ringo

[comfortat]

If this is discussed on some other thread, let me know, I'll read up on it there.

 

A houston radio station, kkrw, had a poll recently of the best drummers of all time. The usual suspects, neil peart, carl palmer, bonham, moon, buddy rich etc. Ringo came in #5.

 

Several people called in (some were musicians) saying what a joke it was that he was #5. One guy even said, "If only the beatles had had a good drummer..."

 

This, of course set off a lot of laughter and comments like, "What, they woulda been the greatest band in the world?"; "They woulda been rich and famous?"; "They woulda been recognizable the world over?" etc.

 

Someone else folowed this up with, "John, Paul, George, and Ringo is still the only band that can be named off by there first names alone and be instantly recognized by generations of people. What if it hadn't been Ringo? What about J,P, G, and Bill?"

 

Then a man who identified himself as a drumstick manufacturer in Houston called. He claimed to make custom drumsticks for alot of the great drummers in the world. He stated that he had "talked shop" with all of them. He said that to a man, Ringo was described as an incredible drummer. I will paraphrase here: "What seperated Ringo was his ability to keep PERFECT time, all the time. He gets short shrift for not being flashy and innovative. But he was playin for the Beatles, and what they needed was a drummer who could keep perfect time at all times. Unlike most drummers of the time, he played the drums on all takes. The others would record the right beat and "loop" it or overdub it. Ringo played it perfectly all the time, there was no need for them to do this with him. He was the first drummer to have his drum set elevated above the band. The truth is, the Beatles were a great band because of him, not in spite of him." (not him alone, he wasn't implying that)

 

My question is: Is this true? Does Ringo not get enuff credit for what he did? (as if any of the fab four need more credit... LOL) I just thot I'd ask here because the other forums on this site have given me good answers, and I figured you would, too. This is not a poll for "greatest drummer of all time". I'm looking for insight into Ringo and your perceptions of him and his playing.

 

Also, what influence has he had on drummers? The Beatles as a group influenced musicians of all stripes. Did Ringo influence you or change the way drums are played?

[coyote]

Ringo was as much an influence on me as Carl Palmer or Buddy Rich. Ringo played exactly what served the music best, and no matter your level of 'chops' you simply cannot do better than that.

 

Those who denigrate Ringo don't really know music.

[Hound Dog]

Someone once said that Ringo plays "songs" on the drums, not just beats, fills and patterns.

 

I think the entire work of the Beatles speaks of their ability to avoid being musically flashy for the sake of being flashy. The song always came first. They already had all the attention they needed. Imagine George introducing solos of blinding speed to those classic songs. They knew better. I admire that.

[Beatnik]

Well, to me Ringo is one of the Greatest Drummers

Here is one link in this forum about Ringo:

http://www.musicplayer.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=001325#000000

[Injun Killer]

Here's a quote from Jimmy Nichols, who sat in for a sick Ringo during one of the Beatles' tours:

 

I think I was accepted by most of the fans 'cause I fit in. I wore the suit and hair and tried to play like Ringo in his nonchalant fashion.

Great description of Ringo's style.

[Jode]

Love him or hate him, Ringo has one distinction that no one can take away: he is personally responsible for more kids picking up a pair of drumsticks than any other drummer in history.

[comfortat]

Beatnik:

 

Thx for the link. Very informative.

 

For someone who does not play the drums (like me) I think it is the hardest instument to discern what they are doing. With the piano, guiter, bass, etc, you have a pretty good sense (plus you can usually watch them) of what they are playing and how.

 

Thank you for all these comments fellas. And, might I add, "more more more"!

[Tedly Nightshade]

I guess to get me rhapsodize about Ringo, you have to talk some shit. I'm not seeing that here, so I have little to say: perfect time, perfect feel, awe-inspiring fills (check out the fill where the drums come in on Strawberry Fields Forever!), who else could play fills all the way through A Day in the Life and have it be perfectly appropriate, plays SONGS, yes he does, what to say?

 

My hero.

[djarrett]

You know, ... my friend Gregg Bissonette does an entire clinic tour on Ringo. He provides transcripts for the music and plays to the original music less Ringo, ... to demonstrate the great drum parts that Ringo played.

Those that say Ringo was not a great drummer, are simply not a student of the instrument.

DJ

[Tedly Nightshade]

Originally posted by djarrett:

You know, ... my friend Gregg Bissonette does an entire clinic tour on Ringo. He provides transcripts for the music and plays to the original music less Ringo, ... to demonstrate the great drum parts that Ringo played.

Those that say Ringo was not a great drummer, are simply not a student of the instrument.

DJ

I heard about that, thought that was so cool! Still do. Teach them whippersnappers a thing or two!

[ihategarybettman]

To clueless pinheads who say that Ringo sucked, I always reply, "Oh, yeah? What would you play differently?" That always stops them dead in their tracks, because everything Ringo played was perfect for the song, which is remarkable considering the breadth of musical styles the Beatles' music spans.

[adam b_dup1]

Ringo is not innovative? for a start he changed the way just about all drummers hold their sticks

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by comfortat:

For someone who does not play the drums (like me) I think it is the hardest instument to discern what they are doing. With the piano, guiter, bass, etc, you have a pretty good sense (plus you can usually watch them) of what they are playing and how.

Well, you can do the same with drummers too ya know. Whether you realize it or not, the drums are really the first thing you hear about a song - they set the "feel" for everything else. To some, that makes them kinda invisible. To me, it's probably the first thing I pay attention to (even though I'm not a drummer).

 

As for Ringo... I second what everybody else said. I think it's funny that people can have so much respect for the Beatles' music and then knock Ringo as a drummer. You know, the Beatles fired somebody else to get Ringo in there. Do you think they'd have stuck with Ringo if they thought he sucked? He was PERFECT for the Beatles, and he played the perfect parts for the whole variety of their catalog. George Martin has said repeatedly that it was a very rare thing for him to flub a part or miss a beat in the studio. He played to the songs, and realized he was there to play to the songs.

 

I think the "What would you play differently" line is great!

[ihategarybettman]

Thanks, Lee, for the compliment on the line. George Martin also has said that the prolific and creative overdubbing the Beatles did would have been nearly impossible without Ringo's phenomenal sense of time.

[Tedly Nightshade]

Originally posted by ihategarybettman:

Thanks, Lee, for the compliment on the line. George Martin also has said that the prolific and creative overdubbing the Beatles did would have been nearly impossible without Ringo's phenomenal sense of time.

Interesting- Bob Ohlsson and I are having a discussion about the Beatles order of recording, from Rubber Soul on, over at gearslutz- he's heard the drums were dubbed *last*! Which would rather contradict the George Martin statement above. If Lee or anybody else has any hard dope on this, I would love to hear about it, here or there (and everywhere... )

[Lee Flier]

How does that contradict George Martin's statement? I always thought what Sir George meant was that Ringo had such a perfect sense of time that he could listen to a previously recorded track and be able to follow it on an overdub.

[ihategarybettman]

Sir George also implied that it made splicing individual pieces of tape much easier, because of the consistent time.

[Tedly Nightshade]

Originally posted by Lee Flier:

How does that contradict George Martin's statement? I always thought what Sir George meant was that Ringo had such a perfect sense of time that he could listen to a previously recorded track and be able to follow it on an overdub.

I thought Sir George meant that since the basic tracks, including drums, were so solid timewise, because of Ringo's participation on those tracks, overdubs were a thing of joy.

 

I would think if the basic tracks were done without Ringo, the other boys must have had such wondrous time that all Ringo had to do was not fuck it up...

 

What is your take on the typical order of tracking? Do you think the drums were overdubbed most times or part of the first tracks recorded? Any sources for definitive info here?

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by Ted Nightshade:

I would think if the basic tracks were done without Ringo, the other boys must have had such wondrous time that all Ringo had to do was not fuck it up...

Well, if you've ever looked at Beatles records in a DAW, you'll see that's not the case. There are a lot of timing variations - many intentional of course - and Ringo apparently managed to listen and follow along with them all.

 

What is your take on the typical order of tracking? Do you think the drums were overdubbed most times or part of the first tracks recorded? Any sources for definitive info here?

Yeah, "The Beatles Recording Sessions" has a lot of pretty definitive info, in that it tells exactly what tracks they recorded or mixed at each session. George Martin's book has quite a lot of info too. On the later recordings, the drums WERE put on last quite a number of times. I don't know if I'd say more often than not, but enough that it would make life very difficult for a lot of drummers. I mean, there's stuff like "Strawberry Fields" where there was one take that was just the band playing it and then one with the orchestra. They were in slightly different keys and different tempos, and Lennon decides he wants the first half of the band version and the second half of the orchestra version edited together. Martin discovered that by pure lucky accident, if he slowed down the orchestral version to the tempo of the band version, the keys matched up. So he spliced em together that way and then Ringo had to overdub the drums on the orchestral part. And there are certainly ritards and stuff there. It takes a REAL sense of time - as opposed to a metronomic sense of time - to be able to pull something like that off. I believe on "A Day In the Life" the drums were overdubbed last as well, and ya know... geez.

 

Along the same lines, Spyder (our drummer) once wanted to overdub a fill at the beginning of a song, and there was no count-in because originally it had started with drums anyway. He listened to the track a couple of times and heard a couple of random little rattles on the snare a few seconds before he'd started in on the original take. He was able to time his fill off those little rattles, and come in perfectly on the first beat when the song actually started. Now that's what I'm talkin' about!

 

Not that I would want to make a habit of putting a drummer through that kind of thing. I think it's usually better to have humans playing together in the same room and let the drummer be the one setting the table for the feel and tempo. And the Beatles certainly did that a lot too. But it's nice to know you have a drummer who can bail you out if you (or he) get some wacky idea that requires a drum overdub!

[doc taz]

Personally, to make songs more "live" I'd just record everyone together on the basic tracks, vocals included. Of course, this will require more takes, but is usually better IMO. Depends on the band, though.

 

As for Ringo, I love him. Even years of listening to drummers on speed hasn't changed that for me. I also like his whimsical vocal style, too. Maybe that's why I have a particular (slightly altered) lyric on my sig.

[Tedly Nightshade]

That's nuts about Spyder!

 

You know I think "sense of time" doesn't begin to cover it... the just whole sense of what fucking needs to be PLAYED. Excuse my french, I got kinda excited there...

 

One more round for that sicko drum fill into the groove of Strawberry Fields- what a casual epic that is.

 

"Casual epic" is one of my things- I try to live up to it, it's so devastingly ... supply adjective if you can find one.

 

Dr. Taz, over here we overdub nothing, nada, ziltch, we do hundreds of takes, and I have a cool li'l CD coming up with 10 minutes off of 20-some 10" reels of tape. No joke!

 

You gotta have a real need ...

 

Plus you can take it with you, anywhere you play, and that's it's own reward.

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by Ted Nightshade:

That's nuts about Spyder!

I thought so! I certainly would never have thought of doing that or asking anybody else to do that - he just came up with the idea on his own. If it's damn near impossible then he'll probably want to do it just so he can say he did.

 

You know I think "sense of time" doesn't begin to cover it... the just whole sense of what fucking needs to be PLAYED.

Yep, that's it!

 

One more round for that sicko drum fill into the groove of Strawberry Fields- what a casual epic that is.

Indeed!!

 

Dr. Taz, over here we overdub nothing, nada, ziltch, we do hundreds of takes, and I have a cool li'l CD coming up with 10 minutes off of 20-some 10" reels of tape. No joke!

Hee... that's a great commitment for sure. I think we take more of a Beatles approach around here... we'll do it any way that serves the song and the arrangement. Most times that means cutting the basic tracks in the same room and just overdubbing a few things, but we're not opposed to letting wacky things happen. Also I think there's something really profound about the whole idea of a recording that maybe people take for granted nowadays... I do a lot of guitar overdubs sitting by myself in a darkened room, and when I hear the tracks in the phones it's as if the boys are there in the room with me. I feel like we're that "tuned in" and the alchemy is so strong that we can create it pretty much on demand. It's kind of freaky and exciting to hear that happen on an overdub... like being able to interact with spirits or something.

[Tedster]

rIngO RuLeZ!

 

Every time I listen to a Beatles record or CD, I marvel at its perfect simplicity. 1000 Yngwies, 1000 Billy Cobhams, 1000 Jacos couldn't have made it any better than it was. They just would have added more notes.

[bassdrummer]

One cool thing about Ringo is that he was a lefty playing a right handed setup. That made for some interesting left hand lead fills. I'm a Ringo fan. Too bad he gets so little respect from the noneducated musicians and the general public. Modern Drummer magazine rightfully named him as one of the top 100 drummers of all time simply because of his influence -- he made kids want to become drummers!

[ihategarybettman]

Gene Krupa once said that a good drummer is one who plays what's right for the music. That's Ringo in a nutshell.

[schmee]

Originally posted by Lee Flier:

[QBAlong the same lines, Spyder (our drummer) once wanted to overdub a fill at the beginning of a song...[/QB]

hehe i've had to do that a few times with various instruments - although it took me a lot more than a couple listens and a first attempt to nail, that's tits.

 

i have developed a very regimented track assembly now because of this, where i always lay down a click and leave plenty of space up front before any note is struck in case i get a wild hair later on.

 

years before i ever tried to play drums but still worshipped them, the very best groove drummer i've ever known once spent about 30 minutes singing the praises of ringo, which really surprised me as i'd never heard him praise any straight-forward style musicians - he usually worshipping in the depths of jazz/funk/blues traditions so his praise for ringo seemed terribly out of character.

 

later, especially after a lot of reggae listening, i came to appreciate ringo's subtle changes to rock drumming, in addition to all the solid qualities spoken of here.

 

he really did *change* a lot of the ideas of rock drumming at the time. a lot fo the simple ideas he had were not really heard before him.

 

one of my favorite drum fills of all time is a single flam hanging way out in the open in the middle of exodus's natural mystic in the studio. this kind of thing was indicative imho of what ringo did so well - i like the term "casual epic" as a descriptor, if that's what you mean.

 

[GreggTL]

Several posts above I loved what the guy said about 'if you didn't like what Ringo played what would you play different?' That really shuts 'em up, doesn't it? I love these Ringo threads that come up a few times a year. It gives real musicians an opportunity to express our love for Ringo and his playing.

[I I mjrn]

Regarding the overdubbing of drums "last":

 

The Beatles (well, Martin actually) were in the forefront of developing techniques now taken for granted & this is another example.

Often bass tracks, another element that we'd think of as part of the basic track, were overdubbed later, too.

However there was a different approach at work.

For most of the Beatles career, they did basic tracks on a 2 or 4 track recorder; only at the end of their career (1968 or later) did they have an 8 track available, although they did use a variety of methods such as bouncing/mixing & even syncing sets of 4 track recorders.

That 8 track is what would've allowed the re-recording of basic drum tracks.

Any re-dubbing prior to that time---& for all their helpfulness, Martin's or Mark Lewisohn's (author of Complete Sessions, etc.) books are not reall precise in their outlining of techniques---would've involved either removing the basic track that held the drums or, more likely, adding fills on top of a very basic drum performance.

 

None of that is meant to (nor does it) detract from Ringo's very definite abilities. After all, he was able to follow John Lennon's often rather odd sense of meter (check out "All You Need is Love" or "Happiness is a Warm Gun")...but neither does that cancel the fact that in some cases both Lennon &, more usually, McCartney were not fully happy with his work.

(Monomaniacal prima donnas can be hard to satisfy!)