Is the hi-hat a cliche?

[techristian]

Jazz and FUNK both break the rules. In both you can have cymbals or hi-hat on the "ands" rather than on the beat. Death Metal, while still having some emphasis on 2 and 4, shifts some of the emphasis over to to pounding of double bass drums at over 800 BPM and extensive ROLLS on the toms. Eastern music, with what we westerners call "odd time", breaks all of the rules of rythm in modern POP music.

 

When I was beginning as a drummer, I was even told to play snare on 2 and 4 LOUDER, for even greater emphasis.

 

Dan

 

http://teachmedrums.com/bigsolo.wmv

[miroslav]

To me...a good sounding Hat is critical.

 

For my studio kit I have three Hats...my fave being a 13" Zildjian Mastersound.

It is a very musical Hat...that can yield much more than a single "chick" sound...BUT...it really depends on how good the drummer is, and if he/she knows how to work the whole Hat.

 

Same thing with Cymbals...you can get so many sounds out of one Cymbal...but you have to really work them, and not just "crash", "crash".

 

My go-to drummer makes the kit sing...it's not just a percussive instrument when he plays it...so nothing ever sounds cliché.

[offramp]

Prague, if you're sick of hi-hat, then I suggest you get thee to any recording that utilises Manu Katche` on drums.

You will gain new respect for the little plates.

[BP3]

Originally posted by offramp:

You can be sure Stewart Copeland has already recorded it.

Stewart has a high hat credit on Peter Gabriel's "Red Rain". Manu Katche played the rest of the kit. Weird.

[offramp]

AND "Big Time"

[Mark Zeger]

Great point, Phil, about Mick Fleetwood. You're probably thinking of "Dreams", where the crash comes on the 2 in the chorus ("Thun-DER always happens when it's raining").

 

 

Originally posted by Lee Flier:

But... Peter Gabriel 3. No cymbals.

It might be PG2 that was done with no cymbals. That's the Robert Fripp produced album. IIRC, it was around that time that Fripp had this thing against cymbals, believing them to occupy too much frequency range he wanted to sonically fill with guitar. Like Super 8 said, Bill Bruford had no cymbals with King Crimson.

 

(BB is the only guy I stand to hear play Simmons drums, but that's another topic).

[Prague]

I like hi-hats.

 

There are many fine examples of their use. There are way too many examples of their use as a filler.

 

It's people's unconscious overuse of them that I am addressing. I've seen it a billion times. So has everyone else.

 

Maybe, just maybe, us creative types might want to rethink our approach.

 

I see some great ideas are here already.

[Super 8]

Originally posted by Mark Zeger:

IIRC, it was around that time that Fripp had this thing against cymbals, believing them to occupy too much frequency range he wanted to sonically fill with guitar. Like Super 8 said, Bill Bruford had no cymbals with King Crimson.

I don't think that's completely accurate. Fripp didn't necesarilly have anything against cymbals, so much as he questioned their necessity. Do we have to have a hi-hat? Can we get by without it?

And Bill DID use cymbals with 'Disipline-era' Crimson. I can think of several cymbal crashes on those albums. But Fripps goal was obviously to take a very minimalistic approach to playing the music. So Bill had to be very restrained, or at least very creative in the way he approached his 'over-playing'. Bill of course, never plays anything the same way twice.

 

(BB is the only guy I stand to hear play Simmons drums, but that's another topic).

Oh, by all means feel free to talk. Bill is a favorite of mine.

[Franknputer]

Hell - are drum kits themselves a cliche? Discuss.

[Billster]

Originally posted by Super 8:

Bill Bruford went for about 3 years without a hi-hat, at Robert Fripp's request.

I was going to say that!

 

Originally posted by Super 8:

I think it's a little like telling a guitarist you're going to remove some of his strings.

Now there's an idea Somebody (I forget) once did some "prepared guitar" where they put paper clips or rubber bands or other stuff on some of the strings at the bridge to mute them out and make things weird.

 

Keith Richards often plays with only 5 strings (no low E)

 

And of course, some guitar players could benefit from removing more than one string. Like maybe six.

[phaeton]

1) Check out the drum work on some Violent Femmes tunes...

 

2) IIRC the "crash cymbal on beat 2" thing that Phil is talking about is rampant in a lot of swing and jazz of the 30s. Although they use a lot of hi-hat in the:

 

chicka-chuh-----chicka-chuh----chicka-chuh----

 

train...

[ihategarybettman]

I love hi hats; imaginitively played, they are magical. I believe it was Jo Jones who, during clinics, would walk out on stage with nothing but a pair of hi hats and sticks and blow people away with a 20-minute display of virtuosity and dynamics. Also, can you imagine Aerosmith's "Walk This Way" without the bass drum/hi hat sizzle intro?

[doc taz]

Screw y'all. I like blast beats for breakfast, lunch, and dinner!

 

I'm talkin' the ones where the drummer's hitting the snare, a cymbal (usu. the ride or open hihat), and a bass drum at the same time. Major points if the bass drum(s) are hit at supersonic speed. *growls* UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUNGH!

 

(...not all the time, of course, and not for love songs, either. )

[phaeton]

and not for love songs, either

 

Why not?

[Jotown]

Just about everything musical is a cliche.

Hi-hat in 1/8 and 1/4's,

Les Paul through a Marshall playing power chords,

Piano players playing the root and 5 with the left hand.

 

It's all been done to death, but the secret is doing it like your doing it for the first time.

 

Some things just work; thats all.

[doc taz]

Originally posted by phaeton:

and not for love songs, either

 

Why not?

Ok... maybe if you're playing Cannibal Corpse's "F***** with a Knife". LOL

[Bunny Knutson]

Originally posted by Prague:

I like hi-hats.

 

There are many fine examples of their use. There are way too many examples of their use as a filler.

 

It's people's unconscious overuse of them that I am addressing. I've seen it a billion times. So has everyone else.

 

Maybe, just maybe, us creative types might want to rethink our approach.

 

I see some great ideas are here already.

OK, now I see what you're getting at. I play drums, and I agree that there are many ways to approach playing new beat ideas without resorting to "clichés." I really like coming up with "odd" beats. But I also enjoy playing fairly straightforward "cliché" beats, depending on the song.

 

Originally posted by TinderArts:

Stewart has a high hat credit on Peter Gabriel's "Red Rain". Manu Katche played the rest of the kit. Weird.

Originally posted by offramp:

AND "Big Time"

Well, you're both close to being right.

 

Stewart Copeland did play the hi-hat on "Red Rain," while the drum kit was played by Jerry Marotta (not Manu Katché), with Linn programming by Chris Hughes.

 

And Stewart Copeland played the whole drum kit (including the hi-hat ) on "Big Time," with Linn kick by Jimmy Bralower.

 

Regardless, Manu Katché is definitely a talented drummer who has his own very recognizable style.

[offramp]

Y'know, I've slept since then. Bite me.

 

 

[Bunny Knutson]

[theblue1]

You'd never be able to get anyone to listen to music if it didn't use cliches...

 

The audience is drawn to cliches like moths to a flame.

 

 

Er, uh....

 

[Super 8]

Originally posted by theblue1:

The audience is drawn to cliches like moths to a flame.

Not me! I avoid cliches like the plague!

[Griffinator]

Originally posted by Billster:

Somebody (I forget) once did some "prepared guitar" where they put paper clips or rubber bands or other stuff on some of the strings at the bridge to mute them out and make things weird.

 

Keith Richards often plays with only 5 strings (no low E)

 

And of course, some guitar players could benefit from removing more than one string. Like maybe six.

And let's not forget the Presidents of the USA - their guitarist played with 3 strings, their bassist with two - and what a huge sound they put out! Great producer involved in that little package, to get such a massive sound out of such a minimalist band...

[phaeton]

Didn't the bassist from Enuff Z Nuff play on only 2 bass strings? So much that he had a bass custom made with a 2-string neck?

 

hmm?

 

(i guess i should be asking my Network Engineer, he went to school w/ those guys )

 

Something else i might add, and maybe this is just me-

 

I dig complex music- prog rock/hard rock/metal/surf/classical, etc. It's got its appeal and it's got its place.

 

But the rhythm lines (drums n bass) that really shake me up, the ones that i feel way down in my bones, are often somewhat *sparse*. As someone here once said about bass guitar- what you don't play is just as important as what you do play.

 

Stuff feels "bigger" when there's less of it.

[waveyl]

There, There (radiohead)

[doc taz]

Originally posted by phaeton:

Didn't the bassist from Enuff Z Nuff play on only 2 bass strings? So much that he had a bass custom made with a 2-string neck?

 

hmm?

 

 

Stuff feels "bigger" when there's less of it.

Tony Levin has a 3 string Stingray bass from Ernie Ball.

 

Is that always true?

[Ernest Buckley]

Phil writes..."Stewart Copeland's work on some of the Police tracks would be a good example"

 

I agree.

 

Coplands drumming is some of the most original. He took a very orchestral approach to drumming for the Police.

 

The hi hat is almost a standard however I too have found myself straying from this practice of using it strictly on the 8ths. For example, lots of my newer stuff is depending on the kick and snare to hold the rhythm and when I want the song to feel like its picking up speed (usually on verse 2 or chorus) I`ll add the hats.

 

I agree about the cymbals as well. Too many of them hitting on the 1. I actually talked my drummer into landing on the 2 on one of my songs that is being released on the next album. Its definitely working but I think this song was an exception.

 

The other thing is, we in the Western world are SO used to a certain rhythm, we have difficulty feeling something else other than 4/4 on the radio.

 

Yes, there are exceptions but you could probably name all of the songs on two hands that are considered radio worthy that are not in 4/4.

 

ie: Angel by Sarah MacLachlan is in 3/4

[Lee Knight]

I watched the Ravonettes on Conan the other night and the drummer played 16ths with his Hihat hand on the snare rim, while playing the basic 2 + 4 on the snare proper. Pretty cool. No hat...

[RABid]

But ... but ... you cannot leave out the hi-hat. That is the easiest part of a song. Just open up the grid in your sequencer, set it to 16th notes, and swipe the mouse across the page. ... Instant hi-hat part good for 100,000 songs.

 

Robert

[RABid]

Being serious now, remember three basic roles of the drums. The bass locks the down beat, the snare defines the push, and the hi-hat defines the swing. That is why a GOOD drummer can sound like a good drummer with only those three pieces in a kit. If you drop the hi-hat/ride cymbal, or just mess around with the role, you need to decide if something else needs to cover that job. For programmed music it is not as much of a problem. For a live band the value of these parts and the person playing them is priceless.

 

Robert

[zele]

Luckily we use samples & a sequencer---performed on our drum kit pads >> for all percussion tracks--we just scroll a dial for something other that a hi-hat...if just does not fit.