Is the hi-hat a cliche?

[Prague]

Every time I see a drummer get on a kit, he immediately starts in on the hi-hat holding down 1/4 or 1/8 notes.

 

Most all music that uses the standard drumkit seems to have the incessant chick-chick-chick hi-hat going on.

 

I programmed a drum track on a song (just for writing purposes) and didn't add the hi-hat. It actually was a nice change. The other drums and instruments ended up augmenting each other to imply the rhythm.

 

Anyone know of any drumkit songs that DON'T have the hi-hat or ride cymbal going? (Cowbell and maraca substitutions need not apply, but try me).

 

A somewhat similar cliche is the crash cymbal on the downbeats. Finish What Ya Started has NO crash cymbals. Nice touch. Not to be Van Halen-esque, but even Panama removes the hihat in favor of a tom ride.

[Philip OKeefe]

I like it when drummers hold off on the downbeat crash cymbals for a beat or so - Mick Fleetwood did that on some Fleetwood Mac cuts IIRC, and hit on 2 instead of on the downbeat... a nice effect, but I would recommend aganst overusing it.

 

Hi hats are the "metronome" and generally the "timekeeper" in much of western popular music. I personally don't find 8th or 16th note hi hat patters to be a problem, but I do like it when players "mix things up" a bit sometimes - Stewart Copeland's work on some of the Police tracks would be a good example of that IMO. Of course, it has to make sense in the musical content of the tune.

[Jeff Klopmeyer]

I don't think you can generalize to the degree that "all 8th note hi-hats are cliche", or that "every song needs the hi-hat metronome".

 

Certain songs call for it. Others don't. I guess the best bet is to be open enough to try new things (as a drummer, as a producer, whatever) and see how the song works with or without.

 

BTW, great example with Stewart Copeland. One of the reasons he bamboozles so many drummers is that he's much more likely to not take the traditional rock approach, playing much more like a jazz drummer that treats each piece of his kit as an individual instrument.

 

- Jeff

[Bunny Knutson]

While we're at it, we may as well discuss the old cliche of the snare drum on beats 2 and 4. Boy, is that overused!

[Lee Flier]

Yeah, I was gonna say, Bunny... Really, hi hat is no more a cliche than anything else. Maybe you want to hear something different but that doesn't make it a cliche.

 

But... Peter Gabriel 3. No cymbals.

[Philip OKeefe]

Ditto the "no cymbals" on some Prince cuts.

 

And what's the deal with kick drums on the downbeat? That's SO overused.

[theblue1]

As I recall, the word at the time was that Gabriel was using a Linn drum machine (the first dedicated digital drum machine, I believe) and liked the way its drums sounded -- but hated the cymbals. I don't know, at all, if that's true. (Well, it's true that it's a Linn.)

 

But the Linn certainly had some awful sounding cymbals. That much is inarguable.

[not Cereal]

how about korn?

 

ya know, the hihat with a band atatched.

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by theblue1:

But the Linn certainly had some awful sounding cymbals. That much is inarguable.

Everything about the Linn sounded awful, and I considered it the bane of my existence. But that's another story.

[dlbmusic]

The was a Peter Gabrial album with no cymbols at all. cool, but its interesting how there is something missing, high end and presence to the trax was empty. Kinda like if you took the bass guitar out how the bottom would be weak.

[theblue1]

Actually, since I'm listening to PG3 right now, I have to say that there actually are some high hats and cowbells on part of it. ("And Through the Wire" and "Games Without Borders," for instance, which is where I am in the album -- though I must admit I wasn't paying attention all the way through.)

 

And, maybe it's just the intervening decades, but the Linn samples don't bug me all that much. But then, I've listened to so much music in those intervening decades with the awful-for-the-sake-of-awfulness Roland TR family of drum machines... so, you know...

 

[Jeff Klopmeyer]

Originally posted by not Cereal:

ya know, the hihat with a band atatched.

Ha!

 

True.

 

- Jeff

[Philip OKeefe]

I've been considering doing a solo hi hat record... I think there might be a market for it, even though Korn has essentially already done it.

[where02190]

There is of course the infamous Phil Colins, "In the air tonight". No cymbals at all. I did once hear a not drums just cymbals version also, it was very, very weird.

[KB Gunn]

Originally posted by Lee Flier:

Originally posted by theblue1:

But the Linn certainly had some awful sounding cymbals. That much is inarguable.

Everything about the Linn sounded awful, and I considered it the bane of my existence. But that's another story.

They are no better now then they were in the past. I just got and quickly returned the Adrenalinn II. The drums sounded very 8 bit and the models were nothing to rave about. Plus you can't control the drums with a midi keyboard. It is just a simple drum machine. Very 70's. My POD 2 with the latest upgrade blows the doors off of it. Everyone knows what that sounds like, so just imagine how bad the Linn is.

[Keysking]

... to actually answer the question.....

 

U2 has a few songs that dont have constant hats going.

"With or Without you" is one... it has the occaisional hihat but it is only augmenting an accent, not holding the beat,.

 

I think there are some coldplay songs that dont use hats constantly.

 

how about Queen's "We will rock you".... cant remember hats on that... ( i may be mistaken though)

[Prague]

Oh, well. I sometimes like to rethink the obvious. Perhaps that not hip.

 

However, next time you watch a drummer, you'll see what I see.

 

I have a drum part that only plays a downbeat on 2 and 3 (in 4/4). The accents are on the "and" of 4 and also on 3. The downbeat is implied, yet most musicians get fooled into what the downbeat really is. It's very simple but most musicians can't count it correctly.

 

If you mix up the obvious, the subtle changes add to a whole new feel.

[offramp]

Originally posted by Philip O'Keefe:

I've been considering doing a solo hi hat record... I think there might be a market for it, even though Korn has essentially already done it.

You can be sure Stewart Copeland has already recorded it.

[Philip OKeefe]

Drats!

 

Then again, I'm sure his would be much much cooler than mine. He's one of my favorite drummers.

[dayvel]

Originally posted by offramp:

Originally posted by Philip O'Keefe:

I've been considering doing a solo hi hat record... I think there might be a market for it, even though Korn has essentially already done it.

You can be sure Stewart Copeland has already recorded it.

If he did, Max Roach beat him by a couple decades.

[theblue1]

I have a track I did back in the early mid 90s with where the verses have HH tracks with 8th note upbeats (or however you say the 2, 4, 6, 8 1/8ths) accented and an otherwise very langorous, ill-defined wash.

 

Most of the track was programmed, but it was kind of interesting and provocative doing the vocal. We're so conditioned. Well, I'm so conditioned, anyhow.

 

I ended up having a buddy cut sax to it and forgot to warn him... the first time through he got this screwy look on his face when the verse came in. Oh yeah, about those hats.

 

I offered to throw on a downbeat hat across it and he said, no, he sort of wanted the challenge.

 

And he mentioned that Dion's "The Wanderer" also has an 'uptick' hat.

[anyhorizon]

Originally posted by Prague:

I have a drum part that only plays a downbeat on 2 and 3 (in 4/4). The accents are on the "and" of 4 and also on 3. The downbeat is implied, yet most musicians get fooled into what the downbeat really is. It's very simple but most musicians can't count it correctly.

---boom--boom-bup--bup. Gotta be a shuffle. Groovy. Can I steal it. Thanks. If it's straight, no thanks. You need to augment your teledex.

[Super 8]

Bill Bruford went for about 3 years without a hi-hat, at Robert Fripp's request.

 

I think it's a little like telling a guitarist you're going to remove some of his strings.

 

The hat is such an expressive part of the drum kit, much like the snare drum.....you can get a TON of mileage out of it.

 

I get tired of cliche rhythms too, but some beats just work so well you can't really improve upon them. No sense in trying to reinvent the wheel.

 

Drums without the hi-hat sound boring and dull to me.

[pseudonym]

I'm mostly a guitar player, then a bass player, then a keyboard player, and now I'm in a band playing drums. Maybe it's just them, but they really like expressive high-hat, and I'm getting better at it.

 

I listen to Keith Moon and John Bonham for inspiration and hear the high-hat only in rare places, and "our" band doesn't play at all with that kind of expression.

 

It's all about the music..........and when the drummer can do a solo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[digibird]

Originally posted by Prague:

I have a drum part that only plays a downbeat on 2 and 3 (in 4/4). The accents are on the "and" of 4 and also on 3.

This is fun, Prague. The variation of your pattern that I like is kick on 2 and 3 and the and of 4, and snare on 3. Can you use that?

 

Part of Stuart Copeland's sound/groove is often no kick on 1 (Message in a Bottle verses are a good example). = Kick on 2 and the and of 2, and snare on 4. (and "Every Breath You Take" verses have no hi-hat but do have kick on 1)

Copeland's no 1 is the exact opposite of a groove like Parliament Funkadelic, where everything is all on the 1.

Funny how you can use or not use such a strong downbeat to such excellent effect in both cases.

 

Part of the problem often is a hi-hat too loud in the mix. I never use a mic for hi-hat. Between the snare and overheads there is always plenty of hat bleed. Sometimes still too much. Some folks mix the hat too loud on their drum machine parts, too, which gets old real fast.

 

Another problem some drummers and programmers have with hi-hat is lack of dynamics. If you're gonna play eighth notes on the hat, accent 1,2,3 and 4 and play the and of each beat much lighter. Or the opposite, accent the ands. Same for ride cymbal, especially using the bell of the ride. Gotta mix it up, or hat is no longer your friend - I like it sloshing or ticking well in the background of the kick and snare.

 

But good on you, Prague, for trying to look at it a different way. That's where good stuff comes from. I don't think hi-hats are cliche, just often too loud. It hasn't been that long that drummers have been playing a hi-hat with sticks. Originally it was a pedal that sat on the floor to "chick" two cymbals together with the foot, but it only reached about ankle-high. Thus you still sometimes hear it refered to as a sock-cymbal - it socked two cymbals together at sock height. Pulse was usually kept with a ride cymbal, drum rim, cowbell, or both sticks on snare. Later the contraption was raised to where you could hit it with a stick. It was raised higher, thus it's a hi-hat.

 

Couldn't be a high sock, would that be a knee-sock?... no, higher than your knee, but not as high as a hat on your head, so I don't really know about the socks and hats part...hats and socks and socks and hats and cats and bats and rats and mats - sounds like Dr.Seuss on juice a bit too loose...uh, yeah...sorry...

[pseudonym]

Also Bill Ward from Black Sabbath!!!!! Shear druming madnesssssssssssssssss!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[theblue1]

Another track that breaks the hi-hat cliche is "Time of the Season" by the Zombies. The lack of hat really sets off the ride work in the jazzy middle section (and later at the end).

[Prague]

Great. Some good info here. Interesting hi-hat story, digibird.

 

Just watch, though, if you see a band cover something like "Time of the Season". The drummer most likely will be tapping away on the hi-hat.

 

It's good to see that some people notice these things.

[Corner Pocket]

Ringo on "You Won't See Me" or "In My Life" to name two songs with atypical hi-hat parts.

 

A jazz group I play with has an absent minded drummer. He forgets his hi-hat stand on occaision. You'd never notice, unless you were listening for it.

 

Paul

[Tedster]

Originally posted by Philip O'Keefe:

Ditto the "no cymbals" on some Prince cuts.

 

And what's the deal with kick drums on the downbeat? That's SO overused.

Lee and Phil, very humorous, but, you know...I've often wondered, why is that formula so appealing? What is it about the kick on 1 and 3 and the snare on 2 and 4 (unless it's the intro to "The Same Old Song")? Why is that we gravitate to that? What is it about our human perception of rhythm that makes that combination appealing? (shrug)...