Guitarist thinking of trying bass

[Jeep5ter]

Hello, new to the forum. I am a longtime guitarist (> 25yrs), and am thinking of trying out the bass. In guitars, I favor the Les Paul and Hamer (Explorer copy) feel. I think the sound I want to attain is most likely to come from a Rickenbacker 4003 (Geddy Lee, Mike Rutherford, Squire, etc.), and have heard that this is most like a guitar feel. Questions:

1. is it stupid to attempt to teach myself bass?

2. am I on the right track to get a Ric?

3. I have a Fender twin reverb tube amp (40W) - assuming I don't plan to play the bass on stage, only at the house, can I get away with using my guitar amp to play bass through?

[Phil W]

1. No, I did it for 20 years fine, it's slow though - you can get more from a good lesson than months of self-study. I would recommend lessons.

2. Don't know, others will comment.

3. Should be fine for home, I guess, but sometimes having a good bass sound at home helps you to practise.

 

Don't forget though that bass is a completely different approach to music, function and mentality to guitar. Sorry if you already know that, you probably do. For this reason I prefer a very different feel on bass to on guitar, I play each very differently (and guitar very badly! )

[Jeep5ter]

Thanks for the response. Yes, I probably won't be doing Eddy Van Halen pull offs on a bass, but the music I am enjoying nowdays (Spock's Beard, IQ, etc) I find myself ignoring the guitar and following the bass, which is why I want to try.

[lug]

1. - no

2. - yes

3. - Most guitar speakers aren't designed to handle bass frequencies. If you can get a cheap bass speaker cab and run the output of the head to it instead of guitar speakers, it will do fine for practice. (if you keep the volume down, you can probably use it as is)

[picker]

1. no.

2. Ric necks all have the same width all the way down, which I don't like. I have played a few 4003s here and there, and I thought they were okay, but not really what I was looking for. If I were you though, I'd go for a Precision Bass, Fender or a copy, for my first bass. One pickup is easy to deal with, so you don't have to work at finding a good sound. Usually, even the copies sound pretty good. I believe it's that split pickup. You could slap it on a hunk of wood with a length of baling wire and it would still sound good. Others will disagree, but that's my take.

3. If you do, use the normal channel(non-reverb/tremolo), and keep the vloume down, mostly to save your speakers. People have played bass through Dual Showman amps for a long time, and a Twin Reverb is just a Dual Showman Reverb head in a combo case with 2 12" speakers. If you got a bass cabinet of some sort, you could push it with the Twin with no problem, or so I am told.

[Jeep5ter]

Thanks for the inputs - I guess if I am going to put a grand into a bass, I might as well get the speakers to hear it right.

[Mudcat]

Originally posted by Picker:

...2. Ric necks all have the same width all the way down, which I don't like. I have played a few 4003s here and there, and I thought they were okay, but not really what I was looking for. If I were you though, I'd go for a Precision Bass, Fender or a copy, for my first bass. One pickup is easy to deal with, so you don't have to work at finding a good sound. Usually, even the copies sound pretty good. I believe it's that split pickup. You could slap it on a hunk of wood with a length of baling wire and it would still sound good. Others will disagree, but that's my take...

I'm one of those who disagree (sorry Picker ).

 

As a guitarist who started playing bass as a second instrument years ago, I am still frustrated because I do not own a Rickenbacker (purely because of their expense). Don't get me wrong, I love my beat up Fender, but it basically does two sounds and that's it. A Rickenbacker is much more flexible than most people give it credit for, and if you are going for the "classic" Ric sound of the bassists you listed, you will only get it out of a Rickenbacker. It can also approximate a Fender tone if you tweak the tone and volume controls correctly. You'll never get a Fender to pull off the Ric tone though.

 

I recommend that you check out both the 4001 and 4003 models. They sound basically the same, but the necks are quite different. I love the 4001 and loathe the 4003. Just my opinion, your mileage may vary.

[Jeep5ter]

Mudcat, can you elaborate on the different necks of the 4001 vs 4003? I didn't think 4001s were even available anymore, outside of used (and maybe fake) on ebay.

[Mudcat]

Originally posted by Jeep5ter:

Mudcat, can you elaborate on the different necks of the 4001 vs 4003? I didn't think 4001s were even available anymore, outside of used (and maybe fake) on ebay.

The 4001 was discontinued in the early 80s, however they do still make the 4001C64 and 4001C64S reissue models which are based on McCartney's Ric (without his endorsement). I'll speak about those below.

 

The 4001 has a VERY slim neck, which I really like (odd because I prefer chunky guitar necks like on my Gretsch). The 4003 was designed with a slightly bulkier neck to accomodate roundwound strings without warping (although many bassists, including Chris Squire, use roundwounds on their 4001s without any problem). It's not the size of the neck I dislike so much as the shape. The sides of the neck taper down in a curve but then the neck flattens out. To me it feels very strange. Others do like it, obviously, because they still sell as many 4003s as they can make.

 

The 4001C64 reissue model is based on the 1964 4001 model. I assume it has the slimmer neck of later 4001s but I have never played one myself. There are many cosmetic differences from the 4001 & 4003 but the biggest functional difference is the inclusion of vintage design pick-ups instead of the high-gain pick-ups developed in the 70s. This means the rear pick-up is a horse-shoe model and the pick-up cover is integral to the pick-up itself. You can't remove it, so you have to play around it. You may not care for that limitation and I wouldn't blame you.

 

The 4001C64S is based on McCartney's 4001 as it ended up after he sanded the paint (and quite a bit of wood) off of it in the late sixties. I also believe the horseshoe pick-up is replaced by a standard high gain pick-up as was done by McCartney around 1970.

 

You can probably find a used 4001 somewhere and see how the playability compares to the 4003. Your preference may be different than mine.

[Jeep5ter]

OK, thanks. I'll do some looking around, before I shell out for the 4003.

[Feel_Grooves1]

If you use the tube amp after 2 days it will f up the amp

[lug]

Originally posted by Feel_Grooves1:

If you use the tube amp after 2 days it will fuck up the amp

It "could" damage the speakers, but shouldn't have any ill effects on the amplifier itself.

[Eric VB]

I wasn't able to get a Squire or Lee (Rickenbacker) sound out of a Fender (through an all-transister Peavey ). When I started upgrading my gear I got what I feel was good advice from a local sales guy (!) that steered me towards a Ric (even though he wasn't a Ric dealer). I've been mostly happy with my 4003 since I bought it. (I still GAS for other basses but my Ric will probably remain my #1 axe.)

 

Of course Geddy now has his one-of-a-kind Fender Jazz; the signature models are pretty good but they'll never be exactly the same. (Geddy won't let anyone take his apart.) Between a Jazz and Precision I prefer a Jazz, having played both previously.

 

Some don't care for the 4003's passive p'ups, but I've never owned an active bass so it's no big deal to me.

 

The 4003 has a slightly shorter scale (33-1/4") than most basses, and that may be one reason why someone suggested it is "most like a guitar". (A Gibson Les Paul being 24-3/4" scale length.) There are 3/4-size basses, too, like the Fender Mustang with a 30" scale length, but if you're going to play a bass you may as well start on a full size.

 

The shorter scale and maple wood lend to a brighter sounding bass, especially with round wound strings. IMO this is what allows a Ric to cut through the mix better than a P bass with flats which tends to settle under the mix instead. Some counter that other brands provide more "punch", particularly active basses. (James Jamerson's thumping P bass w/flats sound was more forward in the MoTown mixes because the rest of the band -- expecially the guitars -- gave him enough sonic space to work with. But just about any bass is going to lose to a 7- or 8-string guitar with heavy distortion due to frequency masking.)

 

Just like a guitar, everything in the signal chain is going to color the tone. With a passive bass like a 4003, that's probably even more true because you have to rely on a preamp. Look around for what Squire and Lee used on their sites. (I can't remember off hand.) You probably won't be thrilled with running your Twin at low levels, but it will be better than nothing for practicing.

 

I haven't had a chance to play a 4001 yet for comparison.

 

On the guitar side of things I too have a Les Paul (copy).

 

As far as teaching yourself, you may want some initial lessons just to put yourself on the right path. If you develop poor technique early it'll take you that much longer to "unlearn" and learn the right way later. Especially true if your guitar technique has your fretting thumb hanging over the neck!

 

You may want to try a few basses at your local stores, too. Take along a bass playing buddy (you may find one here if you don't already have one) for more insight. You may want to try a comparably priced Fender (MIA) Jazz and Music Man StingRay (you may like the HH version in particular), as well as a Yamaha TRB1004. (Give the less expensive MIM Fenders and OLPs [MM copy] a try, too, as well as the Yamaha BB series if you can.) Try others, too, as only you will know what you're looking for.

[dcr]

You're not necessarily foolish to teach yourself. It depends on how good a teacher you are...if you can read music, including the bass clef, you should be OK. The main thing is that bass is a different way of thinking & hearing. It's also a different technique. You wouldn't go far wrong to take a few lessons with a good teacher to get you pointed the right way. Get a copy of "What Duck Dunn" & "Standing in the Shadows of Motown" to get a sense of bass line building; transcribe a bunch of McCartney.

 

I play a Ric 4003 & it's an awesome bass. String it with steel roundwounds, put all the knobs up & back off the neck pickup volume just a tad until you hear it go "rrrrrRRRRRR." That said, I also have a Fender Jazz bass (Geddy Lee model, actually), and the same recipe works on it, too. Dave Meros (Spock's Beard) uses the Fender Jazz extensively for the "smooth" stuff, but Geddy Lee recorded most of the stuff that people have mistaken for a Ric with his Jazz bass. (It has a LOT to do with strings, technique, & EQ. You're not going to plug in a Ric & sound like Squire. After all, McCartney played the same bass & sounded totally different!) Like Mudcat said, each is very versatile. Each has a wonderful neck, but they're very different necks. I like both, but a lot of people used to the Fender neck find the Ric neck odd at first. If you favor a Les Paul, that set-neck feel you're used to might actually incline you towards the Ric (through-neck). Definitely try a lot of stuff out first.

 

On the amp, I'd say get a bass amp. It'll be voiced right & built to handle bass frequencies without rattling apart. Plus, I hear that Musicians Friend has an Eden bass practice amp for $134. And of course for live playing you'll need a lot of watts, plus the right kinds of drivers, with bass.

[Jeep5ter]

Thanks all for the words of wisdom. Guess I'd better get over to the music shop this weekend and do some playing around.

[Jode]

If you prefer a more Gibson-like feel in your guitars, buy a Gibson bass! The Epiphone copies of the EB3, Thunderbird, Jack Casady sig, etc. are excellent instruments that won't break the bank, and they play essentially like overgrown Les Pauls. Tone-wise, I was always able to get a great nasal Rick-like tone out of the bridge pickup on my '72 EB3, although I can't speak for the 'Bird or Casady models. The shorter scale (30.5") on the EB and the Casady model may be more comfortable, as well.

 

Also, I wouldn't even risk plugging a bass into a Twin Reverb, if I were fortunate enough to own one. With cheapo practice amps starting around fifty bones, there's no reason to.