If we're not going to call it Jazz.......

[Franknputer]

Well put, Lee. Color will continue to be a standard for judgement as long as people let it. At some point you have to get past it & let it go, or it will never go away. Personally, I hate to define the world in black and white terms - I prefer living in color.

[D_dup3]

& the beat goes on....the beat goes on... ...la-di-dadi-di...la-di-dadi-da...

[whitefang]

[quote]Originally posted by d: [b]& the beat goes on....the beat goes on... ...la-di-dadi-di...la-di-dadi-da...[/b][/quote]Right you are, d. And it'll KEEP going on as long as people insist on putting these things on life support. I've long given up concerning myself with any issue of race. Someone's always raising the bar, changing the rules, and will NEVER be happy no matter WHAT! I get in these ethnic oppression discourses all the time with my wife, who's Mexican. Often goes on about the prejudice she had to deal with while growing up. Yet, all the while during the interim, she has nothing good to say about Puerto Ricans, Cubans or a few other hispanic branches. I try to remind her that if even all Latino groups can stand united, what can she possibly expect from the GRINGOS? White people are no different. When there are no blacks to kick around, many honkies will splinter off into dislikes for the Irish, Polish, French, Italian, etc., etc., etc. If things REALLY get boring, they'll start on someone's religeous affiliation. And black folks do this, too. "His skin ain't BLACK enough!" "His skin's TOO black!" "He dresses too white!" "Her lips are too thin." "His lips are too THICK." And it all gets too ridiculous. Some people will bitch about anything. And if there isn't anything tangible, they'll MAKE UP something to bitch about. And as far as "jazz" goes, I was mentioning all this stuff to the lady across the street to me. She's 94 years old. Her claim is, that by the time white folks ever HEARD any, The music was long called JAZZ. Whitefang

[Lee Flier]

[quote]Originally posted by Poelo: [b] For the rest of you, how can you have an opinion about a subject you know nothing about? What's so shameful of not knowing or asking me if you don't know something?[/b][/quote]Well let's see... - You don't give your real/full name. - You don't post any of your musical work. - Therefore we have no idea who you really are so why should we trust any information you give us? - Even if your information is accurate, you are not necessarily the spokesman for your entire race. Other black people on this forum have posted opinions contradictory to yours, and I would expect that to be the case. You may call them all "Uncle Toms" if you wish but that's only your opinion. - Sometimes I and others HAVE asked you specific questions and you either don't answer them, or respond with more venomous comments that don't directly deal with the question. It's all about trust. You haven't shown yourself to be a trustworthy source of information, so you shouldn't be surprised if people are skeptical of you.

[Hippie]

The Bible has answers for all these issues. racism -In the eyes of God, we're all the same. (Are you gonna argue with God about who's 'better'?-now that's a risky buisness) Past & current oppressions - It is in the likeness of God to forgive. (the reward will be YOUR victory by no longer being the victim; Remember, the devil 'delights' in your inner turmoil. You're apt to do evil work when you feel victimized.) It is said, 'get wisdom and understanding'. This can ONLY be found by 'embracing His word'. sermon over, Matt

[vintagevibe]

Like everything else in the universe word meanings evolve. If you look up the etymology of Jazz you'll find that in the early part of the 1900's it indeed had vulgar connotations. If you look up boogie-woogie you'll find it was slang for secondary syphilis. Gig was a slang word for vulva. These definitions are no longer valid. Their meanings have changed. The word jazz currently has no vulgar connotations and is used to describe a highly respected form of music. All the great jazz musicians call themselves jazz musicians. To imply that jazz currrently has any other meaning is simply wrong. Anyone who thinks that is has any other meaning is simply wrong. If you are offended by that then unfortunately you're out of luck because it is a very common word with a universally agreed upon meaning that is used by not only the general public but virtually all the contributers to the artform. If I say "hello" and you get offended should I stop using the word 'no'? The answere is no. I had no intenion of offending and used the word in the appropriate context and meaning. The same applies to the word jazz. If you are offended it's a problem you must come to terms with. I can't help you with your problem.

[jeffbayson]

I have been following this thread for the past week, and I have been amazed at how ridiculous it is. I have been hoping it would run its natural course and fade away, but it hasn't. Now I feel that, as a black musician, I can no longer stay silent. I would like to share one my own experiences which may shed some light on this subject. I play the piano in a trio in New York. A couple months ago, we were playing in a popular club in the Village. After our first set, as I was heading for the bar, an enthusiastic (and white) woman approached me and said, "I really enjoy your piano playing. I'm a huge fan. I love jazz." Well, naturally, there was only one thing for me to do. I had to let her know what I thought of her insensitivity. "That's a racist word!" I yelled. She seemed taken aback, a bit confused. "Wha... what...?" she stammered. "I think you misunderstood... I said I love jazz." "Why don't you offer me a watermelon while you're at it!" I seethed. A man sitting behind me snorted. "He's crazy," he said to his companion. "Ignoramus!" I lobbed at the offender. I was starting to attract attention; people were staring at me. The woman had returned to her table, and one of her friends, a black man, now approached me, looking angered. Before he could say his piece, I let him have it: "Uncle Tom!" I shouted. At this point, my drummer gently placed his arm on my elbow, trying to calm me down. Not wanting to be calmed down, I spun around, pulled his arm towards me and locked it in my armpit. In a flash, I tore his head off in my teeth. I spat it at the unbelieving crowd, who cleared a path for it as it rolled across the floor and came to rest under the bar. (I felt a little bad about that later. He was my friend. Plus, he dealt with the club managers, and we hadn't gotten paid yet for the night). Well, after a brief stunned silence, a crowd of people jumped on my back. I struggled, and I was able to pull some arms and legs off with my teeth in the process. There were too many people, though, and to make a long story short, the next thing I knew, I was in a jail cell, and they were calling me a "vampire jazz musician." Since "vampire" orinally meant "reanimated dead," I naturally took this as a direct insult against my deceased ancestors. Since "jazz" originally had a vulgar connotation, it clearly meant they viewed me as a sex fiend. Since "musician" means "one who creates music"... well, they were right on that count, but only by accident, as they only tagged me a "musician" based on their prejudiced view of people who play the piano. Well, that's my story. I hope you didn't find it too offensive. But it's true, so it doesn't matter to me whether you find it offensive or not. If you don't believe me, you obviously have no respect for my culture. So what's my point? Go to the local library and find an Oxford English dictionary. It provides the history of words over the course of the centuries. It's fascinating to see how a word evolves from one meaning to the next. If you knew the history of every word in the English language, you could probably find a reason to be offended every time somebody spoke to you. So: please be careful. If you're looking for the real meaning behind somebody's words, look into the speaker's heart, not an etymology textbook. Being called a "racist" or "Uncle Tom" is incredibly painful. Use these words sparingly.

[Tedster]

Man, I KNEW there was a reason I've been wanting a gig lately... :D :D :D

[Tedster]

Eljefe...that's hilarious! Uh oh..."hilarious"...adj..derived from old Hebrew..meaning to mock fat people who have a physical or mental handicap, and are color blind and tone deaf to boot. Dang! Can't use that one!

[Lee Flier]

ROFL!!! Great post eljefe! :thu: Thanks.

[Joe McDonough]

[quote]Originally posted by mcdonough@musicplayer.com: [b] [quote]Originally posted by eljefe: [b] Go to the local library and find an Oxford English dictionary. It provides the history of words over the course of the centuries. It's fascinating to see how a word evolves from one meaning to the next. If you knew the history of every word in the English language, you could probably find a reason to be offended every time somebody spoke to you. So: please be careful. If you're looking for the real meaning behind somebody's words, look into the speaker's heart, not an etymology textbook. Being called a "racist" or "Uncle Tom" is incredibly painful. Use these words sparingly.[/b][/quote]I just started to read this thread and was going to add something along these lines in that words have a life-line with births, middle ages and deaths. So, to say jazz is racist today is just dumb. Whatever may or may not have been the meaning of the word in 1890 is irrelevant other than the fact that it is interesting to know about the origins of words. Today it defines a great form of music. I suspect Peoblo found out this possible piece of trivia about the word and decided to impress everyone here with this info (supposing it's true). The trouble is that he's all about racial conflicts and used the info to intice others instead of educating others. I've spent a lot of time promoting these forums in various ways over the past 2.5 years. He is one I wish we'd never reached with our invitation to join the group since he doesn't want to talk about music, just how badly the white man has treated the black man over the past 2,000 years.[/b][/quote]

[Nawledge]

for all of you word-ologist how do you feel about the word nigger being used now a days as a term of affection pronounced "nigga"

[Franknputer]

I don't much care for it, myself. I don't really have a problem with it per se, if it really accomplishes the sometimes-stated goal of diffusing the racist connotations associated with the word. However, there is an interesting double standard applied that basically prevents this from happening - that it's OK for black people to say it, but completely unacceptable for anyone else to say it. To me, that's really trying to have it both ways. And from a taste point of view, there's better things you could take on to call yourself other than a racial slur. But what do I know? I'm just a mutt. :D

[Mr. Downchild]

according to Websters: [i]eljefe[/i] 1. spanish for 'the boss. 2. Derogatory (15th century)latin name for 'the jazzmanian devil'. 3. A mythological creature believed to have decapitated overly enthusiastic patrons at the Blue Note, Birdland, and the Savoy. 4. A derogatory term for decapitation: At the end of Braveheart, Mel Gibson got [i]eljefed!!![/i]

[Lee Flier]

ROFL Downchild! :D Dude, when are you putting your old avatar back? I miss the Johnny "Guitar" Watson pic, it's just YOU, man! :)

[Mr. Downchild]

[quote]Originally posted by Nawledge: [b]for all of you word-ologist how do you feel about the word nigger being used now a days as a term of affection pronounced "nigga"[/b][/quote]Like Chris, I don't care for it either, no matter who's saying it. Interestingly, I see so many young, white kids these days into hip-hop and rap, repeating lyrics that they hear on their favorite tunes. More and more often, I hear them repeat "nigga" without realization or irony as they recite the words. I get annoyed, but ultimately, I don't blame them. Too many irresponsible rappers and hip-hoppers are basically creating modern-age minstrelsy without seeming to care. Fine. As long as the dreck is kept away from me......

[jeffbayson]

Careful, Mr. Downchild. Take notice of Christopher Kemp's tagline: "Don't lose your head." Noah Webster tried to define me once. I ate his brain with some fava beans and a nice chianti.

[Mr. Downchild]

[quote]Originally posted by eljefe: [b]Careful, Mr. Downchild. Take notice of Christopher Kemp's tagline: "Don't lose your head." Noah Webster tried to define me once. I ate his brain with some fava beans and a nice chianti.[/b][/quote]:D Hey Lee, you go first! I wanna see that Paul again! (drools in anticipation.....)

[Lee Flier]

OK... (deep breath)... here goes...

[Joe McDonough]

[quote]Originally posted by mcdonough@musicplayer.com: [b][QUOTE]Originally posted by mcdonough@musicplayer.com: [qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by eljefe: [qb] Go to the local library and find an Oxford English dictionary. It provides the history of words over the course of the centuries. It's fascinating to see how a word evolves from one meaning to the next. If you knew the history of every word in the English language, you could probably find a reason to be offended every time somebody spoke to you. So: please be careful. If you're looking for the real meaning behind somebody's words, look into the speaker's heart, not an etymology textbook. Being called a "racist" or "Uncle Tom" is incredibly painful. Use these words sparingly.[/b][/quote]I just started to read this thread and was going to add something along these lines in that words have a life-line with births, middle ages and deaths. So, to say jazz is racist today is just dumb. Whatever may or may not have been the meaning of the word in 1890 is irrelevant other than the fact that it is interesting to know about the origins of words. Today it defines a great form of music. I suspect Peoblo found out this possible piece of trivia about the word and decided to impress everyone here with this info (supposing it's true). The trouble is that he's all about racial conflicts and used the info to intice others instead of educating others. I've spent a lot of time promoting these forums in various ways over the past 2.5 years. He is one I wish we'd never reached with our invitation to join the group since he doesn't want to talk about music, just how badly the white man has treated the black man over the past 2,000 years.

[Mr. Downchild]

[quote]Originally posted by Lee Flier: [b]OK... (deep breath)... here goes...[/b][/quote]AAAALLLLLRIIIIIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Lee Flier]

[quote]Originally posted by Nawledge: [b]for all of you word-ologist how do you feel about the word nigger being used now a days as a term of affection pronounced "nigga"[/b][/quote]Well, not being black, I certainly wouldn't use it myself! And whether any black person wants to use it, I figure is up to them. It seems to be a "healing" thing for some folks, others are bothered by it. I'm not bothered by it in that context myself because I went to school in a totally integrated area of L.A. My school was about equally black, white, Hispanic and Asian, and if anything the black kids RULED the school. Everyone, of all races, seemed to pick up on black slang and use it. The black kids were the funniest and most outspoken ones in the school so the way they spoke was just contagious. And they called each other "nigga" all the time, in fact they even called people that who weren't black, if they were a friend. My first band in school had a black bassist and drummer and they called ME "nigga" all the time, which I found really funny, but they didn't even think about it, it was just a term of endearment. So... it's all about context, I guess!

[Rog]

The only thing I can't work out is if Poelo is a racist troll or a troll who is racist. It's Jazz. Deal with it; many words have offensive origins and are universally accepted as fine to use now. Would Liszt give a shit that that most people call his stuff Classical and not Romantic? what would he have called his music? Do we care? I know what I call it ... brilliant! :)

[Lee Flier]

[quote]Originally posted by Mr. Downchild: [b] [quote]Originally posted by Lee Flier: [b]OK... (deep breath)... here goes...[/b][/quote]AAAALLLLLRIIIIIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!![/b][/quote]Ahhh that's better! :D This avatar changing thing can be traumatic sometimes - like running into your best friend and finding out they've had plastic surgery and look completely different! :D

[Tedster]

I remember a long time ago...my next door neighbor and I were hanging out in the yard. Nice guy, black...we were engaging in the friendly pastime of giving each other shit. So he says something like "Yeah, whatever you say, honky"...and then grins, waiting to see my response. So I say "Yeah right, n..n...ni..." At this point, he was nearly rolling on the ground in hysterics, laughing at the poor white boy who couldn't bring himself to say the "n" word. So I said "Yeah, right, NIGERIAN"...I thought he was going to piss his pants he was laughing so hard. I wish all racist encounters could have the same outcome...

[Poelo]

Joe McDonough wrote: I just started to read this thread and was going to add something along these lines in that words have a life-line with births, middle ages and deaths. So, to say jazz is racist today is just dumb. Whatever may or may not have been the meaning of the word in 1890 is irrelevant other than the fact that it is interesting to know about the origins of words. Today it defines a great form of music. , I suspect Peoblo found out this possible piece of trivia about the word and decided to impress everyone here with this info (supposing it's true). The trouble is that he's all about racial conflicts and used the info to intice others instead of educating others. -------------------------------------- I don't feel the need to impress anyone. Still I believe, from my heart, that musicality is a gift from God, and that awareness and good music goes hand in hand. If you think it's dumb to call jazz a racist word then, that's your opinion but, you are not speaking for the human race. You're also calling some of the greatest, who you've probably tried to be like(Miles Mingus Max Roach Duke etc), dumb as well. Is that what you really think? I just wanted to explain that I not only can understand but also respect their points of view. It's clear that a lot of people don't know much about some of the best musicians that have ever lived, who, and not coincidentally, had darker skin. It's also clear that musicians, here at the musicplayers forum, know a lot more about great white musicians since that information, of course, is more accessible. I think great musicians should get the same exposure regardless of skin-color, but the fact of the matter is not only the shame of American music but also of us, musicians, as a group. Especially since the music, most of us are involved with, have been developed by people with darker skin. How can we create peace, among us, when one side doesn't know anything about the other? I feel the need to comunicate about the truth. There's no good music without it. /Poelo

[Franknputer]

With all due respect, Poelo - people can be great artists and still be dumb. Really dumb. I've worked with enough of them to know that, once you get past the art part, they're just people like anyone else - some are nice, some not so nice, some are assholes. Some are interesting and intelligent, others are not. Now, these men also had to deal with their own stuff in the times they lived in, and that no doubt had an influence ontheir peceptions. But just because they said it, or even believed it with all their heart, doesn't make it so.

[BP3]

Poelo, I've been away for a few days. Have [b]you[/b] made up your mind what [b]you[/b] want to call it? Afterall, that was the point of the topic.

[the people of Earth]

(mute silence in awe of Tinderarts's question)

[henryrobinett]

I thought the question was not too germane. Poelo never posited what it should be called, not that I read anyway. He just said he thought it shouldn't be called jazz. This is his opinion and he's welcome to it. Now would you quit trying to bait him?