Changing the key in a standard tune

[Vistajohn]

I use the "Real Book" for a lot of the music we play. I play with 2 guitar players (and drums). We have been putting together a song list and on more than a few of the songs, these guys play the song in a key other than the original key the song was written in. I think the person who wrote the tune had that paticular key in mind when the song was written.

To my thinking there are a few reasons to change key. One is if a singer sings the song in a certain key or if there are horn players who would perfer Bb instead of a key with sharps, but other than that, I'm good with that original key. Does it matter to any of you jazz guys that someone wants to change the key of a song? Supposedly the key was changed to make it easier to play certain parts of the song or, that just happened to be the key they had the song in and really don't see changing from "C" to "Ab". Thoughts?

[PhilMan99]

I wouldn't know Jazz from Taz, but with music in general, isn't it common to transpose the piece to the range that the vocalist is comfortable with?

[Ross Brown]

When we are adding new songs, I often find recorded versions of songs by different artists in different keys. We often must first decide on the key before we start working on a song at rehearsal. If it sounds bad, don't play it in that key, otherwise...

 

Just my thoughts.

[Ross Brown]

Oh yea... I don't know Jazz from Taz either. Maybe the answer is different in the Jazz world, but I doubt it.

[SteveC]

This is a hot issue for me. We go through this with the pop/rock band I'm in. I hate transposing - for any reason really. I don't have perfect pitch or anything, but I can hear the difference and it does bother me when things are in the wrong key. Some songs more than others. They just don't sound right. There's a reason tunes are written in the key they are.

 

My students can tell a difference as well. We have a piece of music in the folder for my high school orchestra that is in both Eb and D - D being an easier key to play in for strings. They wanted to play the D major version as that's easier. I told them that it will sound better in Eb. We played both versions and they decided that, yes, the Eb version had a certain sound that worked better for that piece of music. It's only a half step, but it makes a huge difference.

 

If the vocalist can't sing it in the "right" key than don't do that tune. There's lots of songs out there - plenty of them should be in your vocalists range. Horns should be able to play in any key - just like me - so suck it up and learn to play your instrument.

 

Happy Friday!

[Big Daddy from Motown]

Any key no problem, that's what you get paid to do.

 

I've been playing for 40+ years and you always do the song in the key thye singer feels comfortable with.

[Paul K]

I'm OK with playing jazz tunes in about any key, I just much prefer to be warned about variations before the gig. I can transpose on the fly, but not well enough to make the gig smooth and fun; it makes the gig a chore and a headache instead. THere are certain over-played jazz tunes that I don't like to transpose, but that's mostly with tunes I know well enough to forgo the charts altogether.

 

Expanding on SteveC's thoughts on what key works for a song: To me it depends on where the important notes fall. For example, if the tune has a prominant pedal note, as a bass player I'd rather have that pedal be on an E than an Eb (no low B string on my basses!) Other instruments have their own idiocyncracies and range limitations that would make certain keys better than others. Your two guitars and drums personel makes that a bit easier to deal with, as us fretted folks are less particular than either singers or horn players. But if you keep it in the Real Book keys, you will be more succesful in having horn players sit in on tunes/sets/gigs, which can be a mighty treat for players and audience alike.

 

Question SteveC: Is that orchestra piece the same arrangement in two different keys, or two different arrangements in two different keys?

[The Geoff]

You have to play the song in the singer's key.

 

That's assuming the singer knows what key he/she sings best in..........

 

 

G.

[SteveC]

Originally posted by Paul K:

Question SteveC: Is that orchestra piece the same arrangement in two different keys, or two different arrangements in two different keys?

It's the arrangement in both keys - one on each side of the paper.

 

I guess my transposing comments are more applicable - to me - in pop/rock/vocal tunes. I don't think it makes as much difference in instrumental jazz tunes. Maybe that makes no sense, but that's how I feel.

 

I also think it's different if it's your usual band or if you are a hired gun. Obviously, if you are hired to play a gig for someone, you will do what they want. I think in my own bands, I'd like to have more say.

[Vistajohn]

I agree, there is a difference in playing a song in "D" or "Eb". It sounds different and also feels different playing it.

This is not a "hired gun" situation, just 4 guys playing in an Italian Resturant, for Lasagna no less! But my point is if you learn a song in a certain key, you have a challange on you hands if you find your self among players who are "perfectonists" (they are out there).

As far as the singer playing in a certain key, I do play with a singer who "knows" what key she likes and pretty much insists on it if we can do it. Works for me, but it does change the comfort level at times.

[EddiePlaysBass]

Originally posted by Vistajohn:

This is not a "hired gun" situation, just 4 guys playing in an Italian Restaurant, for Lasagna no less!

That, sir, is my dream job. And I'm not being ironic here.

[DJR_Bos]

For standards, Real Book stuff, keys change. Thats the name of the game. And I do mean game. Lots of players have favorite keys and its follow the leader. Literally.

 

Ive hear, lived a few, more stories about the seasoned jazz cats looking first for a tune you dont know. If that fails a key you cant play it in.

 

Thats just jazz or at least part of the be-bop push the envelope vibe.

 

Do I agree with THAT? The jurys out. But the keys for standards will change and as players we should be ready for that. YknowYou dont learn the line you learn to walk. Deal with changes.

 

On the pop/rock thing its a little different. Especially guitar/riff based stuff. That (often) takes advantage of certain things intrinsic to the instrument. Open strings, harmonics and such. That can sound God Awful if moved around. Not will but can.

 

My two cents. Worth somewhat less.

[jlrush]

by Steve C:

 

This is a hot issue for me. We go through this with the pop/rock band I'm in. I hate transposing - for any reason really. I don't have perfect pitch or anything, but I can hear the difference and it does bother me when things are in the wrong key. Some songs more than others. They just don't sound right. There's a reason tunes are written in the key they are.

 

+1. I feel the same way, that if at all possible it's best to play a song in it's original key. By their nature some songs almost require it.

 

But on the other hand, you don't want the vocalist straining to reach certain pitches either, so sometimes you have to compromise. I don't think you should trash a song just because a singer does better in another key. Only if the song doesn't sound right in that other key.

[TimR]

Yep, we come across this all the time. We have found that songs written on guitar, usually in C,E,A,D or G are best kept transposed into those keys. ie if C is too low shift it to E etc.

Songs written to suit brass, Eb Bb Ab etc are also best kept transposed to those keys.

The theory behind this has been covered on this forum, (equal temprament) but surfice it to say that a fifth on a piano is not a perfect fifth, all the note frequencies are slightly adjusted so that all the notes fit in a scale.

 

As you have found the human ear can tell the difference.

[tnb]

Whether or not the song "sounds better in xxx key" transposing is a required skill. Initially it will take you out of your comfort zone, but like anything else, the more you do it, the easier it gets.

 

I know singers get away with "I can't sing it in that key" but I am positive that if I told my bandleader that I can't play a certain song in a certain key I WOULD BE LAUGHED OFF THE BANDSTAND. When the laughing ceased and the night was over, I would be fired.

[Steve Force]

Learning (memorizing) the "Circle of Fifths" helps in transposing keys, because it takes a lot of the work out of figuring out which notes are in "context" (scale).

[jeremy c]

Key, schmee.

 

Singers, especially female singers, will nearly always change the key of standards. They should do this, nearly all the songs are written in men's keys.

 

A jazz player is expected to be able to change keys without a lot of trouble.

 

Why an instrumentalist would want to change the key is a little beyond me. The keys in the real book are the "normal keys" that people play the tunes in. If a guitarist or horn player can't play the songs in those keys, he has no business playing them with other people.

[Bob Gollihur]

Originally posted by Big Daddy from Motown:

Any key no problem, that's what you get paid to do.

 

I've been playing for 40+ years and you always do the song in the key thye singer feels comfortable with.

+1

 

With all due respect, the player/singer leading the tune (vocal or lead instrument) can call any key -- as far as I am concerned, I'm the bass player (accept your supporting role) and I'll play it in any damn key they name, even drop it a couple steps after the first verse when the vocalist finds it a little too tall for that early in the night or if they have a cold. It may not be the key I'm comfortable with, the one in which I've played it the last 723 times, and I may have to pay attention, I may throw a few clams in the mix, and I may not be able to go on Automatic Pilot, but that's tough.

 

Before I lost my voice, when I used to sing, I got to call the key. When you do the lead, you should get that perk. And don't get hung up on the key in a Fake Book-- unless it's a singer-songwriter tune, who do you think called the key when it was recorded-- the singer or the songwriter?

 

"Sorry, Mr. Sinatra, but I didn't write it to be performed in Bb."

 

Bang!! Thud.

 

Here's some Tough Love: Shut up and play the tune.

[Paul K]

Well of course the pros can transpose on the fly, are expected to transpose on the fly, and aren't pros for long if they can't transpose on the fly. Hell....fake book? Pros don't need no stinkin' fake book. And good for you; you earned it through dilligent study. But what's us semi-pros supposed to do? Play chromatic? Stay home and watch T.V.? It's not an all-or-nothing deal. At the not-triple-A gigs I play, I'd rather work with my other semi-pro brothers and sisters than against them 'cause I and they do this music thing for fun.

 

But to be positive, what's helped me to get better at transposing on the fly is to change Band-in-a-Box to Nashville notation. That way instead of thinking in terms of C,D,E, I'm thinking in terms of I, II, III (and II-V's,and III-VI's, etc.) Over the years it's also helped in terms of how I think of a chart. It's the way we probably all should have been taught to play originaly. But until I quit my day job and can devote 40 hours a week to music(uh...not gonna happen 'cause I like my day job...), I'm still gonna screw up "Somewhere Over The Rainbow" when the singer needs it down a minor third.

[Steve Force]

And your point is...

[jcadmus]

Did someone say "lasagna"?

[Max Valentino]

"Why an instrumentalist would want to change the key is a little beyond me. The keys in the real book are the "normal keys" that people play the tunes in. If a guitarist or horn player can't play the songs in those keys, he has no business playing them with other people."

 

Thank you, Jeremy. Finally someone came and and said it. Many people can play an instrument (and this being a bass specific forum, I will put this in the relation of "bass")...but not so many can play music. If you cannot play any tune in any key, and if you cannot transpose "on the fly" (c'mon guys, this is NOT that difficult..it's all just about intervals, and you should have been counting half steps when you learned your scales!) then you should learn to do so NOW! This is a basic skill of good musicianship that everyone sghould have facility with.

 

With the band I regularly play with, we frequently have "guests" (often times these are quite famous big name guests...) and they can call nearly any tune in the world (and have...we have done Ellington and Gershwin as well as Hank Williams and Merle Haggard!) and one of the band members will know it, be able to relate the progression (vis a vis an intervalic "number system") to the others and we can then play it in any key (and even modulate keys thru the tune!).

 

When you learn a tune, just as when learn and practice scales and arpeggios, learn it in all keys. It is great practice (and makes future transpostions so much easier), as well as giving some insight as to how certain keys "color" a tune...which is the real deciding factor of why a composer (at least in the classical idiom) chooses a certain key for piece).

 

Transpostion is handy to help out vocalist (a singer is always a little fuller and more emotive...and thus more "leading" when at the top of his/her range...as well as aiding the other instruments (if you are playing in a horn band, you should learn to play a lot of things in Bb, Eb and F..those are keys which horns really "like" (both the players and the instruments themselves).

 

Max

[SteveC]

I'm not saying it's not a skill to have, or that it's not someting that you can/should do when appropriate. I just think that there are some tunes that loose something when done in a key other than the one in which you are used to hearing it done.

[TimR]

Originally posted by Max Valentino:

...When you learn a tune, just as when learn and practice scales and arpeggios, learn it in all keys. It is great practice (and makes future transpostions so much easier), as well as giving some insight as to how certain keys "color" a tune...which is the real deciding factor of why a composer (at least in the classical idiom) chooses a certain key for piece).

...

Max

+1

[Bottomgottem]

Originally posted by Paul K:

But what's us semi-pros supposed to do? Play chromatic? Stay home and watch T.V.?

Strive to improve your abilities.

 

If your bass playing is exactly where you want it to be, then great. Don't take triple-A or major league gigs.

 

I've taken a gig beyond my musical reach in the past and had my tail soundly spanked. It made me mad as hell. But my anger was appropriately aimed at myself, not at the other players who could handle the gig. The experience served me well by showing me where my deficiencies lay. So I went to the woodshed and got better.

 

Jeremy, Bob, and Max are correct. Sometimes you have to accommodate vocal ranges, instrumentation, or other factors. Your capacity for having fun will increase with your abilities.

[Vistajohn]

Some very interesting comments, I am glad that the topic has generated this kind response. You can see the division between the "real" musicians and the "wana be" musicians. I have always believed there are two kinds of musicians, those who have a God given talent and those of us who have to work with what gift we have to make it happen.

That being said, it dosen't take a genius to figue out where I stand in that division. Interestly enough, I had a great gig this weekend, private party, music was great, mostly standards, people loved it. Had a singer sit in on a few (very talented singer) and of course "what key do you play it in" was asked.

I am going to work at playing songs in different keys.

I have loads of respect for the thoughts and opinions suggested here and I am definity on the road to becoming a better musician.

[Vistajohn]

I beg you indulgence by clarifying my comment about "those with God given talent and those of us who have to work with what gifts we have".

What I mean by that comment is there are "great musicians". The Musicians musician. I might suppose Max and Jeremy or Bob are those kinds of musician. (You could be!) When I watch you guys play I'm amazed at the talent and ability in your playing, it is almost magical at times the sounds that you create with your instrument. And it certainly dosen't have to be Jazz. I'm talking Rock, Country, Blues, Bluegrass. Great players. But there are also those of us who are the working mans musician. We play in Italian Resturants for Lasagena. What ever label you want to apply to "us" we are still entertainers. We entertain. Just on a smaller scale. I know its been said on this forum how the average person wouldn't know what kind sound you are getting from a paticular amp or paticular effect you happen to be using, He just knows what sounds good to him and what dosent. I can't tell you how many times I thought I sounded like shit that night and someone would comes up and say' "hey you sounded great!". Uuh?

Another musician would probably know but I don't paticularly play for you guys, in fact you guys make me a little nervous. Rather I try and entertain as best I can with the ability I have. And I don't think I'm alone. But, I bow to those of you who are the great musicians, you are the inspiration for us and a pleasure to watch and listen. Now, back to practicing those key changes.

[Dave Brown]

Hardest thing I ever did in music?

 

I was playing in a Symphonic Wind ensemble in college (for only one concert, thankfully!) The conductor asked us to take a chart written in A and transpose in to Bb. For a concert. I'm not talking about a chord chart. These were written notes.

 

I have to transpose chord charts from time to time. More often, we'll start a song in one key and they'll indicate: "go to F" and we'll jump key, including a pivot chord.

 

One thing you can try when this happens is to put your hand in position to play, then pretend the Eb you are playing is an F; you can still think in Eb. This works in an emergency, but don't think too hard or shift too much.

 

When I do this, though, I generally think in chord function. "Here's the dominant, here's the six chord." It is a mental challenge, though. I wouldn't say I was perfect at it. And don't throw me a jazz tune using a lot of non-diatonic chords. I would feel really insecure.

[...]

Jeremy and Max dropped the science. Hopefully the audience was listening.

 

Originally posted by Dave Brown:

I was playing in a Symphonic Wind ensemble in college (for only one concert, thankfully!) The conductor asked us to take a chart written in A and transpose in to Bb. For a concert. I'm not talking about a chord chart. These were written notes.

Try playing a non-C instrument for a while and you get used to doing this. A half step isn't so bad. Playing trumpet for so long I got handed a lot of pieces in C and had to move it a step on the fly. The alto sax players were the ones I felt really bad for.

[TimR]

One thing not to overlook is that when playing with professional singers they will have already practiced their tune (probably with a rehearsal pianist) and decided what sounds best and fits their range. It can take a while to test out different tunes in different keys. The rest of the musicians won't see that, all they will see is someone turn up and say 'We're going to do it in that key'.

 

As an amatuer musician in a band its very frustrating work doing this, because unless youre really organised and the vocalist and guitarist/keyboard get together first you usually end up doing this with the whole band present. I've seen some very annoyed drummers...