether they're black. But how racist is it to think that all black people, or even all of the early founders of jazz, have the same opinion? They don't. You can ask one person where the word came from and he may well have a different opinion than the next guy. And my experience of talking to jazz musicians is that they DON'T all agree on the origin of the term. Which is no big deal really. I have certainly never heard ANY black musician refer to the word "jazz" as racist, however. Although there will certainly always be some individuals who will whine about this no matter what word anybody uses. As has been mentioned earlier, at different times different "words" have fallen in and out of favor in terms of what's "racist" and what's not. I try to respect that but if a word is in common usage and I have never heard anybody say it's racist, and then I find out that you know... 3 people think it's racist, or thought it was 50 years ago or something, well, that's not really my problem. I know where my heart is, and if somebody can't figure that out, I don't really want to have much to do with them anyway, no matter what fucking color they are. Tell you what, if I ever talk to Max Roach or see a recent interview where he says he finds the word "jazz" offensive, and he explains why he finds it offensive, and he gives an alternative term that he would prefer to use, I'll consider using it. I'd even go out of my way to explain to other people why I am using it. However, you, sir, are no Max Roach.

[Poelo]

Lee Flier: This is just more of your bullshit. Of course their opinion counts as "proof" and it has nothing to do with whether they're black. But how racist is it to think that all black people, or even all of the early founders of jazz, have the same opinion? They don't. You can ask one person where the word came from and he may well have a different opinion than the next guy. And my experience of talking to jazz musicians is that they DON'T all agree on the origin of the term. Which is no big deal really -------------------------------------------- Most people, and please look it up yourself, who are aware, I did mention a few people who kick your ass musically, and especially the old-timers, who remember the original meaning, hates the word or don't even care to talk about how they feel anymore. How could they when you obviously call it bullshit while you also diss hip-hop with your , so called, rock friends who you're constantly ass-licking, especially if their famous or, in your mind, can benefit your career or hang-status. The originals agree with the term. They all know. Final. They who do not agree do not know. Final. It's also interesting, how you can let the most racist shit pass you by unnoticed when it's someone you know, and get very angry when someone like me remind them of it. You are born in a racist society and you are affected, even if you would never ever let us believe so, here. /Poelo

[Salyphus]

I think this conversation has run its course.

[Poelo]

Kemp: So it would seem that even Max Roach was aware of & exercised the multiple meanings of the word. -------------------------- I still do not understand, or I do, who you are trying to defend. When Max was young of course. If you where in his shoes you would probably after a while stop being a true rebel, cause you want to spend some time in you life relaxing. Even Mingus could use the word Jazz when he was low. There was a time, not long ago, when even prominent leaders called themselves Negroes. There is still a lot of that in our society. It is almost impossible, as a black person, to not be at least a little Uncle Tom in order to have a peaceful and successful life. That goes for most musicians, like Max Roach, too. Sometimes they'll tell you whatever you want to hear just to survive with, if not economical, a good mental health. You should know what I'm talking about! /Poelo

[Bunny Knutson]

Hey, Poelo, maybe you should stop being a true rebel, so you can spend some time in your life relaxing.

[vintagevibe]

I've played with many black jazz musicians. I booked Freddy Cole and played with his bass player. I've known black jazz college professors. All these people call it jazz. Branford Marceles who in addition to being one of the true masters of jazz is somewhat of a jazz historian and gives great homage to the tradition of jazz. He calls it jazz. IT'S CALLED JAZZ and if Poelo has some kind of personal problem with this it is his problem and not ours.

[Franknputer]

So you're trying to tell me that Max Roach, by 1987, had "given up the fight" in order to "lead a good life", and we might forgive him a little Uncle Tom-ing? :confused: I should point out that the second quote was from an article in "Ebony Man" magazine - do you really think he felt the need to "Tom" for that? I'm not trying to defend anyone in particular - but I don't see why you feel the need to attack people regarding this. Here's an interesting quote: [b]"I don't believe in categories of any kind, and when you speak of problems between blacks and whites in the U.S.A. you are referring to categories again." [i] - Duke Ellington [/i][/b]

[D_dup3]

On of my favorite things (as John Coltrane might say...or maybe not) is when, on THE SIMPSONS, Lisa plays that Tom Scott tune, "Black Classical Music Man"! :cool:

[RM]

Wow, Poorello, You still don't get it... Suffice it to say, the old timers alluded here who hated the word Jazz, more than likely would have some rationale, beyond being bitter. Perhaps having done the time literally and figurativly, in the colored line...in or out of sociatial favor... Perhaps, having a less than equal compensation for work (Music) performed, and justifiably so... But lets take a closer look... The early settlers, from Europe, not the proletariat who implemented slavery here, but those at the same tier, economically, although advantaged by color after the onset of forced indenture...had their music too. These forms, evolved from traditional sociatal folk songs and had long been pirated by the classical world for melody and form...as far back as we wish to go With the advent of cross culturization, by association forced or otherwise, the different influences melded as core ethnicities, reliouicities, armies and individuals, imposed or superimposed their talents upon and to or through one another. The varients, are well documentd from the Spanish, British Isles, French, Dutch, German, Arabic, Asian and of course African, influences... After the cival war, groups of entertainers, made their way across the regions, as travelling bards and shows etc, they formed the core of interpolative file sharing... Eventually, the made for the masses out of the vaudville stages and theater crowds, which were formulative in the pop genre, such as Foster etc, began a new ternd, with the gazebo band stands, which became the focal point in many municipalities, ergo, the brass band, Souza etc... IT is these roots, and the varients on rythym and interpetations fro the Creole, and other regional musicial dialects, which spawned the creative urges, of the time... To patently state, that black music, formed all music or most music or any music, even the music herinafter formerly known as jazz, is biased, and racist in the opposite direction... If I were Irish or Scottish, or Belgian or Turkish, and my fore fathers had come from afar to this country some five generations ago, to say that they had no contribution, and only ever copied those of African orign, is what???? Son, you've et a line of stuff, and again says I, sound like you spew, just to see your name in lights, than assume because you editorialize, after the fact, that credence and weight accompany your opinins... Wrong.... RM

[Poelo]

Please Kemp. Music is music period. If you're black your music was/is going to be called something else, and trough history mostly degrading names. That's how the word came about. Still, and I know Max, he will always hate the word as much as he will always hate the word nigger. Who want's to be oppressed or be looked upon as less human? Max was referring to the music in Ebony, and that's what most of us do. But if you ask any serious black musician he will tell you, at least in private, what he thinks. As far as being a Tom, of course. We live in a racist society dude, and it doesn't matter if you call yourself Ebony, Vibe or whatever, you will always have to lick up, at least a bit, to other more powerful so called races in order for you to get a career going. Have you ever watched a south-American soap-opera, and have you ever seen a native-Indian looking person in them? /Poelo

[Poelo]

RM: All I can say to you: Stop reading lying racist books! Souza...LOL LOL LOL ! /Poelo

[Poelo]

Lee Flier: Ummmm... first of all, what word would they prefer to use? ---------------------------- Well, don't get upset, it would take some time. --------------------------------------- Second of all, I've never heard anybody before, black or white, say they didn't "approve" of the word "jazz." Including some of the founders of the genre who used the word freely. ----------------------------------- And what do you know about somebody else using a word freely or not? /Poelo

[whitefang]

I see now, poelo! Rhythm and Blues is a degrading name; Soul is a degrading name; Mowtown is a degrading name; Rap is a degrading name; Hip Hop is a degrading name; Blues is a degrading name. Man, you must REALLY be pissed off! Whitefang

[Jim Roseberry]

I've been fortunate enough to record some worldclass black and white players teching/engineering sessions in Nashville. And you know what sticks out in my mind (especially after reading this thread)? None of us had the slightest care about who was black/white/etc. We were having a great time... trying to make some great music. I'm a white guy... but what I remember most was sitting/talking with an older black man between sessions. This man spoke fluently in 3 different languages, had toured/recorded throughout the world, and was a living part of contemporary music history. In short, he'd played on a hell of a lot more gold records than I. This man could have completely blown me off. But James was a great musician and a great person. He'd just sit down and start talking about different tours... cities throughout the world... musicians... records... etc. I wish I could have taken a week off... just to hang with this guy... and learn more about his life/experiences. These folks were all pros... with a common musical goal. And the level of talent/excitement was invigorating. When the tracks were going down... you knew you were alive. Race??? Never even thought about it... Jim Roseberry [url=http://www.studiocat.com]www.studiocat.com[/url] jim@studiocat.com

[Nawledge]

Poelo, you are letting your own hatred get in the way of your argument. I don't care what you think of white people or white jazz musicians or rock and roll and I think that you and a few other posters here have more in common with each other than you would like to admit, but I was listening to what you had to say, and I was learning about something I hadn't known, but your like all the other people here throwing so much crap ontop of the issue that the real issue is no longer there anymore. so now what, I was trying to learn from you cause you know alot about this but you are as destructive as the people on here spouting crap about how racism is over. (I call it the dont worry be happy syndrome) those people are afraid, and they fear the truth, you obviously do too or you wouldn't just blatantly lash out with lies at those that you disagree with, You know Lee Flier has defended hiphop and the skill it takes, so when you make comments like that you are taking away from what little of a positive contribution you are actualy making in any of these discussions I don't speak for anybody but myself when I say that if you're only here to be hateful, then you are not serving any purpose here.

[Franknputer]

Let me be clear that I do not believe that racism is over - that would be misguided, to say the least. However, I must say that its power is diminishing rapidly, and I believe that, over time, it will be seen for the foolish beliefs it fosters. I already see it in the next generation, a normalcy that the emulation of which has had to be strained for. Ok, I'mm putting on my flame suit now. Whatever your feelings of being oppressed, (and I would NOT deny you those feeling, understand me) you generally do not have to worry about a gang of Klansmen dragging you out of your bed for a lynching because you happened to look at somebody in the grocery. As a black person you are far more able to vote, to own property, to hold executive positions or even political office than your father's generation was. I know it's not real popular to point this out - but progress has been made, and I think it tends to belittle the efforts and the suffering of those who have gone before, to blaze this trail, to fail to acknowledge this. I'm not suggesting that anyone stop their struggle, either. Only that you don't get so wrapped up in waging battles that you miss out on what is is we've all been fighting for. Living well is the best revenge.

[Poelo]

Nawledge wrote: Poelo, you are letting your... ---------------------------------------- Well, I'm human. I was teaching people here from my experience and the original meaning of the word jazz, and people where being rude from left to right. I ignored it and tried to stay in the discussion. When Lee called what i was saying bullshit-racist, I couldn't take it anymore. She claimed, originals doesn't have the same opinion about the word, and that I'm racist for saying they have. First of all, she doesn't have a clue about what she's talking about. To say, and i know what I'm talking about, that the originals think differently about the word, is like saying some people like to be called niggers. Still, of course, she has to say something and call me all kind of names. Doesn't that count Nawledge? Did you also notice how many people that where rude towards me way before I got angry? Why didn't you criticize them? And, what reasons did they really have to be angry? You and Lee(and that's what I told her) never criticize the most ignorant racist posts regarding these subjects, but it's okay to hit at me for some reason. Also, Kemp didn't defend me from all the heat. Instead he also wanted to come at me, even if he knew I'm at least more right than wrong, and especially compared to others around here he prefere saying nothing about. ---------------------------------- I don't care what you think of white people or white jazz musicians or rock and roll and I think that you and a few other posters here have more in common with each other than you would like to admit, but I was listening to what you had to say, and I was learning about something I hadn't known, but your like all the other people here throwing so much crap ontop of the issue that the real issue is no longer there anymore. ----------------------------------------------- Of course, people and humans are the same, but I've been telling, with not much positive response, that black people haven't been treated like that, and that those racist ideas are still within ourselves as people, white and black. Still you waited till I made, according to you, an error. Why didn't you come out before to support or to ask questions or something. Did you perhaps yourself feel fear? Then finally you picket me as the guy to complain about. ------------------------------------------- so now what, I was trying to learn from you cause you know alot about this but you are as destructive as the people on here spouting crap about how racism is over. (I call it the dont worry be happy syndrome) those people are afraid, and they fear the truth, you obviously do too or you wouldn't just blatantly lash out with lies at those that you disagree with -------------------------------- I do feel that Lee has, like all of us, ideas collected from our racist society. -------------------------------------- , You know Lee Flier has defended hiphop and the skill it takes, so when you make comments like that you are taking away from what little of a positive contribution you are actualy making in any of these discussions ------------------------------- You may like her. I find her posts regarding these subjects most ignorant. ------------------------------------------ I don't speak for anybody but myself when I say that if you're only here to be hateful, then you are not serving any purpose here. -------------------------------------- Again, you waited till I got angry, and then you're calling me the bad guy. You are the sad one now for sure. For the rest of you, how can you have an opinion about a subject you know nothing about? What's so shameful of not knowing or asking me if you don't know something? Ask instead of arguing. I'm not into the "who knows best". I talk about things that I know are important. Justice for all. /Poelo

[Nawledge]

Poelo you have misunderstood me, first of all if you think that I haven't said anything about the other posters then you need to re-read my post. the reason I am talking directly to you is because it is your post that is the crux of this issue, and it is the info that you have that I was intrested in. in other words I was having a conversation with you. most of the other stuff that was posted here has been posted before and I know where most of these other people are coming from. the chuck berry thread and now more importantly to me this jazz thread is the first time I've heard of you, the others seem to be more familiar with your post. you ask why don't I say anything about people being rude to you, again I have but you've obviously missed it in the post, why don't I capitalize on it? because I think its really meaningless, some people here post the same thing about any issue regarding race be it jazz hiphop or what ever. someone earlier posted that what really matters is the intentions going on here and I believe that strongly so I don't waste time responding to those post that have under-lying intentions. so you are right i am focusing on you just not for the reason you think, but it is difficult because you are being hateful and anger is no excuse.

[halljams]

[quote]Originally posted by Nawledge: [b]Poelo you have misunderstood me, first of all if you think that I haven't said anything about the other posters then you need to re-read my post. the reason I am talking directly to you is because it is your post that is the crux of this issue, and it is the info that you have that I was intrested in. in other words I was having a conversation with you. most of the other stuff that was posted here has been posted before and I know where most of these other people are coming from. the chuck berry thread and now more importantly to me this jazz thread is the first time I've heard of you, the others seem to be more familiar with your post. you ask why don't I say anything about people being rude to you, again I have but you've obviously missed it in the post, why don't I capitalize on it? because I think its really meaningless, some people here post the same thing about any issue regarding race be it jazz hiphop or what ever. someone earlier posted that what really matters is the intentions going on here and I believe that strongly so I don't waste time responding to those post that have under-lying intentions. so you are right i am focusing on you just not for the reason you think, but it is difficult because you are being hateful and anger is no excuse.[/b][/quote]:thu:

[Kris]

How stupid are you people?!?!? Don't you realize you're all a bunch of F#$%ing racists. Accept this fact and start acting like one damn it!!! Maybe then we can all gain Poelo's acceptance!

[Lee Flier]

[quote]Originally posted by Poelo: [b]When Max was young of course. If you where in his shoes you would probably after a while stop being a true rebel, cause you want to spend some time in you life relaxing. [/b][/quote]And maybe because he just GREW UP and realized that it just wasn't that important in the scheme of things, whether people called his music "jazz" or not. :rolleyes:

[Lee Flier]

[quote]Originally posted by Poelo: [b] It's also interesting, how you can let the most racist shit pass you by unnoticed when it's someone you know, and get very angry when someone like me remind them of it.[/b][/quote]LOL... first of all it doesn't surprise me that you feel I let "the most racist shit" pass me by, because EVERYTHING is a race issue in your mind. I could say that I liked JoeMeek preamps and you'd probably say it was racist of me because it's mostly white rockers who use them and it's a diss on black music if I don't look into what kind of preamps the black engineers use. :rolleyes: Second, I'm not angry at all, I'm pretty much laughing my ass off whenever I respond to one of your posts because they're so ridiculously over the top. You really ought to try out for Jerry Springer. [quote][b] You are born in a racist society and you are affected, even if you would never ever let us believe so, here. [/b][/quote]Hey guess what - I agree with you. We live in a racist society and we all carry some ideas around with us that might be considered racist, sexist, or whatever. I'm grateful for my feminist forebears who fought for my right to vote, to have a career, to abolish laws that prohibit women from having equal rights. And there are still plenty of sexist concepts that are prevalent in our society, but you know... there are bigger problems in the world at this point, problems that affect everyone - male, female, black, white, whoever. I'm a lot more worried about dying young from living in a toxic environment than whether somebody uses a sexist term that I don't like, or that would offend Gloria Steinem. I'd rather get along with people and try to find common ground so we can actually get something done. I suppose that makes me the feminist equivalent of an "Uncle Tom," and there are plenty of feminists who've gotten pissed off at me because I don't want to carry their flag, I actually like men, I'm not interested in appearing at any "Women In Music" or "Women In Audio" conventions. It's just not that big a deal to me because I'm not LOOKING for a big deal. I just play my guitar, do my engineering work, get involved in the environmental and other civic issues that I feel are important. And I think that's a statement in itself anyway, about what a woman can accomplish now compared to a century ago or less. So I'm just gonna take my ignorant racist self down to the studio and record some racist rock'n'roll music, mm-kay? :wave: Damn, if only I could afford some better preamps though. I probably could, if I got paid as much as a man does for doing my job. How am I ever going to get anywhere? Maybe I'll just ditch this whole music thing and devote my life to protesting this evil inequality. :rolleyes: :D