Songwriting and poetry

[AUSSIEKEYS]

Hi Songwriters

as Im trying to get people interested in this part of the forum [i guess so Ive got someone to talk/share with] Im trying to suck people into talking about thier art...so forgive me if I try to include you.

 

Was talking to Mr Pollack on another thread when he mentioned poetry and songwriting.

As this is something that has perplexed me somewhat...in that i tend to keep my writings in both spheres separate.

 

do you find that poetry and your songwriting are linked

 

for instance I write a lot of songs...and find them so easy now to do...but ive written only few poems and find really that I consider poetry and songwriting for me to be separate.

 

ie.I wrote one poem about a dead body I found as a teenager at a car accident..while trying to get to the distressed passengers I ran past what at first I thought was just a pile of rags but turned ouit to be a body of a lady.....this memory had stayed in my mind for years ...never a nitemare but always there in the background...the only way to lessen the impact of this bizzare event in my life was to write a poem...it took the form of free verse because the event to me was not soothing..

and after writing that poem the memory was easier to handle.

 

a few years ago i knew this must become one of my songs...a sombre yet quirky song[ahh my beloved quirky]...but there was no way my poem could be used as any template for the song ..needless to say the song was completely different in style to the poem..but that was great

 

I use this as an example of how I find poetry not linked directly to my songwriting...as a poet I aM MORE INCLINED TO use FREE VERSE BUT AS A songwriter I'm totally into ryhme..obviously lol

 

why do I not treat poetry and songwriting the same...and does it matter...probably not.

I find poems are not music fodder as they perhaps end up too much like a limrick [spelling?]

 

are you interested enough or game enough to tell your slant on poetry and songwriting...this dare is open to any other participants in this room.

 

By god ill get some interest in songwriting...

i think I find talking about songwriting far more inspiring than talking about keyboards/..lol although ive been enjoying the keyboard corner for a lomg while...songwriting is my passion...keyboards are my tool..

 

how do you relate poetry to your songwriting if at all..or do you find songwriting is an extension of your poetry.

[Eric VB]

Great post, AK!

 

Before jumping right in on your question, I want to preface my answer a bit.

 

My language skills or horrible. In school the first poor mark I ever received was in 8th grade English (age 13). It only got worse for me after that.

 

I struggled through the required 4 years (out of 4) of English in high school, half composition and half literature. I had good teachers -- teachers I admired -- but they were not motivation enough to overcome my bad skills and the bad attitude towards language it fostered.

 

In college I had to retake the last term of the required one year course in English ... twice! Also, it was in college that I was finally required to take a year of a foreign language. I actually didn't do too badly studying German.

 

I've heard that English is one of the hardest languages to learn. It seems like there are more exceptions than rules, and the rules themselves aren't always straight-forward. Still, that wasn't the part that gave me trouble. Amazingly I was in my grade school's spelling bee, but as I grew older my spelling became worse. (Well, not that I forgot how to spell words, but more likely I didn't learn the spelling of new words entering my vocabulary.) Of the "rules" end of things, spelling is still my nemesis.

 

No, I was one of those kids that would over analyze things while writing a paper. I couldn't just get my idea on the page; it had to have every word spelled correctly, use vocabulary I had just learned, have proper grammar, perhaps use literary devices (e.g. alliteration), and varied sentence structure. By the time I was satisfied that I was writing correctly and in an interesting manner I would lose my train of thought. So I was probably one of the reasons why American schools decided to forego teaching kids the rules (and why they are such terrible spellers).

 

As you can imagine, things only became more difficult for me when it came to poetry. In addition to all the regular rules of English, now I was faced with even more restrictions to worry about, like rhyme and meter. Also I'm quite dense when it comes to picking up things like metaphor and allegory. It's hard for me to see beyond a literal interpretation.

 

I like the concept of poetry as a vehicle for artistically expressing oneself. I enjoyed trying to write poetry, but was not very good at it. Perhaps I will try again someday.

 

Originally for me lyrics were something I avoided. I was more than happy to let someone else in the band write them and sing them. I was an instrumentalist and all I cared about was the music.

 

I've finally gotten to that age where I have a lot of stories about my life experiences ... perhaps too many. There are things I feel passionate about. There are things that I notice about the people around me that I find interesting. There are words and phrases that catch my fancy, and set themselves to music in my head.

 

In short, I'm finding that the more I work at it, the more easily I can express myself in lyrics and song.

 

But my lyrics are not poetry. Sure, I use a lot of rhyme like everybody else, but there is no poetic meter. Instead I try to match the natural rhythm of the spoken lyrics to the rhythm of the music.

 

This concept was hard to convey to poets that fancied themselves songwriters on another forum. They carefully counted syllables to get their meter straight, but their "lyrics" didn't flow with a rhythm. Another stumbling block I noticed was that the poets had no concept of subdividing. Instead of subdividing a beat to land the accent on the proper syllables, the meter was strictly adhered to and lead to awkward emphases.

 

Anyway, back to me (and the question at hand). As I don't write poetry, I have nothing to compare to my lyrical writings. So I suppose you could say that the two are not linked for me.

 

As another aside, I have a friend that writes wonderful lyrics in free verse. Sometimes I try to write this way but rhymes still manage to creep in. Usually the closest I come to avoiding rhyming couplets is to either use an abab or acbc rhyme scheme. (In the latter case you could argue that it's still a couplet, just spread out across multiple lines.)

[Eric VB]

I just wanted to add something.

 

One thing that has helped my language skills improve is communicating with others on these (and other) forums. There's something about putting your thoughts down in text that is more beneficial than just speaking. Of course an oral conversation has a lot of strong points that are lacking in online forum chatter. For me, though, typing my thoughts down (and reading them over before clicking Add Reply ) has really helped.

[nursers]

I'm a big poetry fan, have even set up a poetry information portal in the past month, mostly for school students but also for lovers of poetry. There's also a discussion forum - click on the Forum button on the site - would love some new members to kick off discussion

 

The Poetry Resource

 

[AUSSIEKEYS]

no ric... I must say your post is great

 

sorry for the delay in replying as Ive just been up the coast to the finals of a singing competition...didnt win but it was my first singing competition without playing my piano...so it was interesting and it was to fulfil a date with a lovely lady [yes this was the real reason for entering..tee hee] I had previously met when she pushed me into the competition.

 

Unfortunately my motor in my car was dead and what was to be a 2 hour drive was a 5 hour train trip each way...but I am back now and excited at your reply.But a little tired so i hope my ramblings tonight are coherrant

 

 

RIC said

........"But my lyrics are not poetry. Sure, I use a lot of rhyme like everybody else, but there is no poetic meter. Instead I try to match the natural rhythm of the spoken lyrics to the rhythm of the music.

 

This concept was hard to convey to poets that fancied themselves songwriters on another forum. They carefully counted syllables to get their meter straight, but their "lyrics" didn't flow with a rhythm. Another stumbling block I noticed was that the poets had no concept of subdividing. Instead of subdividing a beat to land the accent on the proper syllables, the meter was strictly adhered to and lead to awkward emphases."

 

 

ric this actually helps me understand why I find that poetry does not link to my songwriting...

 

as i have never spoken on this subject to poets..

I only know one professional poet and he does not write songs.In fact he went from a contemporie poet..[which I loved his work]...to a fairly well known bush poet[his bush poetry is very good but i very much miss his original style..a lot of free verse..and off the wall ideas that eminated from his tough life..]

well he's gotta make a living and a name.

 

 

In fact a lot of poetry [to me] smacks of amatuerish attempts.

Always trying to rhyme too carefully and it usually sounds corny and often with that stereotypical ryhtym...a problem often associated with our Australian bush poetry.And every one who considers themself somewhat of a poet seems to be content/drawn to this bush poetry bent...alas.

 

Fortunately the difference between an amatuer and a professional is easy to see as attested to by my friend.

 

this indeed here is our "only" known/recognised poetry by the general public and hence the most often heard by the general public...including myself...perhaps poetry for the aussie masses...

hence my own preference for free verse or a blend of free verse and rhyme

 

so ric your comments help me with my understanding of the relationship I have with these two arts.

It also explains why

 

I'll cut my reply short as its 12 am here after a long trip home.[and perhaps im not making much sense.And the screens swimming.ha]

Hoping to hear from others too

[David R]

I'm neither a poet nor a lyricist, but lately I have taken to using poetry as a catalyst for my pieces. Some poems just suggest being set, and others do not. The late composer Eric Stokes put it this way:

Words can be a wonderful partner to the musical imagination. [...] The sounds of words can be wonderful stimuli to my melodic and rhythmic interests [...] However, I do believe that some texts are inherently so musical that marrying them to musical settings takes away from them.

David

[pollock]

I absolutly find my poetry & music linked. I write songs music first sometimes, and also poetry first sometimes- this is proof. I will have a poem, and then write the music to fit the words the best I can.

 

I love poetry, I love music. They definitly belong together. It hit me when RicBassGuy said "nobody writes songs like that anymore", which is very true in popular music these days

 

Take "Kathy's Song" - a great work of paul simon

(both a folk and a pop song, it was played on pop radio)

 

the final line "There but for the grace of you go I"

 

and believe me when I say NOBODY writes like that anymore. Of course NOBODY is a hyperbole, there are very few, but barely any in popular music.

 

I just think lyrics seem so dumbed-down these days. ANd being in school presently, I can say they aren't teaching students poetry correctly. THey use too many restrictions on their assignments.

 

Originally posted by David R:

I'm neither a poet nor a lyricist

- Bob Dylan once said "A poet is anyone who wouldn't call himself a poet"

 

Jesse

[AUSSIEKEYS]

hi mr pollack....jessie

 

yes I see where your coming from....and that is interesting cause for me it usually is different

 

I tend to write the words and music at the same time.This to me is my natural songwriting mode.

 

This perhaps is why my songs are falling in place so easily now.And surprisingly this way for me allows me to experiment with many varied chord structures cause somehow I tend to find my music just jumps in any direction it needs too when writing this way.Unexpected chord changes...somehow are linked to the vocals I write.

well enough for me to feel comfortable that Im not using a too overused structure.I have had positive comments on the little surprises in the direction of the music..

 

I wonder if I were to write the music first that my music would follow more conventional...perhaps expected structures.

 

A favourite Ive just discovered is to turn on the recorder and just start playing anything [rogue chords] and singing to it [anything that comes into my head] and surprisingly it works.

 

I then go back to the recording...refine the chords and words a bit...and there you have it a rather free and off the wall song.

 

as jessie has done I have written words first or music but I find that it is not my favoured way of writing.And I have written music to others words...well that is fairly easy....and have written words to others music..again not difficult....

but I was intuned to that persons style as she had just joined me as a songwriting partner but alas returned to America because she was home sick.

 

Damn shame as we both had results within a day of recieiving each others music.[we'd write music for each other and let the other write the words.

Yes it worked so well it was uncanny but her sudden return to America was a blow.

we had met at a songwriting competition.

 

so some of us aproach it as a direct link to poetry as jessie and others [as me] as it living in its own songwriting sphere .

 

But I guess which ever way you look at it there is a link between the two.....but not a natural link as many would expect.A poet isnt a songwriter and a songwriter isnt a neccessarily a poet but the two cross and weave each others paths

 

I consider myself a songwriter but not a poet even though I dabble in poetry.And I do find that I cant easily link any of my poems to music....without making huge changes.And Im not talking my free verse poems either.And I dont really sit down and want to write poetry but rather churn out another song .At the moment Im trying to stop writing and start recording cause everytime I sit in front of a piano I want to start writing...it leaves little time to record and I have a huge backlog of songs to record...I think I should just laydown an easy demo on each then come back and record them.

that way I have the basics of the song at least in front of me so I can refine it later.

[Eric VB]

Good discussion, everyone.

Originally posted by AUSSIEKEYS:

I wonder if I were to write the music first that my music would follow more conventional...perhaps expected structures.

I'm exactly the opposite. When I write music first I usually concentrate on making it as complex as possible. When I write lyrics/melody first, the chords and structure are usually mundane.

 

Writing from a melody first, though, usually produces more natural sounding modulations (key changes, or a chord out of key).

 

Finding the right words for an instrumental composition seems to take some time for me. It usually comes quicker if I start with lyrics. The lyrics suggest a melody, and the melody suggests the arrangement; everything just falls into place. The other way 'round, a melody can emerge from an arrangement, and together they may suggest an emotion or feeling or something, but it's harder for me to find appropriate words that fit.

 

I mean, you can find any old words that fit, like "Scrambled eggs, Oh, baby how I love your legs", but it can be difficult to turn that into "Yesterday".

[Eric VB]

Originally posted by AUSSIEKEYS:

And I do find that I cant easily link any of my poems to music....without making huge changes.And Im not talking my free verse poems either.

Lou Reed in 2003, among many others before and after him, have taken a stab at setting the poetry of Edgar Allen Poe to music .

 

Using classical music (or any other instrumental genre) is both easier and harder at the same time. Obviously, you don't have to come up with a melody to fit the poetry. But you do have to really abstract the meaning and emotions of the poetry and turn them into music.

 

Dylan Thomas\' "Do not go gentle into that good night" has been used for inspiration more than once, although I am partial to the 1979 work by Elliot del Borgo.

 

Once upon a time I thought of taking a stab at Poe, a favorite of mine, but he's already been done to death. Maybe I'll look into Robert Frost ... I remember liking his "Mending Wall" from high school.

[Megiliel]

Poetry and songwriting definitely have a connection, no matter how subtle. I've never been good at coming up with rhymes, or at writing songs, but recently I've started writing poems in free verse. If I read back over them, a lot of times I can get an idea for a song. It really does help with emotional issues and such.

Great idea for a topic (that is called a topic, right? This is my first reply).

[nursers]

You are right - and welcome

[AUSSIEKEYS]

Originally posted by Megiliel:

Great idea for a topic (that is called a topic, right? This is my first reply).

cool a new topic

 

please feel free to start a new topic

 

we are waiting... cheers

[davorp]

What do you think of this song i wrote 2004 and still dont have the music for it......

 

 

 

I STILL REMEMBER YOU

 

(verse1)

It was a small desert town

I remember the smell in the air

we were walking in the night

it was our first date

everything you said was funny

everything you did was great

Angel of mine you've always been

If we only had another spin

you would see our love grow

but all I have left now is sorrow

 

 

(chorus x2)

I still remember I still recall your lips your body I know it all

 

 

(verse2)

Death took you away

with angels you sleep

you are the only one Im gonna keep

in my heart forever

You will be there in every my dream

cause we were together

cause we were the team

 

 

(chorus x2)

I still remember I still recall your lips your body I know it all

(verse3)

Im watching the stars

I know we are there

dry desert air doesnt smell

the same cause you've gone

my angel God its not fair

Im walking in the night

this time alone like time

has stopped like everythings postponed

 

 

(chorus x2 slow)

I still remember I still recall your lips your body I know it all

 

 

Written by Davor Prcovich (2004)

[Eric VB]

Originally posted by davorp:

What do you think of this song i wrote 2004 and still dont have the music for it......

Hey Davor, welcome to the Songwriting and Composition forum!

 

This is a little off topic (OT), so I'm going to move this to a new topic: click me .

 

Feel free to start a new topic if there's something in particular you'd like to discuss about songwriting or composition.

 

We'd also like to hear your thoughts about songwriting and poetry as discussed on this thread, if you like.

[Moe Monsarrat]

The only real difference between lyrics & poetry is the "singability" of lyrics. There are certain words and/or combinations of words that are more or less easily sung. With straight poetry, you don't need to consider that aspect so much. Another thing that rings true for me is the need for simplicity in lyrics. You gotta make things easy for people to understand. It's better if you talk about things everyone has experienced. They are what we call "universal truths" and are always good for a song subject. Try writing about something YOU think everyone knows about, bringing out all the good OR bad parts of the subject. When you write something people are already familiar with, you'll see the lights go on a lot quicker in their eyes. At this point, without their concious knowledge, you have drawn them into YOUR WORLD & it's now your responsibility to tell them something about it. Something good, bad, funny or interesting....whatever. Make no mistake, this is your chance to touch their souls with your art. Do not take it lightly.

[AUSSIEKEYS]

yes I like Moes take on singability.

and we think carefully how we place these words.

 

I believe he is onto something here.

But it comes at a price...ie you are committing yourself to a formulae.

That is fine if you are wanting to capitalise your song either in money or acceptance.

I am not disagreeing on his point infact the opposite but I dont, and we shouldnt, negate the freeflowing side of songwriting that can produce some very interesting songs.

 

Also with what Moe said about People want songs they can hold onto instantly....

Unfortunately "BIG" success seems to be when a song is written for the lowest common denominator to latch on to..ie.joe ordinary

and this seems to create massive sales as it filters up thru the ranks of buyers / enjoyers..

 

But if sales are not your worry then do your own style let it flow out...

 

does it matter to you what others think...

 

oh YOU are saying.....YES....

 

well Moes rules above maybe will head you in the right direction.

 

I agree totally in Moes take on this...and it could bring you hit after hit and acceptance but it may dull artistic endeavor too.

 

But who defines artistic endeavour?

 

is it acceptance by

1 the people

2 the critics

3 the money brokers

4 the other artists

5 the "golden boy artist put on a pedastal"

6 or by you.

 

this is hard to determine.

 

I would like to make money out of my songs...yes that would give me a level of success to my endeavour.

 

Probably due to the fact that I have had the people enjoy my songs listening to my various original bands.

i have had small radio airplay.

I have had songwriting critics congratulate me on my songwriting abilities ..ie at songwriting events.

i have not yet had a "golden boy artist" praise my work

I have not had the money brokers shower me with money.

 

but finally the one I am Aiming for is actually the praise from other Artists......and why is this Important to me...well it is money based this is how I want to market my songs eventually via other artists performing my songs and thus me surviving on the royalties.[i'm too old to make it now with them}

 

thus in this regard I must follow Moes formulae....but when I sit at a piano and write a song I dont necessarily folow that formulae as so many songs come out I dont limit myself to any formulae as I can just pick and choose what I think is appropriate for what market.

 

But unfortunately although the songs flow easily, due to health reasons I find it difficult to plonk myself down in my studio and concentrate on putting these songs to a finished product...I procastinate,I tire easily,I lose concentration,I lie down.

Yes as much as I pump out the songs I just cant put them to "vynyl" to distribute as a demo to those muso's or agents that I want to consider my work.

So because of this I still find exteme happiness in off the wall writing.A matter of fact I dont actually sit down with a formulae in mind but I write a song and then determine does it fit Moes formulae...that way I do not limit my writings and perhaps that why they flow out so readily.

i guess if you write enough a few good ones are gotta come out..the rest can hold up that leg of that wonky table in the corner.

[Eric VB]

I don't know, AUSSIEKEYS, if I'd necessarily call Moe's comments a formula. They sound more like guidelines to me. As I read it, he's suggesting:

 

1. limiting word choice (to things that sing)

2. simplicity

3. universal subject matter

 

When I hear "formula", I think more along the lines of a hooky chorus, a bridge and three verses that change perspective with regard to speaker or time.

 

For example, Tim McGraw's "Don't Take The Girl". First verse is about a little boy who's father is taking him fishing. A little girl wants to go too, but the boy would rather go fishing with any other boy in town, and pleads with his father "don't take the girl" (in the chorus). Second verse the boy and girl are older and dating (or just married -- I forget) and a robber points a gun at them and now the boy (now a man) pleads with the robber not to kill/harm her when he says "don't take the girl". (Was there a bridge?) In the final verse they're having their first baby but there are complications. The man prays to God: "don't take the girl". The song never resolves if his prayers are heard or not, and as an interesting side-twist (to me), it's vague enough that the mother could be out of hot water but the baby (sex never disclosed) girl needs saving.

 

Anyway, it's obviously a country song, because it deals with marriage, family, children, etc. from an adult perspective. The "rural" aspect of going fishing is also present. The hook to the chorus is how the meaning of the title words change as the song progresses. This is the "twist" that makes it interesting.

 

It's also a great story. The background of the married couple as kids and the boy that didn't want anything to do with girls is a great setup for the heavy emotional scenarios to come. And what a wonderful sentiment that when you love somebody that much you're willing to give up anything; even your own life for them.

 

You could tell the same story, but would it be as effective as a song if you didn't tie everything together with the title phrase? Speaking of the title phrase, it's such a natural, common-sounding phrase, yet it perfectly fits two very different meanings.

[Eric VB]

... continuing on ...

 

Word Choice

If you've never read the lyrics to some of the Tin Pan Alley songs, you should. Look for things around the turn of the last century. In today's terminology, they used a lot of "ten dollar words". You have to be careful with words like that, because they don't necessarily sing well. They often come out sounding stilted, because they are being forced to fit the rhythm of the song instead of following the natural rhythm of speech.

 

Simplicity

And they are definitely not simple words. At least in the U.S., the vocabulary used in newspapers is supposed to be limited to that of a 5th grade student (about 10 years old). Using big words often leads to clever-sounding lyrics; they come across as being too contrived.

 

Universality

I've heard it said that Shakespeare has already written all the possible stories, and anything after is merely a re-telling of his work. Well, I don't know that much about literature, but in terms of hit songs they do tend to gravitate towards universal themes. There's even songs about these songs, like "Another Silly Love Song". Ah, yes, everyone does love a love song.

 

Now, having said that, I've used the word "solitude" in a recent lyric. Not quite as over-the-top vocabulary-wise as some older songs, but probably not something you hear a lot in popular song. (I think Phantom of the Opera uses it, but even that is kind of hoity toity in terms of popular music.) Not too tough to sing, but lacks simplicity.

 

Will my song not be as popular because of this (assuming it ever gets heard)? Possibly. But it's an example of artistic freedom overriding the guidelines to successful songwriting.

 

Oh, and it's not a love song. It is, however, based on a rather universal human need, the need to communicate. Not quite as sexy, so it'll be a tougher sell.

 

So, I guess I'm agreeing with AUSSIEKEYS; even when knowing what makes a successful song, sometimes we have no choice and just have to follow our inner voice and write in a counter style.

[AUSSIEKEYS]

great responces thanks moe and ric

 

yes ric there is no sorrow in following your inner voice...I feel excited when I do.

 

I also feel fulfilled when I follow a formula/guideline [i think these are the same]

 

but as I said formulae [ie plural] I think there are a few versions of formula.[a few versions of guidelines]

 

Sorry for the constant use of the plural...although I did mean plural I got into the habit of using it everywhere because of typing with one finger without reading the page. and beside the plural is a sexy looking word.Lousey typist in a hurry.

 

I find my love songs are always formula/guideline based whether I like it or not...it just happens..very annoying...the resultant songs are fine but I cant seem to turn them into quirky free songs which is my ambition.

 

What is my definition of quirky...well if there was a definition of quirky...perhaps it would not be quirky...but I am inspired by a lot of 80's bands,,... a period of extreme quirkiness I believe.

Yes perhaps I am living in the past. tee hee.

 

Each girlfriend I have gets a song written about her...last girlfriend an abstract artist [actually internationally acclaimed but struggling like us muso's because acclaim or even fame does not always equate to wealth] had 7 songs written about her...why because she inspired me in my art....she actually pushed me to explore my art [ie my song writing and my surrealist/pop painting] and not give up on freedom of expression...

 

so I found the songs just flowed for her and about her...still a love song formula/guidline but heading towards quirkyness.

But out of those 7 songs I reckon one,two, maybe three of them are usable songs to play onstage without being too soppy.I think those 3 songs are saleable the others would go on my own album.

 

Her inspiration as an artist equated to 7 songs far more than 2 songs for any previous girlfriend.

I find that the inspiration of other artists can and does push me to explore my need to create freely....

 

my aim is to be a quirky songwriter,kind of a freedom for me,unbound by convention so to speak...but no matter how hard you try to be free ..even letting the songs flow by themselves can result in either guideline songs or free style songs.But i dont stiffle either.

 

So now what will be will be.,

and if I write enough songs then I guess I can pick and choose out of those songs.

Its like photography take a 1000 photos and you might find that one or two photos that will make your mark.

 

There is no shame in writing good,bad and ugly songs as long as you know once done which are good,bad and ugly and are able to market or forget them appropriately.

 

The shame is not trying.

[AUSSIEKEYS]

Originally posted by davorp:

What do you think of this song i wrote 2004 and still dont have the music for it......

 

 

 

I STILL REMEMBER YOU

 

(verse1)

It was a small desert town

I remember the smell in the air

we were walking in the night

it all

etc

Written by Davor Prcovich (2004)

Hi Davorp

please check Rics critic of your work on his other thread in same forum area.

its one heck of a good reply.

 

see new thread entitled "I Still Remember You" (davorp)

by ric

[Moe Monsarrat]

Sounds like you guys analyzed me pretty well. I did not & would not tell you to restrict yourselves emotionally or verbally in the writing of lyrics. After all, there are no real rules & you can hear exceptions all over the place. The point is to write a song that is not only cathartic but meaningful to others as well. My dear friend Freddy Powers(6 #1 hits & 32 cuts by Merle Haggard, George Jones, Ray Charles...etc) just wrote a song with the word "pertaining" in the 1st verse. You think I'm gonna tell him that's wrong? I doubt it. What I hear from many amatuer writers are very introspective lyrics that I'm sure mean a lot to THEM. They might mean more to US if they were a little better at simplifing things. Look at verses as "coal". Look at choruses as "diamonds". Diamonds are only compressed coal. You can beat around the bush with verses, but the chorus must be the diamond of truth that the verses describe. More later, I have to get to a songwriting appointment in a studio today. Keep at it. Nothing is really more important. Put that weight on yourselves & see what you can do with it. Love, Moe

[Eric VB]

Hey Moe, interesting coal/diamond analogy.

 

Definitely the guys that have already earned their wings, like Freddy Powers, are free to do whatever they want. I think we're all in agreement on that. Just curious: did he rhyme "pertaining"? First word that hit me was "restraining"; don't know why.

 

But yeah, you're right on the mark, crafting a song lyric is quite different from writing poetry.

[Moe Monsarrat]

No, the word "pertaining' was used in the first part of a sentence: "Seems like everything pertaining to you & me just turns out wrong". Personally I wouldn't have used it. I would have used " to do with you & me". But...HE's the MAN.

[thanksforhelpethan]

I know this is a old topic and everyone who was reading it kicked it to the curb. But I am sitting in my studio listening to tunes writing lyrics and just though id come here to check on my question i had in the tech part about cables

 

Anyways...

 

I think my songs are a form of poetry. Maybe not in the classic sence though. Honestly with some songs I count sylibles to be exactly on que with eachother, other times I have fun and take pride in make a line with 3 sylibles 5 sylibles then like 12 sylibles sound great when i say them. It just depends on the song and how I feel it will be best represented. My main skills with music are lyrics and rapping, so I feel in order to become better with either I need to constantly try new things and challenge myself.

 

Ok but this whole damn topic is if I think I write peotry for songs haha... So the answer is yes I do!

 

Have a good one guys.

[Griffinator]

I absolutely strive for lyric that holds up as a spoken poem. If it only works in context with a piece of music, that usually means it's forced meter, forced syntax, and forced rhyme, and typically fraught with cliche.

 

We had a long discussion in the Guitar forum about a piece I wrote some time ago (and completed a rough draft of - clonk the "HEAVY METAL" link in my sig if you're interested) that is probably one of the best purely poetic songs I've written in my life. The music came together for it beautifully. It'll never be a "pop hit" - but that's never really been my goal. My goal whenever I write is to express myself as uniquely as I can. Sure, there's nothing new under the sun as far as song topics go, but there are plenty of ways the English language hasn't been combined to tell the stories...

 

Again, I think the core issue is what do you want to do with your music? If you aspire to professional songwriting, by all means, dumb it down, lest your audience miss the point. Sad truth is, your audience in that situation isn't the public, it's the record execs that decide whether to use your material.

 

I don't think we give the public enough credit, honestly. Joni Mitchell, Bob Dylan, Paul Simon, all had amazing careers writing challenging, poetical lyrics. Case in point:

 

It was a slow day,

And the sun was beating

On the soldiers by the side of the road,

There was a bright light,

A shattering of shop windows

The bomb in the baby carriage

Was wired to the radio,

These are the days of miracle and wonder,

This is the long distance call,

The way the camera follows us in slo-mo

The way we look to us all,

The way we look to a distant constellation

That's dying in a corner of the sky,

These are the days of miracle and wonder

And don't cry baby don't cry

Don't cry,

 

It was a dry wind,

And it swept across the desert

And it curled into the circle of birth,

And the dead sand,

Falling on the children

The mothers and the fathers

And the automatic earth,

These are the days of miracle and wonder,

This is the long distance call,

The way the camera follows us in slo-mo

The way we look to us all,

The way we look to a distant constellation

That's dying in a corner of the sky,

These are the days of miracle and wonder

And don't cry baby don't cry

Don't cry

 

It's a turn-around jump shot

It's everybody jump start

It's every generation throws a hero up the pop charts,

Medicine is magical and magical is art think of

The Boy in the Bubble

And the baby with the baboon heart

 

And I believe

These are the days of lasers in the jungle,

Lasers in the jungle somewhere,

Staccato signals of constant information,

A loose affiliation of millionaires

And billionaires and babies,

These are the days of miracle and wonder,

This is the long distance call,

The way the camera follows us in slo-mo

The way we look to us all

The way we look to a distant constellation

That's dying in a corner of the sky,

These are the days of miracle and wonder

And don't cry baby don't cry

 

Most of us old enough remember that #1 hit well...

 

[Musicbookman]

absolutely. although not all poetry is rhythmic, the majority of it is based on rhythm, the lifeblood of music. also, both are used as mediums for expressing your feelings.

[dp2]

I believe that poetry and songwriting are inseparable, and they come from the same source--like matter and energy. Yet, I don't believe that any arbitrary singer can or should sing every poem/song. I personally believe it's more about what's inside a person that dis-/enables one to sing a particular poem/song.

 

Listen to both Dione Warrick's and Luther Vandross' versions of "A House Is Not a Home". That song is a poem, and that poem is a beautiful song. Now imagine a 3-year-old trying to sing that song. Even if the 3-year-old could get through all of the lyrics of that tune, that version will most likely be less musical, because that 3-year-old doesn't have enough life experience to be able to sing that song (or express the words of that poetry) the way it was meant to be performed.

 

Joe Cocker paid Stevie Wonder to write an award-winning song for him. Stevie Wonder wrote the song, Joe Cocker sang it, and it bombed. Joe Cocker accused Stevie Wonder of having written a bum tune, and Stevie Wonder countered that Joe Cocker didn't sing it right. A little later, Stevie Wonder release his version of that tune (Superstition), and he received all kinds of awards and accolades.

 

Instead of singing poems/songs, I perfer to see certain performers to rap or expressively recite the lyrics to music. Good poems--just like good songs--have a strong sense of rhythm. Free-verse poetry is an advanced form, and it goes great with free jazz or atonal classical. Free verse poetry has complex meter, and it often features lots of meter changes, so it should accompany a score written/performed with similar rhythm/meter changes.

[dp2]

absolutely. although not all poetry is rhythmic, the majority of it is based on rhythm, the lifeblood of music. also, both are used as mediums for expressing your feelings.

I disagree. All good poetry is rhythmic--but that doesn't necessarily infer (or imply) that the meter never changes.