If we're not going to call it Jazz.......

[BP3]

According to Poelo we should not refer too the music of Armstrong, Ellington, and other musical greats as 'Jazz'. So what do we call it?

[gtrmac]

[quote]Originally posted by TinderArts: [b]According to Poelo we should not refer too the music of Armstromg, Ellington, and other musical greats as 'Jazz'. So what do we call it?[/b][/quote]I'll stop calling it Jazz right after I stop calling the music of Chuck Berry Rock & Roll. What a rediculous idea! :eek:

[Valkyrie Sound]

OK... when did you start listening to Poelo? ... and when did this become something that needed a new topic? Valky

[flyscots]

[quote]Originally posted by TinderArts: [b]According to Poelo we should not refer too the music of Armstromg, Ellington, and other musical greats as 'Jazz'. So what do we call it?[/b][/quote]MUSIC Call it what you want I'd say. John Scotsman

[whitefang]

Maybe we should ask Poelo to ask Wynton, Bobby Lyle, Joshua Redmond, Sal Marquez, Wayne Shorter and McCoy Tyner what to call it? I'll go by whatever THEY say! Whitefang

[Nawledge]

you'll have to excuse me I haven't studied black history enough and I'm going to research this, but I think Poelos statement regarding jazz is not actually being addressed here. Maybe his statement is being overshadowed by everyones distaste for him and his post, but I've learned through my experiences with many racist to bypass the messenger and really listen to the information in the messege. I like the word Jazz, and thats what I call the music of all of those artist spoken of earlier, but I used to like the word Nigga also, even though I knew where it came from. of course that was my own ignorance and as my ignorance lessend, so did my taste for that word. the only post of his that I've read have been of the recent thread about chuck berry, I haven't done a search for other post of his that some of you have spoke of because if its anything like the exchange between himself and RM then I can understand why everybody is offended, but anyway what I'm trying to say is that I don't owe any of the great jazz musicians anything. I don't care if they went through terrible racist experiences and still choose to use the word jazz. If I find out that I've been using a word that equates to nigger in music I will stop. I would rather make up a word. I'm not one of those people who believes in taking a negative word and using it as a term of affection, there by taking away its negative power. I think there are enough other words to use or enough creativity in the world to create a positive word for something positive. I feel there is no need to recycle hate like a natural resource, even if it is for some people. someone posted earlier that they would let great jazz musicians decide for them what to call it, I understand that train of thought, but I don't believe anybody is responsible for my dignity outside of myself, other black people and great musicians alike. So if I find out that what he spouted regarding this is true, I will have to give up that word, why would I want to call something I love by a word that was created to call something that somebody else hated. So I'm off to find out whats the truth, either i'll wake up to jazz tomorrow morning as my morning ritual dictates(Andrew Hills Dusk cd in my alarm clock) or to some thing else, maybe pazz, lazz, or fazz, what ever it is it will still be Andrew Hill and the word I use for it won't mean jiggaboo music. of course i want to know what you guys think to, like TinderArts I value your opinions and alot of you cats know way more about black history and jazz than i do.

[Mark Zeger]

Many years ago at the Univ. of Rochester radio station, program host Talik Abdul Bashir referred to the music of Monk, Dolphy, Miles, etc., as "Black Classical Music".

[freddynl]

[quote]Originally posted by TinderArts: [b]According to Poelo we should not refer too the music of Armstromg, Ellington, and other musical greats as 'Jazz'. So what do we call it?[/b][/quote]B-E-B-O-B j-a-z-z

[Franknputer]

[quote]Originally posted by mzeger: [b]Many years ago at the Univ. of Rochester radio station, program host Talik Abdul Bashir referred to the music of Monk, Dolphy, Miles, etc., as "Black Classical Music".[/b][/quote]So then we'd have to refer to Brahms, Beethoven, Motzart, et al as "White Classical Music"? Or to be even more Politically Correct, it will be known as "African-American Classical Music", and "Anglo-European Classical Music". Now, to be fair, we should differentiate further: Anglo-European will break down to Austrian Classical Music, Italian Classical Music, English Classical Music, etc. African-American Classical Music will have to be broken down according to tribal descent, cross-referenced by eventual region of destination and inter-tribal marriages... What a fucking bore, not to mention a great waste of time. It's called Jazz. Most jazz players themselves refer to it this way. What is the sense in getting all worked up about it? [i]A rose, by any other name, would smell as sweet...[/i]

[RM]

I remember in Vegas, 1968, we were stationed at Nellis, and temporary housing for new guys, was at the Moulon Rouge, That was at one time, the hang for the hot crowd, back in 40's as I recall. The club there or bar, was one of the only really black Jazz hangs, during that late 60's period, and the area had become a run down area...go figure... There was one cat, who hung around there, a black gentleman, with and extremely anti white bias, he did associate with me however, more than likely because I was young and impressionable, a musician and a imbibed of the herbness... He taught me that Jazz, as he called it, was the music of his people and the soul. This guy was so, afro'd and anti, I seriously doubt, he would ever had uttered, any derogatory slang terms, that harkined back to any type of white disparagment... I say, it's music, and to most folks, including the black musicians I know or have met, as Jazz... RM

[george costanza]

[quote]Originally posted by Christopher Kemp: [b] [quote]Originally posted by mzeger: [b]Many years ago at the Univ. of Rochester radio station, program host Talik Abdul Bashir referred to the music of Monk, Dolphy, Miles, etc., as "Black Classical Music".[/b][/quote]So then we'd have to refer to Brahms, Beethoven, Motzart, et al as "White Classical Music"? Or to be even more Politically Correct, it will be known as "African-American Classical Music", and "Anglo-European Classical Music". Now, to be fair, we should differentiate further: Anglo-European will break down to Austrian Classical Music, Italian Classical Music, English Classical Music, etc. African-American Classical Music will have to be broken down according to tribal descent, cross-referenced by eventual region of destination and inter-tribal marriages... What a fucking bore, not to mention a great waste of time. It's called Jazz. Most jazz players themselves refer to it this way. What is the sense in getting all worked up about it? [i]A rose, by any other name, would smell as sweet...[/i][/b][/quote]"Black Classical Music" is what Rahsaan Roland Kirk called it, too (whether the term originated with him...?). A lot of people throughout this century have objected to the term "jazz" because of it's alledged vulgar origin (some think it's derived from "jizz")...who knows, the origins of much in this music (as in all history) are clouded. The same applies to "rock&roll", FWIW. Personally I think the best notion about "the music" we can get comes from Ishmael Reed's terrific book [b]Mumbo Jumbo[/b] (if you haven't read it, please do, it will change your outlook about popular music & the entire 20th century!) As far as CK's comments, I think we're losing the idea of "the melting pot"---it's great to know your heritage & respect our forebearers but as we become over-hyphenated we just further seperate ourselves from each other...& in reality, there's only one race of humanity. We may have (or desire to have had) different [i]cultures[/i] but actually anyone growing up in the current USA* has only one culture( though your great-grandparents may've had seperate ones). E PLURIBUS UNUM---[i]NOW, OR ELSE![/i] * I also advocate the use of the term USA for "our" country---America stretches from the Bering Strait to Tierra del Fuego!

[the people of Earth]

[quote]Originally posted by george costanza: [b]...& in reality, there's only one race of humanity. E PLURIBUS UNUM---[i]NOW, OR ELSE![/i] [/b][/quote]What he said! :thu:

[Franknputer]

Yup.

[GeorgeVW]

To begin with, there's no etymological evidence that I've ever been able to find that gives a good origin for the word jazz. There are a couple of West African words (from Woloof, if memory serves) that might, with a little imagination, serve as a tentative origin, and there are other, more salacious stories as well, but nothing that's solidly documented. Until such time as there's some solid evidence, _and_ until my black militant wife tells me that she's decided that it's offensive, I'm gonna keep calling it jazz. George

[Salyphus]

Well, everything I've read has said that the term "Jazz" originated from the word "Jass" which was slang for fucking (just like "Rock 'n' Roll" if my memory serves correctly). A quick search turned up this page: http://www.jass.com/word.html

[Poelo]

From journalist Chris Wong: When I recently interviewed Gary Bartz, the veteran American saxophonist said many provocative things. Ranking up there was the statement that jazz is a negative term, equivalent to a racial slur. He said even Duke Ellington and Miles Davis "hated" the four-letter word. ---------------------------------------- Ad Mingus, Max Roach, Monk... the list goes on forever of people who hates/hated that word. /Poelo

[Franknputer]

Here's one from http://www.wordorigins.org/wordorj.htm [quote][b]Jazz is often referred to as the only truly American art form. The origins of the term, however, have been a matter of debate for years. Many competing theories for the term's origin exist. Some believe that it derives from the name of a musician, either a dancing slave named Jasper from New Orleans circa 1825, or a late-nineteenth century Vicksburg, Mississippi drummer named Charles "Chas" Washington, or a Chicago musician named Jasbo Brown. Others claim it is from a foreign language, either New Orleans French (jaser, meaning to speed up, to chatter, or to make fun), or from Mandingo (jasi, meaning to act out of character), or from Temne (yas, meaning to be energetic). And none other than Jelly Roll Morton claimed to have coined the term. Saying he started using it in 1902 to differentiate the style from ragtime. Finally, in Ken Burns' PBS documentary Jazz (2000), Wynton Marsalis claims that the origin is from the sense of the word meaning copulation. None of these explanations appear to be correct. There is a single 1831 use by Lord Palmerston referring to Talleyrand jazzing, or chattering and telling stories. This is certainly a nonce variation on the French jaser and is unconnected with the later name for the musical style. Morton's claim of coinage is also undoubtedly false. We can't completely dismiss the possibility of an African origin, but there is no strong evidence to support it. And Marsalis is a great trumpet player, but not an authority on etymology. Again, we can't completely dismiss the sexual origin, but that sense postdates the musical sense and the sexual sense probably comes from the musical style, not vice versa. What we do know about the term is that the first known uses are actually from baseball slang, and mean vim, vigor, and pep. The earliest known uses of the term are from a series of baseball articles in March 1913 in the San Francisco Bulletin. In an April issue of the Bulletin, jazz is referred to as a "word that has just joined the language." If the term had been in use before this, especially if it had a sexual sense, the sportswriters would likely have known about it, or would have had any sexual sense pointed out to them after the first use. The earliest recorded use of jazz to refer to the style of music is from 1916. The true etymology of jazz is complicated by several infamous errors, which keep recurring in popular accounts of the word's origin. Even the venerable OED2 makes an error. The big dic first cites the term as appearing in 1909 on a gramophone record Uncle Josh in Society. This is an error. The term didn't appear on the 1909 pressing of the record, but on a later, 1919, edition. Also two French dictionaries Le Nouveau Petit Robert (1993) and Grand Larousse Dictionnaire de la Langue Francais (1975) reference a 1908 use. These are typos; they should read 1918. Finally, the Ken Burns PBS documentary Jazz promulgates the legend that the term was originally spelled jass. While the musical style was often spelled with a double s in the early years, the earliest spellings are with a double z. All the photos in the documentary showing the "jass" spelling postdate the earliest known use of the word in 1913. So in the end, we don't really know where the word jazz comes from. Like the musical style itself, it has no known founder or place of origin. It arises in the early years of the 20th century in America, associated with energy, music, and sex. [/b][quote]A lotta stuff around the word - but racist? Only by inference, and only if you choose to see it that way, IMHO. I don't know about y'all, but I'm from New Orleans, and no one I know has a problem with the word - we're pretty proud of it. But if you like, we can cut to the chase and call it by what it is, and what we've all danced around euphemistically with with every form of music ever played - we'll call it Music To Fuck By. Better? :D

[Jotown]

I had read a quote from Ellington but I have not been able to find it. Basically in it Ellington says that he does not like to call his music Jazz because he felt that it was a limiting description of his music. Also he felt that labeling his music as jazz it would not get the same respect as more revered classical music. In fact Ellingtons later work was very classical, and operatic in form. I have never read Ellingtons ever say that he disliked the term jazz, for racial reasons. I have only read that here.

[Poelo]

Christopher Kemp- I don't know who you are or how you look like but does a book necessarily tell the truth? What or who are you trying to defend? /Poelo

[Salyphus]

I can't vouch for it's accuracy, but I have a book from 1956 called "The Story of Jazz" by Marshall W. Stearns which had this to say on the subject: [i] The general public first began to hear about Jazz in 1917, perhaps the best date for the beginning of the Jazz Age. (The word 'jass'-later 'jazz'-turned up first in Chicago in the middle 'teens with an unprintable meaning.) [/i] The book then goes on to decribe how the music was first introduced to the general public by white men imitating what they heard blacks playing. How very typical :rolleyes: Anyway, it's an interesting subject. I wonder if we'll ever find out anything truly definitive.

[Poelo]

The book then goes on to decribe how the music was first introduced to the general public by white men imitating what they heard blacks playing. How very typical ------------- There you go! Poelo/

[Salyphus]

Well, if that makes Jazz a racial slur, then Rock 'n' Roll, Blues, Country, et al are also racial slurs.

[Jotown]

[quote]Anyway, it's an interesting subject. I wonder if we'll ever find out anything truly definitive.[/quote]The answer to that is [b]NO.[/b] Even if Duke Ellington came back from the dead with a signed letter from Miles Davis and Louis Armstrong stating the definitve meaning of the word, there would still be someone here to dispute it, or turn it into a racist rant. Sadly I rarely find anything definitive on these boards, just opinions. And you know what they say about opinions. Anyway, thats my [b]opinion.[/b]

[Felix_dup1]

You can call it what you want, but the truth of the matter is that if you call it anything other than Jazz, most people won't know what the hell you're talking about.

[whitefang]

What you all seem to let slip by is that due to the fact of limited to no exposure of black jazz bands and musicians from the '20's to about the end of the '30's, there were many white folks who contended that it was blacks who stole the music from whites! A bunch of nonsense, we all know, but true nonetheless. This is what helped perpetrate racist feelings among listeners in later years, mistakenly thinking blacks have taken something from whites and denigrated it, somehow. All this will pass, however. So, I wouldn't worry too much about what was mentioned here. I've lived through times when it was OK to refer to African Americans as "colored", then watched as that time passed. Then we had "Afro-American" that was really short-lived. THEN came the acceptance and insistance of the term "black", which at a time in the past was considered an insult. And now, we're back to "African-American", longer than "Afro-American". And if history serves, soon THIS, TOO, will fall into disfavor. So, don't sweat the "Jazz" nonsense. As it stands now, if people don't make up their minds, no one else is going to GIVE a shit! Whitefang

[Franknputer]

There ya go, fang. Y'know, Jazz is used as such a broad term that it's largely lost any descriptive value. It's slung around like Rock, which used to mean Rock and Roll - something you do not hear on the radio at all anymore, but all of the various offshoots and derivations of instead. My main point is that there is so much else to worry about - why read racism into a word which, as much as anything, inspires respect for those who created it? Poelo, there's plenty of racism left to get upset about - although somewhat less than there used to be, especially since this word entered the popular lexicon. I truly hope that we can all grow out of it. The man to whom you ascribe this great lesson to use the term himself to describe the idiom - whatever his personal feelings, he did not give up the word entirely. As a matter of fact, I wish that something as trivial as this were the biggest difference we had today - I think that would be an indicator of a great level of equality and mutual respect. But until then - isn't there something that this energy would be better spent on? :wave:

[Salyphus]

I agree with the last few posts, in fact I'm thinking there's only one person here who's really in disagreement ;) My feeling is that the intentions of a person are ultimately what count rather than which words they use, when words can have so many different shades of meaning in various contexts.

[henryrobinett]

Well I haven't read ALL of these posts yet. It's late. I just got back from a long day: two recording sessions and a great and long rehearsal. Here's my two bits. The rumor about the derivation of jazz meaning jism or copulation or a derogatory term for people of color, greatly predates Wynton and the Ken Burns show. There are numerous quotes of Mingus, Max Roach, Roland Kirk, -- plus there's a great book (I'm too tired now to search and quote here) called "Reading Jazz" that goes into this as well. This book is a collection of essays and biographies/autobiographies going way back to early pre Armstrong, but none later than the 60s I think. The book [i]itself[/i] predates the Ken Burns show. Now words change their meaning. Any good perusal of any semi-good dictionary will tell you this. I love the music jazz and I love the term jazz. Clearly, whatever it's origins, it doesn't mean jism or copulation now. It means one hell of a beautiful and creative music. Even [i]looking[/i] at the word is cool. The sound of the word is cool. I think it's a beautiful word and a beautiful thing. I also think sex is beautiful for that matter. The word, as all words, is merely a [b]symbol[/b] representing [i]THAT[/i] thing. [i]THAT[/i] thing has come to mean a certain style and creative force of music. Fuck all what anyone else says. If jazz comes to [i]mean[/i] something else other than what it has come to mean, I'll drop it like a hot potato. But as it is jazz is what I love, what I hear and what I do. To me it is still the ultimate of what is hip. For me the word symbolizes what it is. I don't care what Max Roach says. And I've [i]heard[/i] Max Roach use the term many times. So there. :D

[halljams]

I don't even know who poleo is but i almost kinda think he has a point. If you define jazz as music that consists of group improvisation, even if it's only in the non head portion of the tune, then Ellington and alot of Armstrongs music would not fall into this category. Jazz developed ALOT after both those bands or entities ceased. I have talked to people who feel that the art of jazz, jazz in it's purest form, is pure improvisation of all players(reacting to each other) over a scetch or form and often the tune simply starts and ends with that form going anywhere it goes in the middle. That is a much different style of music than Ellington produced. Just cause a tune has a solo in it doesn't make it jazz. Even if Jazz stemmed from those early guys it hadn't taken shape yet as an art form IMO. But the point has been made, what else are ya gonna call it. :)

[Tedster]

[quote]Originally posted by TinderArts: [b]According to Poelo we should not refer too the music of Armstromg, Ellington, and other musical greats as 'Jazz'. So what do we call it?[/b][/quote]"Herman".