Jazzman Posted July 8, 2003 Share Posted July 8, 2003 I am really flabergasted by the quantity, quality, metal types, sizes, makes and models of cymbals everyone is selling on the market today. Does it really matter?? If you had to pick 4 cymbals for a gig, would you change them out for a different gig if all you played was Rock, or Jazz? I think in Jazz I would tend to have a more variety of cymbals on stage, because of the nature of the music. In Rock I would tend to think 4 would be a standard set to have, maybe 5 of them. But would you change out the cymbal types for another gig, I think not. So why so many types when I think the market could do away with half of them and everyone would not even notice. I think most of it is just hype, and having a designer type or a signature type on the stand of our mentors! What are your thoughts? Jazzman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freelance Posted July 8, 2003 Share Posted July 8, 2003 I agree - there are too many to choose from. The same could be said for sticks (really, does that milagram or centimeter difference between two models of sticks really make that much difference???) However, as a drummer who came up in the 50's & 60's when drummers had very limited options, I would prefer more options than less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djarrett Posted July 8, 2003 Share Posted July 8, 2003 Hey, I agree with Freelance, however, I just wonder (being an industry "insider") how all these companies stay afloat. Same with Guitars. You would think people are buying drumsticks and using them to heat their house with the wood! Anyway, I digress! There is what we call the cymbal basic triangle. It is comprised of Hihat, Crash, and Ride. Anything added after that is considered an effect cymbal ... or what I consider gravy! I happen to love cymbals. I have a pretty large inventory and really do not use them all. I already carry two large cymbal bags to gigs! (oh, my aching back!) I see cymbals as the watercolor we drummers paint with. I would rather have less drums and more cymbals. That is just my opinion however. DJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D. Gauss Posted July 8, 2003 Share Posted July 8, 2003 Originally posted by djarrett: Hihat, Crash, and Ride. Anything added after that is considered an effect cymbal 3 sounds about right to me. heck, if yer "the cramps" or "the who," ya don't even need the highhat. (or if yer ac/dc ya don't need the ride)... -d. gauss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
offramp Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 Jazzman, I used to change out my cymbals depending on the gig. (Change out is a bit of a misnomer, really...it was more like 'which bag'?) The hats I used for rock gigs, for example, were way too attention-getting for other gigs; too heavy, too bright. I remember once asking an engineer--at one of the bigger studios in Indy-- which hats he preferred I use for the tracking and he said "Hats are hats". I was stunned, and I didn't wanna argue with him, so I just used whatever came out of the bag, but those tracks have bugged me to this day because of the hat sound. When I first heard the opening to "Synchronicity I", I simply HAD to have that ride sound that Copeland had; I ended up getting a Paiste RUDE ride of the era and nailed the sound to a "T". I would NOT, haowever, have taken that ride to a jazz gig at any point. Just too 'there'. I think, between ancient craft and modern technology, we've done just about all we can with cymbals. After that, it's up to the marketing department to convince us it sounds different, and frankly, I'm not...especially since you read ads today that end up using the same adjectives to describe the cymbals as were used in, say, 1978. I'd think what would be an effective marketing tool is to have name-brand engineers (Lord-Alge, SImon Osbourne, etc) in on the act, relaying their experiences with mic'ing cymbals, sort of a "I had to only roll off a little of the low end; these cymbals spoke perfectly for the tracks and never got out of control!", or "I can work the stage mix all night and never have to worry about where these things sit!". I've upped my standards; now, up yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jode Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 Originally posted by djarrett: I would rather have less drums and more cymbals. That is just my opinion however. DJI think it may be mine, too. I could play forever with only a hi-hat, crash, and ride (that would crash too), but I play what I prefer: three crashes, ride, china, 2 splashes. These are the instruments I feel I need to best execute the ideas that I have. On the other hand, I'm thinking about putting a bunch of stuff in the closet and making myself practice on a Ringo kit for a while. Four drums, three cymbals, and nowhere to hide. Now that's drumming like a MAN. (no offense to the girls) "I had to have something, and it wasn't there. I couldn't go down the street and buy it, so I built it." Les Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reachjkh Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 Originally posted by djarrett: I would rather have less drums and more cymbals. That is just my opinion however.I am a relative beginner to the drums compared to several of you, but I have to agree. I have a seven piece drum set plus a djembe, but I find that what really grabs me is just a simple four piece set (five if you count the djembe). I put the rest back in their cases. However, I just love having several cymbals to choose from when I play. I use the standard hat/ride/crash and then add a splash and a china splash. If the music permits, I add a china and another crash as well. I remember seeing Copeland using splash cymbals and loved the way they sounded on a Police video years ago. I think it was the video for Wrapped Around Your Finger; the one with all the candles. Hey you white boy there Go play that funky music "ok...what's it pay?" first smoke, then silence your very expensive rig dies so gracefully Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freelance Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 I'm a cymbal junkie (I own about 40 cymbals - many in the 30-50 year old range - some I rarely use anymore). To me, cymbals provide all the color. I prefer more cymbals and less drums. I normally use a standard 4 piece kit with hats, a ride, 2 crashes and a splsh (with chimes, cowbells, jam blocks, etc). When I use a bigger cymbal setup I may add 2 more splash cymbals, a china and maybe a 3rd crash and a 2nd ride. I've been a Zildjian guy for many years (all my 30-50 year old cymbals are Zildjian) however, I started useing Sabian about 4 years ago when I went to the factory (I worked in a music store, and got a free trip). I could buy cymbals at less than dealer cost - so I picked up several HH series (great sounding cymbals). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djarrett Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 Ironically, I like splashes and chinas more than I do crash cymbals. Has always been my tendency. I remember seeing Buddy Rich live in 82' and thinking how cutting that splash was. There was no mistaking that particular cymbal! Steward Copeland has been mentioned here and I have to say that he has always been a cymbal specialist in my opinion. (that is knowing which cymbal to play and where to play it!) ... And then there is Terry Bozzio! There is no "less is more" there. I think it is "more is more!" DJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freelance Posted July 10, 2003 Share Posted July 10, 2003 I've always liked Copeland's use of cymbals. He was a big influence on me (regarding splash cymblas in unique accents. I'm not a big Bozzio fan - but you are right about the "more is more" approach to his kit (and his playing) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jode Posted July 11, 2003 Share Posted July 11, 2003 How about Billy Martin of Medeski, Martin and Wood for "less is more"? One hi-hat, one cymbal. To quote John Madden, boom. If I took down all my cymbals but one, would God reward me by revealing the secrets of cymbal mastery? "I had to have something, and it wasn't there. I couldn't go down the street and buy it, so I built it." Les Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
offramp Posted July 11, 2003 Share Posted July 11, 2003 I, too, prefer more cymbals, and I'll stand my ground when I say there's no one more 'cymbal-minded' than Paul Wertico, at least during his tenure with Metheny. Woke me up to cymbal coloring. Jack DeJohnette, also, has always seemed to have a unique control of the cymbal etiquette (in my mind). I've upped my standards; now, up yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djarrett Posted July 11, 2003 Share Posted July 11, 2003 Jode, The secret with Billy, ... Is that you *never* would know that he only has one cymbal. He knows the spots to hit for which hit, so that it sounds like he has many cymbals! Great cymbal master. DJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzman Posted July 12, 2003 Author Share Posted July 12, 2003 That's the point DJ. Jazzman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jode Posted July 12, 2003 Share Posted July 12, 2003 Yup - any good cymbal actually has about four or five other cymbals hiding inside it. "I had to have something, and it wasn't there. I couldn't go down the street and buy it, so I built it." Les Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzman Posted July 30, 2003 Author Share Posted July 30, 2003 Here are all of the parts of a standard ride cymbal that I use. I use the bell, the edge, I hit the cymbal with the fat mid portion of the stick in Jazz(hold the stick normal but do not use the tip of the stick)across the cymbal, use the sticks backwards for different efects, between the bell and the cymbal. That is 5 ways for different effects, not counting laying a chain on it for the sizzle. Jazzman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 I learned to be a better drummer from playing lead guitar in a blues band. We had a great drummer who could pull off anything but I preferred him to just keep a rock steady beat that people could dance and groove to. He broke down to a 4pc kit with 3 cymbals, minimized the flash and we sounded better. This taught me to be a better drummer. Ringo had the right idea! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveC Posted August 1, 2003 Share Posted August 1, 2003 I'm a bass player, but like to look at the other forums from time to time. I like when I play with a drummer that has a grasp of cymbal color and use. More cymbals, less drums in my opinion. I think our drummer plays WAY better when we are on a small stage and he uses his "little" kit - bass, snare, 2 toms, hat, crash, ride (maybe 2), and maybe a splash. Show me your skills - not all your gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzman Posted August 2, 2003 Author Share Posted August 2, 2003 Steve....bass is my second instrument to drums. Well said my man! jazzman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tedly Nightshade Posted August 4, 2003 Share Posted August 4, 2003 Jode say: "I'm thinking about putting a bunch of stuff in the closet and making myself practice on a Ringo kit for a while. Four drums, three cymbals, and nowhere to hide. Now that's drumming like a MAN." ------------------------------------------------------------------------ So what does that make me? Two drums, three cymbals, cowbell, woodblock. I'm thinking- an orangutan. Something about big old orchestral bass drums with calfskin heads brings out the monkey in me... One of these times I'll pull out the 18" calfskin tom and know jes' what it's for... And you gotta love how Ringo rides on the crash cymbal in "Come Together". At least one or two of the cymbals should be crashable and rideable, and even if the cymbals not crashable, you need to be able to fake a quiet crash on it! I think a crucial dynamic is being able to give any element of the kit a rest, so when you come back in the audience gets to hear the sound fresh. Bass drum can be omitted here and there, or just taps employed, saving the whomp for a mindblower, hi hat can be used a few different ways, as a bell-like ride, open thrashy, tight chick, or omitted here and again. One of my rides/crashes is a sizzle, and of course it loses it's effect if you don't lay off it completely for a good while now and then. Woodblock can be used in lieu of snare, or in addition to a rim clack, the snares can be turned off for a while, etc. And changing sticks can pull a multitude of sounds from the same drum. Rosewood, ebony, brushes, clubs, rattan types, mallets, lots of different sounds other than the usual American hickory. How about a different stick in each hand? A fatty for the snare, a brilliant one for the ride, two totally different snare tones available at any time, and extra-textural roll possibilities. Like an oragutan, I tell you. Jode also says: "How about Billy Martin of Medeski, Martin and Wood for "less is more"? One hi-hat, one cymbal. To quote John Madden, boom. If I took down all my cymbals but one, would God reward me by revealing the secrets of cymbal mastery?" Seek, and ye shall find! A WOP BOP A LU BOP, A LOP BAM BOOM! "There is nothing I regret so much as my good behavior. What demon possessed me that I behaved so well?" -Henry David Thoreau Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzman Posted August 16, 2003 Author Share Posted August 16, 2003 I guess from what is being said that if we get good cymbals that have an excellent sound from the edge to the bell(Rides), we really have a good variety of sounds for a variety of music, other than special types used on a small kit. The mixing of the sticks is an excellent idea, one that I forgot about, but did use in the studio. That way you can bring out the brightness or change the brightness of the cymbal. That is why I sorta asked about why we need so many types to begin with. I myself have 10 of them around the set, but have two rides, one with a chain on it the other a plain Jane. Interesting folks. Jazzman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jode Posted August 17, 2003 Share Posted August 17, 2003 To quote myself: Originally posted by Jode: Any good cymbal actually has about four or five other cymbals hiding inside it.Well, I found another cymbal hiding in my ride lately. Just for giggles, I stuck two big loops of duct tape on either side of the bell to muffle it. It makes the most lovely dry jazz ride sound. Dirty, with just a little wash, and a thick stick sound. And I am down to a four piece with two crashes and a ride. My 16" Wuhan crash is a great little quiet ride, too, as it turns out. "I had to have something, and it wasn't there. I couldn't go down the street and buy it, so I built it." Les Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzman Posted August 18, 2003 Author Share Posted August 18, 2003 Very cool........I think I'll do that one too. Great idea! Jazzman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coyote Posted August 18, 2003 Share Posted August 18, 2003 I used to vary my whole kit depending on the gig, except for the ride & one crash. Both those were essential as they sounded great in every context. The drummer I'm currently working with has offered to buy that ride on many occasions. I always say NO WAY! (btw, the ride is an old Paiste 2002 18".) I don't neccessarily agree that "less is more". My drummer has a big double-bass set plus electronics, and he really knows how to use it all. He can play like Bruford & Palmer; he doesn't just crash around ala Tommy Lee or Keith Moon. I used to think I was Libertarian. Until I saw their platform; now I know I'm no more Libertarian than I am RepubliCrat or neoCON or Liberal or Socialist. This ain't no track meet; this is football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siberian Posted August 20, 2003 Share Posted August 20, 2003 What REALLY cracks me up about cymbals is when people buy them mail order, without even hearing them. I, for the life of me, cannot fathom why someone in their right mind would do that. With the exception of Paiste Signature Series, there is no consistancy from cymbal to cymbal within the same size or series. I could take 100 different Zildjian A 18" crashes and line them up side by side... and they will all sound different from each other. Some will sound good, and some will sound like complete ass. Why someone would just mail order a cymbal without even hearing it is beyond me. But as far as the question at hand... I like cymbals and have more than your average setup. But they all serve their purpose. For example I have three crashes... 16", 17", and 18". Could I get away with two? Sure. But I have my reasons for using three. First, the three crashes offer pretty significanty different sounds. I like to have the 16" and 17" out in front (split left and right) for most of the stuff I do. The 18" is more off to my far right side for that "big finish" type crash as well as for riding on (AKA- Alex Van Halen/ Keith Moon style). I also do a lot of cymbal fills where I'm hitting three or four cymbals in a row, very fast. When you hit a cymbal hard once and cause it to move, then try to hit it again right away while it is still violently swinging around from the first hit, you might hit it on the edge and crack it. So spreading out the subsequent hits to other cymbals prevents me from having to hit the same cymbal twice in a row and potentially crack or bend it. I also use two china's... a 16" and an 18". The 16 is far left, above my hihats, and the 18 is far right, above the ride. Why two? I use the 16 for quick accents and the 18 for more of a wash sound. I do a lot of alternating between hihat and china, and ride/china. (AKA- Neil Peart) I'll play the down beat on the hihat or ride, and the up beat on the china. It makes no sense from an ergonomic standpoint to have to reach all the way over from my left side to my right in between each quarter note to hit the china and hihat alternately. So I set up one china over my ride, and one over my hihat to make it easier to reach either one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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