If we're not going to call it Jazz.......

[BP3]

Henry, it's not about baiting him. I'm curious if he has any solution to the problem as he sees it. That's the reply I'm after, not the reason why he (and others according to him) thinks jazz is an unacceptable term. His opinion about that has been beat to death, but his offering of an alternate term has not yet been explored by him.

[Nawledge]

Mr.Downchild: I get annoyed, but ultimately, I don't blame them. Too many irresponsible rappers and hip-hoppers are basically creating modern-age minstrelsy without seeming to care. Fine. As long as the dreck is kept away from me...... -------------------------------------------------- as far as I know Mr. Downchild black people were calling each other nigga way before rapmusic. actually way before way before rapmusic, so thats one thing that you can't blame on hip-hoppers. I myself don't think what is on a record obsolves you of the responsibity for what you do. as for the word. I think its meaning is terrible, and I think it sounds terrible. when people say they use it as a term of affection, I think they they are lying to themselves. it is not a word that feels good to hear or say, you can't derrive affection from such a thing, at least not in my opinion. I think black people started calling them selves nigga a very long time ago when some of them gave up on their humanity, as if they meant to say this is all we are and this is all we'll ever be, the white man is right and they could not envision any other existence. Even after slavery things were worse and would be hard to imagine being a black person stranded in this society. (for those of you who don't know) there are places I couldn't go today with out risk of bodily harm, and this its almost 2003. but there were people back then both black and white that would not think of using that word.. ever. today i think it is almost some kind of psychological addiction, people can't seem to stop using it, alot try to stop and even revert to using it. I think it shows just how deeply ingrained the suggestion of hate is within us. theres an attraction for that word like no other its like heroin. I think that throughout history so much power has been focused on it that some people just cant resist. I've used it in the past but I'm free of it now and would never use it again.

[Mr. Downchild]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Nawledge: -------------------------------------------------- as far as I know Mr. Downchild black people were calling each other nigga way before rapmusic. actually way before way before rapmusic, so thats one thing that you can't blame on hip-hoppers. I myself don't think what is on a record obsolves you of the responsibity for what you do. -------------------------------------------------- This is very true, Nawledge. I just bemoan the fact that there are so many rappers (NOT all- check Jam Master Jay- R.I.P) whom have captured the eyes, ears and attention of so many of the worlds young people, and use their power to spread negativity, sexism, and materialism. Anybody who goes against type is looked upon as inauthentic, soft, or "not keeping it real". Now I deal with a lot of kids from the suburbs, who clearly don't know much about urban culture other than what they see on videos and hear on cds. They would start trying to affect certain stereotypical mannerisms, but come off as minstrel characters and clowns. It's basically Amos and Andy for the new millenium. I asked one of the guys why he found that funny, and his answer was "I don't know, yo!" In the recent Rolling Stone, Tom Petty talks about how he discovered the power of words when he was learning to write songs. One needs only to be affected by a Woody Guthrie, Bob Dylan, or a Robert Johnson song to know that sticks and stones may break your bones but in a way, words CAN hurt you. As far as 'the word' goes, I recall hearing Richard Pryor on one of his records talking about his eye-opening visit to Africa, and his discovery there that there are no "niggas" in the world. Hence, he would never refer to himself, or black people as such again- Lenny Bruce not withstanding.

[Nawledge]

Mr. Downchild, I get what you mean, have you seen that new scratch and burn show on mtv, its funny as sad anyway do you know the title of that Richard Pryor album, i've heard it before along time ago and can't seem to find it, i'd like to sample that passage and use it in a song. oh yeah i still think those gangsta/bling/hoe/bitch/ I'd like to thank god and my mama for this award rappers are responsible for what comes out of their mouths, as are the record execs that sign them to contracts and promote them exclusively on Radio MTV, an RapCity. but what do ya expect, those are rappers, an MC wouldn't that.

[D_dup3]

[quote]Originally posted by TinderArts: [b]Henry, it's not about baiting him. I'm curious if he has any solution to the problem as he sees it. That's the reply I'm after, not the reason why he (and others according to him) thinks jazz is an unacceptable term. His opinion about that has been beat to death, but his offering of an alternate term has not yet been explored by him.[/b][/quote]Right on! (& that would maybe lead to the [i]conclusion[/i] of this raveled thread!)

[henryrobinett]

Well as I said, I don't think it's germane whether he needs to explore that or not. What is relevant is the historical implications of the word itself. Now I think the derivations of the word do call it into question. I think also words have many meanings and shift their meanings over time. I have no problem with the word being used to describe what it is describing. But I think it is interesting the possible root words meaning. Yes, and I do think you bait him.

[BP3]

Henry, once again, baiting is not my intention. I know my intentions far better than anyone else. Read the first post on the topic. What it asks is a simple question where a response can be a simple answer. If someone chooses to go off topic, fine. I guess we'll just have to differ on this one.

[RM]

Gee, I thought sure this one had died... I spent an hour on Thursday talking to a successful musician who is well known in the arena formerly known as Jazz... I asked him point blank, if he had ever heard it as an exclusionist term or rendered racisit, which Pooledjello, recants as rant... He (Over 40 now) was absolutly puzzled, by the question. I explained the reason behind the query and also some background on the Berry thread as well. His take, was Berry as an originator was absurd but we agreed a stylist indeed, he also said anglo players were prone to blues(My point exactly) and he actually knew of other folks prior to Berry, which I had little knowledge of and despite P Mon's short replys to me at this juncture, about reading books, I rely on nothing but a crystal ball, I got from a poor retired blues player in Mississippi...Traded a 58 Telecaster for it... As for the idiom in threaded question, he had never heard of any musician, AA, Anglo, Cubano or otherwise, who had mentioned Jazz as a derogatory inference. The good thing is, he said he'd ask around, Henry stop defending the twit.. He's couched here on trollesque patrol, and according to a few who have been here a while, has no real contribution, other then iconoclast, but that seems a bit to gracious a term for someone proving that as in Nazi Germany, history can be reinterpeted for racial perpetuity or gain... He's man or boy or nigga or foolish or young or brave enough to spew here, he certainly should learn the equal reaction to action law of physics and grow from or ignore, the consequences... Also, inferring that those here be racist because they may or may not be ethnically or epidermally or dermatologically imbued as he is, is patently useless information... BTW, I'd love to tell him the story of how two AA sargents of mine, taught me some about Jazz.. To say I was mentored was an understatement, to say I copped was the learning curve in pursuit of a craft, to say I emulated or riffed because I copped would be a lie...I learned and studied the masters, AA, PR, C, Anglo etc..but I created and create my very own sound.... That rare being who could ever prosper as an artist in craft, who had no mentor, has no instruction or sense of history, would be very, very rare..Mozart comes to mind, and I'm sure there are more... As a metahphor for the archtypical mode of improvisation, Jazz is and will be the form, ever fluxed, ever new... Oh, when that head rolled all the way to the back wall, I scooped it up and hurried it off to the kitchen and made it into talk soup, head cheese and ate the stuff from the scalding bowl formed by the skul... I ate Jazz and it was good... BTW Pooledjello, I would bet a beer gut to a nappy, you wouldn't have dared spout such angular nonsense last week to the hundred or so Jazz luminaries assembled at MI in Hollywood, In front of a crowd of your peers like that, you would have kept your ignorance to your self, I guarantee it... They would have bitch slapped you right back to junior high, with merely a glance...sort of like a Tai Kwan master, can knock the crap out of a half dozen students, without even touching them... Yeah tell Stevie or Stantley, they ain't no such thing as Jazz, as they finished the set with an improve of Giant Steps... A couple of guys who know absolutly nothing of racisim... You really need to step up and stop talking as if...of the heart, is the same as from within the heart, As long as you feel racisim is OK in any form...and you allude her it's OK to hate as long as you feel opressed...you will never be whole within...or without RM

[Nawledge]

RM: He's man or boy or nigga or foolish or young or brave enough to spew here, he certainly should learn the equal reaction to action law of physics and grow from or ignore, the consequences... -------------------------------------------------- what the f_ck are you smokin. pay attention to this. man. the question is not Poelos ignorance or yours, both are obvious. the question is about the origins of the word jazz. now you can ask all the over 40's in your neighborhood that is not the point. it is clear that alot of jazz greats use the word, and also clear that there are jazz greats who didn't, and clear that some jazz greats couldn't decide how they felt about it. this is about the origins of the word and how it was first applied to black musicians in america, not how your sargent taught you jazz. so wake up you may not be racist but your lack of respect is challenging at best, i'm no spelling bee but at least i try to spell his name right.

[RM]

Hey Naw... You got some ketchin up to do on this episode... The word Jazz goes back to a Creole word etc as in the very early 1800's and beyond...all of the crap posted here in between livens the resolute and stokes the skeptics but as I said players who make a living in the idiom, outside of R & B and Hop have no idea what he's trying to position here as fact...because as fact it is hyperbole and inference...depending on the source one wishes to engage and then base as reference.... Your boy, has spouted between the lines and in them that racisim is the pervasive method of exclusion... and that message is hidden in the word Jazz...That due... has not been given to those who suffered... as whites pirated and then profited from copping black peoples art forms... This thread and another one..have more data posted from more people black and white, which are contrary to his self absorbed annulment and nhilistic proferings...then you apparantly have read... He likes rileing up folks...it's easier then understanding Frankly age doesn't matter dude...and I'll edit that comment from my post because as I feared, some blunt affected person, would not understand the context...If you really think that anything a newer generation might bring to the table is ever really new, then wait another ten years... I fucking think he's full of shit so sue me... All he can do is spew, non factual innuendo and guise it as righteous anger, it smacks of self loathing at the end of the day all wrapped up in intellectual post struggle, new identity amorphous culture rah rah...as if he's the only guy who ever suffered racial opression...of any kind... Problem is, he'd never barff those comments into a group of Jazz players like those assembled at MI... Believe as you will...if you must...but realize belief is really for those who have no understanding and it's historically a piss poor substitute... If you need proof, just look at religions generally... They posture and cause change some good and a lot bad...based upon beleif...yet using lets say Christmas as an example...that holiday was applied to get the Tueton tribes into the holiday mode, by co-inciding it with their winter solstice...hence the evergreen...ask you local bible scholar, how that squares with the pre Gregorian celebration held well into January, sometimes as late as Febuary... My point is not to denigrate those who believe, they are all unto themselves, on a path to an understanding however, just because they or Poolello say it's so...don't mean it is... RM :bor:

[RM]

Naww....you be less than stellar... Ig-nor-ance, was orginally the loss of attention to the Holy Breath, or third technique of Gnosis...the four inner truths, which allow a human acces to immortality in this lifetime... Only later was it evolved to mean plain ole stupid, and a reflection on one beings ability to comprehend an intellectual precept, usually used to improve ones sense of superiority over another...yours over mine, mine over Pooster and his over anyone else with an opinion... :wave: :cool: So choose any face you want to put lipstick on the pig..and value your mode as long as it's not Dorian, which we all know, the Greeks stole from the Nubian's.... Cut the prostletying...at least to me dude...I'm numb from his pissyness... Cheers RM

[Nawledge]

dude you must be kidding, if Poelo has so much power over you that you can't detatch the information in the post from the poster then I feel sorry for you. the guy provoked some intresting thought if you hadn't noticed, maybe you didn't notice any of the other post surrounding this issue either. There is some credibility in his post, just as there is in some of that jargon you posted but I think you both are un-willing to discuss it reasonably. what is so hard about that, but forget it, I understand you much better now thanks to your last two post and I can see that I can't talk to you about "this issue" so I won't press you. your skill at distraction and being distracted is unparalleled on this forum.

[RM]

Gnawwster... Let the dog sleep.... I saw his point and raised him... The posts were all read and heeded for historicity...as Newt Gingrich calls it... As with any post IMO.......I am interested and appreciate the spirit of his questioned thread, it's his pontificative ambience and lobbed reasoning without foundation which some here find offensive, beyond the real questions asked...and I guess replying in kind might be less the high road...so be it... Thanks for your coaching... Now, your tracking out of Samo?..what cha workin on? Films, Records? Just curious.....

[henryrobinett]

RM I think you are full of BS. I've been around some very great jazz musicians my whole life. Many of them are quite famous. I've played with some and continue to. I think you have an issue with Poelo that, regardless of the subect, you will be in opposition. Poelo's been around quite sometime. He does rile folks. I don't like his manner. Most of the time I disagree with what he has to say. But [i]HE HAS A RIGHT TO SAY IT[/i] and I will defend his right to say it, and anyones right. The term has been a point of small contention for some years by a more militant arm. So it the fuck what? What in the bloody hell is it to you? Mr. "well known jazz musician in your area" isn't aware of this, or you couched the question awkwardly, I don't know. Now if you could provide a full eytomological reference for the word "jazz" that'd be great, because people have been trying to do this for the past 50 plus years, unsuccessfully, hence the bone of possible contention. What's most important is that you are a human being who has an opinion and Mr. Poelo is a human being who has an opinion. Both of you are equally out of line and rude as far as I'm concerned. I don't see you in any better light than I do Poelo. Maybe Poelo rankles you so much because you have a lot in common. "It takes one to know one." Both of you are also anonymous, which takes a lot of guts (not) and tends to lose credence to ones ability to argue, IMO. You both have the right to your opinions without someone else calling you a jerk for having them. And goddamn it, he has a name! Damn it, this pisses me off.

[Tedster]

I agree that everyone has a right to my opinion. :D Seriously though...while everyone has a right to their own opinion, some folks have a knack for posing their opinions to be thought-provoking, and gentlemanly-discussion-fostering...and some have a knack for trying to be the Jerry Springer of the internet...purposely putting forth inflammatory statements, just to watch others get riled.

[freddynl]

To get back to the original topic I'll add a link where you can learn something about the term jass/jazz and how it is/was used about which I intitally gave a hint in my first post already No offense meant to people who know this already, but seeing all the comment's I have the impression some of you need to read some history first and then comment :) http://nfo.net/.WWW/JOC.html oops forgot one; http://www.jass.com/jazzo.html

[Nawledge]

freddynl, maybe I missed something in your links, they talk about jazz, but not about this subject matter concerning jazz, forgive me if i missed it. here is a part copied from the following link, might be of intrest. but i'm still searching. http://www.maxinethompson.com/Karlton.html Most of the innovators of the music - Mary Lou Williams, Coltrane, Miles, Randy Weston, and many others - steer clear of the term "jazz". When I invited Jaki Byard to Cornell to perform with the Cornell University Lab Ensembles (which I direct) he said that he never used "jazz"; instead he said he often referred to it as the music "some call 'jazz'." All African American music, from spirituals and field hollers to "jazz" and hip hop, share a common origin and language; whether sacred or secular in form, they are all closely related musically. The foundation of that language is in African music and culture. African American music evolved systematically from African musical elements and absorbed elements from all the multiplicity of environments in which people of African ancestry found themselves. Although enslaved by merciless and oppressive Europeans, but freed from the restrictions of culture that most other people on Earth encounter, African Americans were placed in a uniquely emancipated position that allowed them to create a modern music unlike any other in the world. "Jazz" involves the highest degree of virtuosity with the context of African American music.

[Franknputer]

Interesting link - but not exactly an unbiased viewpoint. This is from an author with an "Afrocentric" book to sell. [quote]M.T.: Your book is nearly 600 pages. Where did you do most of your research? K.H.: I grew my own personal library, that contains perhaps the majority of the sources consulted in the research. I am a magnet for any information remotely related to the history of Afrocentric music. I spent many years in libraries studying African music (for my Masters thesis), the music of John Coltrane (for my doctoral dissertation), and other research projects.[/quote]So his position is mainly supported by the personal library of someone who describes himself as "a magnet for any information remotely related to the history of Afrocentric music"? The author later makes the statement: [quote]As a result, many people fall deeply in love with "jazz" and other African American music but refuse to acknowledge the origin or creators of the music. Nonetheless, after all is said and done, the innovators of "jazz" remain Scott Joplin, Louis Armstrong, Mary Lou Williams, Billie Holiday, Duke Ellington, Count Basie, Ella Fitzgerald, Charlie Parker, Dizzy Gillespie, Miles Davis, John Coltrane, Donald Byrd, Cecil Taylor, Ornette Coleman, and other African American masters.[/quote]Now, no doubt that these people were great innovators - but the only ones? What about Django Reinhardt, for example? And what of the inference that all of the above people mentioned disliked the word "jazz"? How is that statement backed up? I don't know about others - for me, this isn't terribly compelling.

[freddynl]

[quote]Originally posted by Nawledge: [b]freddynl, maybe I missed something in your links, they talk about jazz, but not about this subject matter concerning jazz, forgive me if i missed it. .[/b][/quote]I think I did not made it clear what I meant. :) What I meant is this; If you look from earliest showup of the word "Jass or Jazz" untill today, you notice a huge diversity in music styles which are all called or referred to as "jazz" in a certain period of time. f.i. dixieland is called today dixieland, but was called "dixieland jazz" in the time period it came out as new music. In my opinion you cannot define the style of music with just calling it "jazz" ., you need to ADD another word to define the style. A logical conclusion from this is in my opinion, that by no means you can define Jazz as some kind of racial word. That looks totally rediculous looking to diversity of styles captured under the word jazz. In fact I think the same is going on today with the word "POP music" now define POP music? I wouldn't be surprised if the word Jass/Jazz originally was invented to define "other music" back then as classic/folk/opera. Kind of like the word "POP" music Note: Being a jazz player, I always ask which style :) during open gig's.

[george costanza]

[quote]Originally posted by henryrobinett: [b]Well as I said, I don't think it's germane whether he needs to explore that or not. What is relevant is the historical implications of the word itself. Now I think the derivations of the word do call it into question. I think also words have many meanings and shift their meanings over time. I have no problem with the word being used to describe what it is describing. But I think it is interesting the possible root words meaning. Yes, and I do think you bait him.[/b][/quote]The "implications" of the term have been "explored" (actually argued about---which is severely different) endlessly in another thread (which started about copyright issues) & then (again apparently endlessly) here... but the very topic name of this thread is "what should it be called if not jazz?" so how can any question be [i]more[/i] germaine?! I never fails to amaze me how some on these forums can miss (avoid?) the point & twist things into a rant about their pet subjects...i.e. they may be "baited" by anything. [BTW, word to the "would-be wise" ([i]not[/i]addressed to you, HR), your statements would be infinitely more clear with better syntax, punctuation & typing.]

[RM]

Henry, amassed uncasterated bovine deposits litter this whole thread, what makes you feel, your opinion is any more valid to either aspect? It's IMO as you say...apparantly a way of life here... The issue is which word was it, does it, has it ever, and who's version are you alluding has the meaning?... More open minded perhaps he should become, and all of the closeted, refernces to who and how and how often the words Jazz were or were not used is really irrelevant...after all the history of this music pre-dates his time frame by several decades and uhmmm...cultures, not all of them Afro anything... If he's got an opinion fine, if you have one fine, I do not have to accept either the logic or the blanket afrocentric (wow what a cool way to shorten a subject) analogous precept that he would persude this forum with...sorry I find the use of race as a platform to continue insipid mongering of questionable historicity, an affront... Too bad and I find no one here any better or worse a judge of character because of anything anyone has said... It's facts and levels of termerity, which burr my saddle... My e-mail is accessable to anyone who feels I'm not BTW...so don't let me ruin your breakfast cereal with additional PH... I guess it's this simple, none of the blacks I know, ever care at all, whether a musician is white, brown, black, yellow, red or blue...all they care about is can someone create... Defend him airing his opine but don't believe that others may find his utterance, out of tune and out of gas...or that one has to accept anything he says...without a 5 pound salt block... Cheers,

[the people of Earth]

We see what you mean, Mr. Costanza...

[henryrobinett]

RM -- I don't accept what he has to say any more or any less than what you have to say. My opinion is [i]MY[/i] opinion and I'm not threatened by others having opinioins that are contrary to my own, in this case. :D I am a professional jazz musician and have been since I was about 17 years old. I'm 45 now. I've played with people who are considered legends. I've hung out with them. I live, breath and eat this music. This music called jazz is crucial to me and my way of life. My opinion on this matter is informed, yet it is still only my opinion. I love the term jazz and I'm not dropping it from my own lexicon. Yet I can appreciate others who have a different opinion. Doesn't threaten me or my way of life. Sheesh!! I think ones ability to play music also has absolutely nothing to do with the color of ones skin. Some of the greatest jazz musicians are white; are black; are Cuban; are Brazilian; are Japanese . . . At one time almost all the great jazz musicians were Black. This was because the learning curve was a little longer for others to get enough of it to be able to adopt. Rhythmic inflections took a lot to assimilate. Same thing happened with non-Cubans trying to play Cuban music. It's very complex. It takes a minute. In the early days all the great innovators [i]were[/i] black. I don't think this should surprise anyone. Please don't try to steal a great source of personal and racial pride away from us. So much has been taken already. But it is no longer held in the domain of Black culture, other than as a once rich museum piece. I hear more innovation coming from Corea, Jarrett, Lovano, Scofield, Metheny, Brecker, Douglas in todays jazz than I do Wynton or most other jazz musicians. Him and his camp or too busy revisting the old fields. Ornette is still kicking but he's already been reduced to a disquieting slumber, as has Cecil Taylor. Rollins is no longer doing anything interesting or challenging. Steve Coleman was at it for awhile . . . But it's not about race! I hear more passionate innovations coming from Europe. They've embraced this music as a serious art form. America is to commercial and crass to be a home for jazz any longer. All I'm talking about is respect. I've gone off on Poelo many times in the past. There's a world of difference between understanding and agreeing. Communication is about [i]understanding[/i]. I [i]understand[/i] Poelos point of view. I don't agree with it. But to [i]understand[/i] is the key. For that matter, believe it or not, I can [i]understand[/i] a member of the Aryan Brotherhood. I'll never agree. But to be able to face, sit and [i]LISTEN[/i] without name calling is key. Otherwise we're just stirring up bile and regurgitating vomit.

[Poelo]

george costanza Wrote: The "implications" of the term have been "explored" (actually argued about---which is severely different) endlessly in another thread (which started about copyright issues) & then (again apparently endlessly) here... but the very topic name of this thread is "what should it be called if not jazz?" so how can any question be more germaine?! I never fails to amaze me how some on these forums can miss (avoid?) the point & twist things into a rant about their pet subjects...i.e. they may be "baited" by anything. [BTW, word to the "would-be wise" (notaddressed to you, HR), your statements would be infinitely more clear with better syntax, punctuation & typing.] --------------------------------------------- Well angel, I think you're missing the point. Most discussions usually starts somewhere and then turn into something else. Don't tell me you're always sticking to the original questions. It's just the nature of the forums you see. Furthermore, a question like this can not be answered that easily. Just a few people around here even tried. We're talking about a long history of an art form here which could be the most sophisticated one to have ever been produced in the US. And to keep in mind, most of it's pioneers where African-Americans who experienced racism in their everyday life. For us to sit here and pull-it-off in a few days would be mildly impossible. Some of you guys are angry because of the subject in itself. Because it's talking about how badly black people have been treated over the years. And so what? It's impossible to talk or deal, in any kind of way, with this "music by some called jazz" without keeping it's racist past or present in mind. If you guys don't want to hear about this, well, go back then and discuss in your usual "Did Paul cut his fingernails before he played the bass line on Day tripper?" threads, if that feels more important to you. If the rest of us wants to stay and discuss this, we're going to do it. Well, bye bye... /Poelo

[RM]

Guys, No one is trying to steal anything... That we assimilated cultures and musicically rooted nuance, all of which harken back to Anhat, the indo mythical, unstruck sound, pervasive and eternal with variously afforded names like Om etc, is a given...(around 4500 BC and before) That's what was given to men as a gift and referenced to when developing as an art form (Inspiriation)...migrated westward and north... before the common era, to the folks living in mesopotamia, africa and southern, then Celtic Europe, Follow that later by the Moorish and Afro indiginous, later afforded to the various conduits of arrival here in the bucket o' woe, we call home... Claiming that a genre, is elementally rooted in a single ethnicity, is what I disagree with... But can we agree to disagree, of course, insults and passions and all of the asides, (I beleive it was a like in kind) beneath the usual aplomb here? Depends on the threads I suppose... Cool no matter what, freedom of expression...

[henryrobinett]

Keep in mind I was referring to [i]JAZZ[/i] and not music. You can look at the lineage. I think there are reasons why this is. By stealing I wasn't referring to stealing of the music but rather not giving due credit to it's origins. I don't know of any serious jazz musician, regardless of color or ability, who doesn't acknowledge it's origins. There's simply no way of getting around it. Do with that as you may . . . Keep in mind though, not that it matters, but I'm fond of both you all assholes. :D

[Nawledge]

i finally see what your truen intentions are Rm, you have been disturbed by the thought that people are giving black people to much credit for the origin of something musical, whether it be jazz or and I guess this goes back to the heart of your other post in the chuck berry thread.. ok cool, you just said it more directly in your last post, no problem man, I just knew we weren't discussing the same topic. I think music is music, I don't care who started it cause we are all one. but this jazz topic does not concern that its just about the words racist connotations plain and simple, so get on board and kick some of that mystical stuff on this subject, forgive me for coming at you a little harsh, I should have waited til I fully understood you before I reacted. ChristopherKemp, that excerpt wasn't an offering of some stone tablet knowledge or something it was just something I found. I don't even know alot about those people in the article but i thought most of you cats would. I've been just searching for things related to jazz as a racist term on google and alot of stuff came up. i'll post anything intresting, in the meantime check this out. it came up in the search because brown trumpet was on the list. http://www.angelfire.com/geek/APRACE/glossary.html

[Franknputer]

Hey Nawledge - I didn't mean anything against you by my comments, I just was putting some things out there after reading the link. It really was interesting to check it out and I guess I came off as sniping at the idea - sorry, my bad. I still think that the guy in the interviw was throwing alot of stuff around without really substantiating it - but in fairness, it was pretty brief. In a way, it says something about the subject when you have to dig really deep to come up with commentary. It's definitely not a mainstream topic of discussion. Not that that has any bearing on it's validity, mind you - just noticing. I really would like to see more on this idea myself. I'm gonna check your other link now - I just wanted to clarify, & let you know I wasn't taking a shot at you. :)

[henryrobinett]

BTW RM and Poelo, that "assholes" comment was truly meant in the most affectionate of ways. I was just fun'un' wit'y'all! I really was. :D I know it sounded harsh, but come on! Yooz guys are harsh guys. You can dish it out. You should be able to takes it, right? Me on the other hand, I'm a real gentle teddy bear, lovable kinda guy. I can't be takin' all that harsh kinda shit, so yooz guys should speak to me with respect and double kindness cause I'm jes' real sensitive 'n shit. :D Sorry. I didn't mean to offend nobody. I love alls you all.

[halljams]

Just out of curiosity what would you guys say if i said i thought that Miles was a dick head, disrespectful, prejudice, drug addict. But he is still probly my favorite musician of all time.