Is George W. stupid?

[ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ]

To dansouth@yahoo.com What a nice world we all would live in, if much more people shared your vision!!! Of couse I do NOT mean that all americans are dumb. But, maybe because I was born in a country that used SLOGANS, RELIGION and FLAGS to keep the people dumb, I'm not so happy with what I now ear from some americans. I hate to see that this coward attack has been used to bring nationalist and racist feelings like "Niger Go Home" "Let's Kill All Those Bastards" "GOD Bless America" an crap like that to a level, at least, as low as the ones who killed all those thousands of HUMAN BEINGS. I do NOT belief in ANY GOD. But for those who do, please pray "GOD bless ALL the people on this planet." Lusitano Vagabundo This message has been edited by Lusitano Vagabundo on 09-18-2001 at 10:06 AM

[GZsound]

I am surprised and dismayed at some of these posts. I support anybodys right to express what they feel but it appears the facts are getting lost in the hyperbole. Just a couple of questions...is there some proof that Mr. Bush is not intelligent? He graduated from college, he was a fighter pilot..both require some intelligence. Mr. Gore flunked out of divinity school. Mr. Bush has tried and failed at times and succeeded at times in private industry. Mr. Gore isn't sure how much a loaf of bread costs and has never held a job or started a company in his life. All limo's and high rise hotels. How can anybody blame our current president for the problems we are now experiencing? The terrorists were living here and going to school here for over a year. Mr. Bush has been president for eight months. The "Torrecelli Principle" named after a democrat, stopped the CIA from paying informants. Mr. Clinton, while busy sending our secrets to China, was so intelligent he couldn't make a decision on how to deal with terrorists. He spent so much time "feeling our pain" he simply didn't know what to do if it cost American lives to solve the problem. His multiple scandals kept his attention off this growing problem and he spent most of his time covering his ass. If the ability to be a clever public speaker is all that matters to most of you and is how you guage intelligence, elect Jay Leno as our next president. The Taliban treat women like they don't exist and have no identity. Do we really want to still have Madeline Albright negotiating with them? If the Bush "drill and spill" policy bothers you so much..keep sending your fuel dollars to the middle east. Keep our economy in their control. You obviously feel better having OPEC in control of our country than George Bush. How sad for you. All I can say is I fought in a war for your right to post this nonsense and sometimes it makes me sad. Stupid? Look at the countrys that have climbed on board so far. Look at the restraint that has been shown so far by our leaders. By now, Clinton would have bombed another aspirin factory. We need strength and unity right now. Our country is under attack and it must be stopped. Things are being done now that should have been done during the last eight years. We were warned, our Marines were killed, our Sailors were killed, our diplomats were killed and your pal Clinton did nothing. Is this what you really want? How sad. And a giant belly laugh for our friend from the Netherlands. Without us he would be speaking german and goose stepping to military school every day. His musical creations would be limited to Wagner clones...How sad.. A simple line from an old Little River Band song comes to mind: "What's it like inside your bubble, does your head ever give you trouble?" ------------------ Mark G.

[Anderton]

<> As I'm the one who brought up the Bush energy policy (albeit in the context of saying that I fully support how the president has handled this situation to date), I should probably be the one to reply. I don't want to send fuel dollars to the Middle East. The domestic oil we have is very limited. In my mind, it's like a savings account. We should hold on to that savings account for an EMERGENCY, not spend it now just so that, for example, SUVs can continue to get 12 miles per gallon. Sure, we have to think of today, but we had better think of tomorrow as well. Petroleum is a vital resource that's used in far more than just fuel. There's some question whether the WORLD is running out of oil, but the USA, simply due to geographic reality, is not sitting on vast reserves of oil. If we don't want to be dependent on foreign oil, we need to spend our reserves really, really carefully. I don't want to send fuel dollars to big oil, either. There is a tremendous amount of wasted energy in this country, and focussing on that would probably obviate the need for more drilling. And the benefits of conservation would spread the wealth created (new jobs etc.) among a wider group of people than, say, drilling in Alaska. I try to practice what I preach. I drive a car that gets 45 miles per gallon. I've been recycling everything I can since the mid 70s. I try to use minimal air conditioning (even though I live in Florida), use compact fluorescent light bulbs, use the same sheets over multiple nights in hotels (it's nice they give you that option), and am about to trade in my power-hungry CRTs for LCD panels once I get the $$ together. If every American was really attentive to saving energy wherever possible, we could tell both the Middle East AND big oil to get lost. There are many explanations for the Busy energy policy, including his background and that of many cabinet members. Bush comes from an oil family. I'm not sure it's that simple; I think it's just what he knows. "Need more oil? Then drill for it." But I think the proper answer is "Need more oil? Then reduce the need for oil." The latter makes us more secure, helps the economy, helps the environment, reduces our dependence on sources with questionable good will toward the US, and keeps our petroleum "savings account" intact. What's so dumb about that?

[GZsound]

I agree with everything you say with the exception of "Big Oil". There have been hundreds of small companies that have tried to provide energy and have failed simply because it costs so much to develop the product. Our lives are controlled by big everything. Big electric, big natural gas, big car builders and big media. Sort of like the Darwin theory of business. I agree the CAFE standards are way too low. It's like the car builders don't remember the 70's at all..however, the American folks are the ones that demand these gas guzzling vehicles so they must take some of the blame. My problem is I have yet to find a vehicle that gets over 25 miles to the gallon that I can get all my band equipment into. In these times of difficulties I'm glad we have an administration that is familiar with big oil and defense. Better that than an administration that is mostly familiar with fund raising and working with the Chinese. After all Al Gore wants five dollar a gallon fuel and who do you think that hurts? We need the ability to make decisions based on our best interests, not bend over to these middle eastern countries that hate us and terrorize us..just because we need their oil. And in case you haven't noticed..this is an emergency. ------------------ Mark G.

[Anderton]

<> Yes, but at least so far, not one involving a lack of fuel. My concern would be if there aren't enough petroleum reserves to cover us while getting the oil extracted and moved.

[fuzzbucket]

to the orginal query of this post: GWB is obviously a horrible public speaker. Prior to the attack on the WTC I had no respect for him at all. At this point I'm trying hard to give him some slack because he's what we've got (you've all heard this a million times at this point). I don't share too many political views with his staff/advisors but we can acknowledge that they are some pretty smart MFers and that they have been pretty rational up to this point. As far as the recent posts on this thread concerning dependencies on Middle East oil: I was raised in the Bay Area (with car) but have lived in NYC (no car) for 10 years. Public transit in NYC has it's probems but most of the people that I know here can get by just fine without owning a car. If all of our citys had decent public transit systems our dependencies on foreign oil would be greatly diminshed. One more thing: before last week, as a New Yorker, I was opposed to Rudy and his policies. During this conflict he has been nothing short of perfect. people can and will supprise you kw

[offramp]

gtrmac said: "In view of the fact that I was strongly opposed to the way the election was handled and thought that Bush had basically cheated in order to win I am having a hard time dealing with the fact that the future of the free world is now in his hands. I wish to God that the "cards" were dealt to someone more worthy. I hope he can rise to the occasion and realize the tremendous responsibility he now bears. Responsibility not just for the oil interests which put him in office but for the millions of lives which he will be deciding the future of. Good luck to him, he is all we have, unfortunately, in my opinion." Pretty much how I see it, too. I did not want him in office, but this is what I got. At that point, I take Craig's view, which is that I'll support him as best I can. While I don't think he's 'stupid', I do think he's not 'one of us'. He has never instilled any confidence in me; less so, when asked by a citizen in Boulder, CO. why he felt it necessary to steal an election, he responded: "Ah, who cares what you think!". Not the sort I want in the top seat. Let's hope this 'bullheadedness' pays off in his approach to war...if he pulls this one off, he'll be pulling some incredible numbers out of his ass.

[lrossmusic]

Dansouth wrote: [quote][b]Unfortunately, we Americans notice very little that goes on beyond our borders. Our media are the big culprits. Ironically, we value "freedom of the press," but our press leaves us shackled in the cage of ignorance by shielding us from any news that does not affect our interests directly. We assume, incorrectly, that a "free press" will tell us about everything that's going on. Unfortunately, the press is a business for profit, and un-American news is unprofitable.[/quote][/b] You hit the nail on the head my friend. [quote][b]It's difficult for the electorate to comprehend the damage that policies like Iran-Contra, the Gulf War, or the drug war inflict on innocent people when you have no idea how those people live and what challenges they face on a day to day basis. The press, like outrageous lawsuits, is one of the weakest links in the American system.[/quote][/b] You scored again. [quote][b][i]But the biggest problem is AMERICAN ARROGANCE, an extension of Manifest Destiny and the Monroe Doctrine. - Most Americans don't have a clue what THOSE thing are, by the way. - The rest of the world is deemed inferior, even though we're the only country where the majority of adults speak only one language, we have the highest crime rate, illiteracy rate, and illegitimacy rates in the G7, we are the least family oriented culture in the entire world, etc. Most Americans have been brainwashed since childhood that their country is the best at everything and always will be, period. It's difficult to get past that kind of indoctrination, although I think the kids today are finally starting to get a clue.[/quote][/b][/i] HOMERUN ! TOUCHDOWN ! KNOCKOUT !!!!!! [quote][b]As you've noticed from some of the responses that you've received, Americans suffer from a chauvinistic nationalism, as well, making it all but impossible for them to reflect seriously upon ANY criticism from the outside, whatsoever, no matter how constructive it may be. This could end up to be our downfall, as we cannot become a better county and a better member of the world community until we can discuss our pressing weaknesses with the same energy that we use to flaunt our considerable accomplishments.[/quote][/b] Thanks to YOU Dan, your well expressed views are music to my ears and your talent as a writer matches your musical gifts. This message has been edited by lrossmusic@hotmail.com on 09-20-2001 at 07:11 AM

[alphajerk]

nobody has fought in a war [unless it was WWII] that "protected" our freedoms, dont be dillusional. not korea, not vietnam, not kuwait... and none of the "peacekeeping" efforts either. dubya is an idiot. he is a very controllable idiot. he makes he cringe everytime i see him on tv struggling for words. its not because he is a bad speaker, its because he doesnt have a fucking brain in that stupid head of his. i doubt very seriously he really graduated college, more like his daddy paid for a degree. and i would certainly rather have the diplomacy of al gore over the executioner right now in the presidency. and whats up with "flunking divinity school"? i got fucking kicked out of divinity school, who the fuck cares?

[rold]

LMAO...consider the question answered... [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img]

[rold]

[quote]Originally posted by dansouth@yahoo.com: [b] Unfortunately, we Americans notice very little that goes on beyond our borders. Our media are the big culprits. Ironically, we value "freedom of the press," but our press leaves us shackled in the cage of ignorance by shielding us from any news that does not affect our interests directly. We assume, incorrectly, that a "free press" will tell us about everything that's going on. Unfortunately, the press is a business for profit, and un-American news is unprofitable. .[/b][/quote] I think someone heard you, Dan...check this out: http://www.nypost.com/entertainment/4444.htm Here's a quote: "A top CNN executive has launched a searing attack on the major U.S. television networks, accusing them of failing to give adequate coverage to foreign news. In an op-ed piece in the French newspaper Le Monde, CNN International Networks president Chris Cramer said this failure is hampering Americans' ability to understand the deadly terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon." This message has been edited by rold on 09-19-2001 at 03:15 AM

[D. Gauss]

[quote]Originally posted by alphajerk: [b] i got fucking kicked out of divinity school...[/b][/quote] is that considered divine intervention? -d. gauss

[GuitarMan]

I find dubya B. to be hideously ugly (his personality)and not too bright and I can't see getting behind him now simply out of allegance to my country. America is her people and dubya doesn't give a shit about the average American as was evidenced in Florida when they kept those pesky minorities of of the election by hasseling them with police and other dubious means and technicalities. When someone cares so little about the will of the American people as to steal an election so as to profer their own will and agenda on America it's a sorry ass era... especially sorry to have this goon fronting Anerica at a time like this!

[RKing]

Thanks GZ! I think you accessed the situation with precise accuracy. I thought putting my 2 cents into this tread was a lost cause, but I wanted to let you know that someone else thinks that you are right on!!

[Jeff Klopmeyer]

Alright...I was totally abstaining from this thread, but I'll echo a couple things you've heard already, simply because I believe there are many folks who share this opinion. - I didn't vote for Bush. - He's not a great orator. - He's made questionable policy decisions per my own viewpoint. - He makes strange comments from time to time (rid the world of evil-doers?). - I have been surprised to be impressed with him during this crisis. - I am glad he has a staff that seem well-suited for this situation (Cheney, Powell, Rumsfeld, Rice, Ashcroft and so on). - I wouldn't be too into this team from a civil liberties perspective, but I threw all that shit out when it came time to protect my own ass. - I support him 100% so far in how he's handled this. So that's it. One guy's opinion, which doesn't mean shit. But at least I have it, and I'm not scared to say it since I live in a place that promotes free speech. - Jeff

[Anderton]

Using alternative energy is not an all-or-nothing proposition. It's not cost-effective enough to power a typical house and all that's in it. But it's surprisingly easy in places like the south and southwest to defray at least a few per cent of your energy consumption. Also, more companies are buying back electricity. I had friends in rural parts of California who were hooked up to the grid, but also had solar. They often ended up generating enough electricity at unused times (like when they were away from the house) that the power company would end up buying it back. Now, if the kind of electrical generation was well-matched to an area (solar, wind, hydro, etc.), it's not hard to imagine the US saving a couple per cent of what normally requires a non-renewable resource. Decreased use would not only lessen our dependence on foreign oil (the goal of any exercise involving how to deal with the energy situation), but keep oil prices low.

[Tim Walters]

The reason, or at least a large of part of the reason, that oil is "cheaper" than alternative energy sources is because it's subsidized by the federal government to the tune of several billion dollars per year, mostly in the form of tax breaks.

[Brian T]

[quote]Originally posted by alphajerk: [b]nobody has fought in a war [unless it was WWII] that "protected" our freedoms, dont be dillusional. not korea, not vietnam, not kuwait... and none of the "peacekeeping" efforts either. dubya is an idiot. he is a very controllable idiot. he makes he cringe everytime i see him on tv struggling for words. its not because he is a bad speaker, its because he doesnt have a fucking brain in that stupid head of his. i doubt very seriously he really graduated college, more like his daddy paid for a degree. and i would certainly rather have the diplomacy of al gore over the executioner right now in the presidency. and whats up with "flunking divinity school"? i got fucking kicked out of divinity school, who the fuck cares?[/b][/quote] Read the above post. Notice the level of articulation, or lack of it, to be more precise. Notice the attention paid to basic written communication skills. Notice the word "fuck" or one of it's variants is used three times in a single paragraph, apparently due to the lack of sufficient vocabulary and conjugation skills necessary to express thoughts in a more intelligent fashion. All in all, I find the irony of accusing another person of being an "idiot" in a post this lacking in any expression of intellect itself to be wickedly amusing. In a way, it's a bit like Archie Bunker making fun of somebody. Pretty fun to watch in a sitcom, but just a tad scary when it's real life. Now I'm fully prepared to be the subject of another of alphajerk's eloquent posts. No problem. It will likely be fairly entertaining as well. Let's watch and find out, shall we? Regards, Brian T

[rold]

[quote]Originally posted by Tim Walters: [b]The reason, or at least a large of part of the reason, that oil is "cheaper" than alternative energy sources is because it's subsidized by the federal government to the tune of several billion dollars per year, mostly in the form of tax breaks. [/b][/quote] hmm...wonder how that came to be... [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif[/img] I still don't understand why the process hasn't moved to alternative energy exclusively. Why are we still using coal and nuclear when hydro, wind and solar power in themselves can suffice?

[The Studio Pet-Rock]

[quote]Originally posted by dansouth@yahoo.com: [b]Let's see! In the last week Mr. Bush has promised to "end terrorism" and "rid the world of evil doers". Maybe he's dumber than I thought.[/b][/quote] purse snatcher; "What are you?!!!" George w; "I'm Batman!"

[alphajerk]

hey, i got to dumb it down for the idiots who voted for bush to understand [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif[/img] whats it [b]fucking[/b] matter to you? i guess i didnt make it dumb enough for you to understand. This message has been edited by alphajerk on 09-20-2001 at 05:03 AM

[sign]

[quote]Originally posted by alphajerk: [b]hey, i got to dumb it down for the idiots who voted for bush to understand [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif[/img] whats it [b]fucking[/b] matter to you?[/B][/quote] ROFLMAO [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img]

[rold]

[quote]Originally posted by gbtank@home.com: [b] Read the above post. Notice the level of articulation, or lack of it, to be more precise. Notice the attention paid to basic written communication skills. Notice the word "fuck" or one of it's variants is used three times in a single paragraph, apparently due to the lack of sufficient vocabulary and conjugation skills necessary to express thoughts in a more intelligent fashion. All in all, I find the irony of accusing another person of being an "idiot" in a post this lacking in any expression of intellect itself to be wickedly amusing. In a way, it's a bit like Archie Bunker making fun of somebody. Pretty fun to watch in a sitcom, but just a tad scary when it's real life. Now I'm fully prepared to be the subject of another of alphajerk's eloquent posts. No problem. It will likely be fairly entertaining as well. Let's watch and find out, shall we? Regards, Brian T [/b][/quote] For fuck sakes pull the pickle out of your ass will ya? Not everyone here cares to base their arguments on eloquence or grammatical correctness.

[Kobb]

This thread is disgusting

[good morning]

"Just say no" to rold's pickles.

[Brian T]

[quote]Originally posted by rold: [b]Not everyone here cares to base their arguments on eloquence or grammatical correctness. [/b][/quote] Well that's fairly obvious, don't you think? A number of posts here illustrate your point perfectly. Not a problem until you start accusing other people of being idiots. At that point, how well you express yourself becomes an issue. Especially when poor communication skills are being sited as one of the reasons the President is an "idiot". Since stating someone else is an "idiot" necessarily infers that you think you're superior to them intellectually, my point is valid. It's a good idea to check the mirror now and then. Regards, Brian T

[Lee Flier]

Dan, I think your post is right on the money. And in answer to the thread title, I'll be frank: I think Bush is dumb as a rock, and totally unqualified to be President, and I'm not going to pretend otherwise out of "patriotism" - I think if you really love your country you owe it to yourself and your country to be clear headed and honest in your assessments. I agree with Alpha: it's not just that the guy is a bad orator, he clearly and visibly just doesn't know what's going on. If a speech is written for him he does all right, but when called on to answer questions he simply is way in over his head. I also felt during his campaign and shortly after he took office, that he displayed a good-ol'-boy type of arrogance that really scared me, very similar to his father, who scares the living crap out of me because I KNOW very well some of the horrendous policies enacted by Bush Sr. both as president and as head of the CIA and DEA. HOWEVER... when GW was running for office, it was remarked by many that his greatest asset was that he always surrounded himself with good people to advise him, and that to his credit he generally listened to these people. I have seen that to be true in the wake of this crisis. I am extremely impressed with Powell, Cheney, et al, and even Ashcroft (whose appointment I did not support) has surprised me so far. I am heartened too that Bush is making repeated assertions that this is not a war on Islam and that we must refrain from targeting Arab-Americans or Arabs in general other than the actual terrorists. I've also been more than impressed with Mayor Rudy, whom I have also not supported in the past. Bush may be a mere puppet or figurehead, but at least the people who are really pulling the strings seem to be on the mark so far, and Bush is not getting in their way. I'll give him credit for that. --Lee This message has been edited by Lee Flier on 09-20-2001 at 11:14 AM

[Chip McDonald]

[quote]Originally posted by Lee Flier: [b]Bush may be a mere puppet or figurehead, but at least the people who are really pulling the strings seem to be on the mark so far, and Bush is not getting in their way. [/b][/quote] What's funny is that I've seen, on two distinct occasions, Cheney say "I have been... I mean, the president has been".... ------------------ [b]New and Improved Music Soon:[/b] http://www.mp3.com/chipmcdonald

[Anderton]

Leave it to Lee to state a clear, concise summary of the situation with which I'm sure many people agree. Hey Lee -- if you bleach your hair, get some judicious plastic surgery, and lower your IQ about 30 points, you could get a cushy gig as a network anchor!

[Anderton]

Note to self: remind everyone on these forums that ad hominem arguments are not only a logical fallacy, but accomplish nothing.