Kaway Es920 for gigging

[Chipsandme]

Hi!

I'm a live performer playing jazz 80% (bebop fast lines, stride and blues) and 20% classical (Bach, Debussy, Chopin). I've been looking to buy a piano fitted with a good responsive action and a good piano sound but that doesn't weight too much.

At the moment I'm thinking that the Kawai Es920 might be my only choice, since the Roland FP90x weights too much and I'm not liking the sound out of the Yamaha CP88 or the action of the Nord Piano 5.

 

Is there any shortcomes on getting the Kawai Es920? Am I forgetting other options?

 

Thanks,

Carlos

[CHarrell]

50 minutes ago, Chipsandme said:

Hi!

I'm a live performer playing jazz 80% (bebop fast lines, stride and blues) and 20% classical (Bach, Debussy, Chopin). I've been looking to buy a piano fitted with a good responsive action and a good piano sound but that doesn't weight too much.

At the moment I'm thinking that the Kawai Es920 might be my only choice, since the Roland FP90x weights too much and I'm not liking the sound out of the Yamaha CP88 or the action of the Nord Piano 5.

 

Is there any shortcomes on getting the Kawai Es920? Am I forgetting other options?

 

Thanks,

Carlos

 

Have you played the RHIII before? It's an incredibly responsive action, great for fast and/or staccato passages. I'm not a fan of the type of resistance Kawai's RH family has, where the keys feel like they're actively pushing against you, especially for quieter, more legato passages, but that's personal preference. 

 

The sounds are very well detailed for a inbuilt hardware keyboard, but the one thing you have to be watchful for is how well this sound can translate to external amplification. The ES920, thankfully, has the front panel EQ sliders so it might be easier to wrangle that sound than my attempts with the 520.

[CHarrell]

Have you played the RHIII before? It's an incredibly responsive action, great for fast and/or staccato passages. I'm not a fan of the type of resistance Kawai's RH family has, especially for quieter, more legato passages, but that's personal preference. 

 

The sounds are very well detailed for a inbuilt hardware keyboard, but the one thing you have to be watchful for is how well this sound can translate to external amplification. The ES920, thankfully, has the front panel EQ sliders so it might be easier to wrangle that sound than my attempts with the 520.

[Chipsandme]

I haven't played the RHIII, but I found a Kawai Mp7se in Lisbon that I might be able to test. The store has one in stock, I just have to convince them to let me test it.

 

I do like the EQ present in the 920, it's a great tool when playing live.

[GovernorSilver]

The 920 was my favorite among the digital pianos that I tried at a particular store.

 

Coincidentally the Roland FP-90X was my 2nd favorite - so close that I went back and forth between it and the 920 for further assessment.   I like the PHA-50 action.

 

I need to go back to the store though.  I didn't try the Nord Grand 2 for example.  It looks like it ought to be heavy - too heavy in fact to even consider - but the specs say it's actually lighter than the FP-90X.  It reportedly has a modified version of the Kawai RHIII action that is in the 920.

[16251]

I had 110, great action but with off/on effects I was searching for better Rhodes sound but when 920/520 came out I immediately upgraded.

 

Didn't consider 920 because it was heavier, read negative comments about the fake escapement and the price.

 

I got a 520, (I did wish that Kawai offered 520 action with 920 sounds,) but in the end it's fine. It sounds and plays great and I love how the speakers and interface of both models are the same. 

 

BTW for a case, the company Kases makes one that fits 920/520 perfectly and it adds very little weight.

[ProfD]

I dig the Kawai RHIIII action. I plan to cop the MP7SE as my next digital piano. The ES-920 is nice too.😎

[Dockeys]

I was always a Yamaha guy but I tried the es520 about a year ago. I thought the piano was beautiful. It just really sung to me. I was hoping to try the action on the 920 but they didn’t have one in stock. Apparently it has the same action as the mp7se?? Anyway the 920 is too heavy for me these days. 
 

Regarding the CP88 it’s a lovely action, I have the CP73 but I’ve never been a fan of their Nord ish design. 
 

not sure what other ones you could try out unless you wanted to try the Nord grand? Bit heavy though. 

[Chipsandme]

The Nord Grand I got to try this last week, I liked the action but it's to big and heavy for me to carry by myself. And the price tag with the Nord bag is 3500€ 🤯

[DroptopBroham]

CP88 slays the ES920. Your ear just ain't acclimated yet. The Yamaha blows the Kawai out of the water and the action feels great and is fast. There is a reason we all use it. If you don't like the sound of it maybe you need to rethink your amplification.

 

The Kawai's haven't been competitive for a while, definitely need to refresh their stage pianos. Not saying they are like Kurzweil triple strike but Kawai is getting there. The home digital pianos seem to be more of a priority for them, they've neglected their stage piano and they've gone stale.

 

The New Grandstage from Korg looks great and is probably worth a look too. Do yourself a favor and forget Kawai.

[Dave Ferris]

On 10/12/2024 at 3:39 PM, Chipsandme said:

Hi!

I'm a live performer playing jazz 80% (bebop fast lines, stride and blues) and 20% classical (Bach, Debussy, Chopin).

 

Thanks,

Carlos

 

Hi Carlos, fwiw I only play jazz live now - modern straight-ahead with its roots in be bop. Modernizing standards, both jazz and tin pan alley, Latin, with a mix of some light avant-garde. I do practice classical on the side (actually those exact composers you listed in addition to Ravel) at home but not on any digital piano, only my acoustic.

 

Again fwiw, for live playing when an acoustic piano isn't available, I've long posted my preference for Yamaha over Kawai for straight-ahead solo lines, along with blending with the rhythm section of bass and drums. Also when comping behind horns in a quartet or quintet context. I've tried Kawai and while having a pleasant tone and solid action, for my ear, they don't speak as well as Yamaha with regard to clarity within a group context.

 

Having owned and practiced tens of thousands of hours over the last almost four decades on a Yamaha C7e, Yamaha S6 and the Steinway D the last 18 years, Yamaha digital pianos consistently deliver a closer feeling to emulating an acoustic piano in a live jazz ensemble context. Something just always feels "off" when I experiment with other brands like Kawai, Nord, Korg or Roland.

 

I've been on the CP88 the last couple years, before that in order- CP4, CP5, CP300 and P120. When the flagship CP88 is replaced, I most likely will update to the new model, providing of course they don't dis-improve it.

 

I would also to implore you to highly consider your monitor selection. I feel it's imperative to run stereo for best results for the player in a jazz context. I've also experimented with many different brands and sizes of powered speakers - RCF, QSC and Yamaha. The quality speakers from each manufacturer are all good. The premium lines deliver a more hi-fi sound that best flatter the piano sound and further enhance the overall live experience.

 

I've found that an 8" two way box is the most jazz friendly. Anything bigger can easily overwhelm the acoustic bass and obliterate the sonic effect of the 18" bass drum that is the standard size for jazz drummers.

 

Hope that helps and good luck with it. Sound, tone, touch are all very personal, I'm just giving my preference.

 

 

 

 

[CHarrell]

7 hours ago, Dave Ferris said:

I most likely will update to the new model, providing of course they don't dis-improve it.

 

I get nightmares about the next one having GrandTouch S. 😭

 

7 hours ago, Dave Ferris said:

I've found that an 8" two way box is the most jazz friendly. Anything bigger can easily overwhelm the acoustic bass and obliterate the sonic effect of the 18" bass drum that is the standard size for jazz drummers.

 

This is great info!!

[Chipsandme]

8 hours ago, Dave Ferris said:

 

Hi Carlos, fwiw I only play jazz live now - modern straight-ahead with its roots in be bop. Modernizing standards, both jazz and tin pan alley, Latin, with a mix of some light avant-garde. I do practice classical on the side (actually those exact composers you listed in addition to Ravel) at home but not on any digital piano, only my acoustic.

 

Again fwiw, for live playing when an acoustic piano isn't available, I've long posted my preference for Yamaha over Kawai for straight-ahead solo lines, along with blending with the rhythm section of bass and drums. Also when comping behind horns in a quartet or quintet context. I've tried Kawai and while having a pleasant tone and solid action, for my ear, they don't speak as well as Yamaha with regard to clarity within a group context.

 

Having owned and practiced tens of thousands of hours over the last almost four decades on a Yamaha C7e, Yamaha S6 and the Steinway D the last 18 years, Yamaha digital pianos consistently deliver a closer feeling to emulating an acoustic piano in a live jazz ensemble context. Something just always feels "off" when I experiment with other brands like Kawai, Nord, Korg or Roland.

 

I've been on the CP88 the last couple years, before that in order- CP4, CP5, CP300 and P120. When the flagship CP88 is replaced, I most likely will update to the new model, providing of course they don't dis-improve it.

 

I would also to implore you to highly consider your monitor selection. I feel it's imperative to run stereo for best results for the player in a jazz context. I've also experimented with many different brands and sizes of powered speakers - RCF, QSC and Yamaha. The quality speakers from each manufacturer are all good. The premium lines deliver a more hi-fi sound that best flatter the piano sound and further enhance the overall live experience.

 

I've found that an 8" two way box is the most jazz friendly. Anything bigger can easily overwhelm the acoustic bass and obliterate the sonic effect of the 18" bass drum that is the standard size for jazz drummers.

 

Hope that helps and good luck with it. Sound, tone, touch are all very personal, I'm just giving my preference.

 

 

 

Thanks for the detailed info on the Yamaha Cp88  in the context of a jazz setting and the importance of having stereo monitoring for a better playing experience. This is valuable information 👍

I've been a Yamaha guy the last 20 years, and I've played the P90, CP33, CP4, CPL line. This time when I heard the CP88 I was not hearing a piano sound that I think would work with classical repertoire but a lot more to a jazz setting. This and Yamaha actions usually have a little more resistance in the initial touch of the key, something that I feel throws me away from my normal acoustic piano technique (I have an upright at home as my study instrument and  II work with grand pianos thru out the week).

But I think you have raised some valid points and I may need to test the CP88 properly maybe bringing a laptop to see if adding a more versatile piano sound thru VST maybe change my initial views.

In the Kaway Es920 I 'm seeing a little bit of a shift to embody my classical repertoire and some of my original compositions that are more towards classical voicing and rely on a sound with more dynamic colors. But maybe this won't work well in a band context with a more mellow sound that is not as present.

  

 

[Dave Ferris]

"In the Kaway Es920 I 'm seeing a little bit of a shift to embody my classical repertoire and some of my original compositions that are more towards classical voicing and rely on a sound with more dynamic colors. But maybe this won't work well in a band context with a more mellow sound that is not as present."

 

I do think if you are looking for an at home, more of a solo classical based DP, I can see how you feel the Kawai might be a better choice. It does have a smoother, like you said "more mellow sound."

 

I think of the CP88 mainly as a "stage piano", meaning it's meant to played with other musicians in a live setting. The way the pianos are voiced, it's meant to blend or "cut through" the sonics of bass, drums, horns and in rock, louder guitars. In a jazz context I hear and feel it as excelling greatly. Again, going stereo and having good speakers are paramount. Without this crucial part of the chain, any keyboard will sound bad.

[CHarrell]

2 hours ago, Dave Ferris said:

"In the Kaway Es920 I 'm seeing a little bit of a shift to embody my classical repertoire and some of my original compositions that are more towards classical voicing and rely on a sound with more dynamic colors. But maybe this won't work well in a band context with a more mellow sound that is not as present."

 

I do think if you are looking for an at home, more of a solo classical based DP, the Kawai might be a better choice. It does have a smoother, like you said "more mellow sound."

 

I think of the CP88 mainly as a "stage piano", meaning it's meant to played with other musicians in a live setting. The way the pianos are voiced, it's meant to blend or "cut through" the sonics of bass, drums, horns and in rock, louder guitars. In a jazz context I hear and feel it as excelling greatly. Again, going stereo and having good speakers are paramount. Without this crucial part of the chain, any keyboard will sound bad.

 

I've been through so many keyboards over the last 4 years, and if I had to pick a route with all of the knowledge I've gained through all of my--mostly mistaken--choices, my vote would be:

 

CP or YC88 for most things, then if you want a more detailed, nuanced, piano sound, use the USB-Audio interface of one of these and control a good sample library. Practically unstoppable. Unless you absolutely prefer the Kawai action over the Yamaha, it's so much easier to have your bases covered this way then using an ES920 and trying to fill those holes.

[ProfD]

On 10/15/2024 at 4:59 PM, Dave Ferris said:

...having good speakers are paramount. Without this crucial part of the chain, any keyboard will sound bad.

Agreed.

 

IMO, after choosing the *right* KB instrument for yourself, amplification and mixing is the most important yet overlooked aspect of the gear chain.😎

[Ibarch]

On 10/16/2024 at 12:43 AM, CHarrell said:

 

I've been through so many keyboards over the last 4 years, and if I had to pick a route with all of the knowledge I've gained through all of my--mostly mistaken--choices, my vote would be:

 

CP or YC88 for most things, then if you want a more detailed, nuanced, piano sound, use the USB-Audio interface of one of these and control a good sample library. Practically unstoppable. Unless you absolutely prefer the Kawai action over the Yamaha, it's so much easier to have your bases covered this way then using an ES920 and trying to fill those holes.

 

For many genres, especially typical 80s/ 90s music many cover bands play, the CP/YC boards from Yamaha fall far short of sufficient, never mind unstoppable. At least to my ears which have had decades of Roland synths whispered in. Then there is the actions and portability too. 

 

Lots more to this decision for gigging with a large dose of subjectivity thrown in for good measure. 

 

I really like the Kawai and personally think it blows away the Yamaha boards for piano - and the Roland ones for that matter. Unfortunately it doesn't do much else so well so I went elsewhere (Fantom 08) but I do give the ES920 and the MP11SE a longing glance every once in a while. Fortunately I do have a beautiful Kawai CA piano at home too so can make the sacrifice of no Kawai when out gigging.

[CHarrell]

57 minutes ago, Ibarch said:

For many genres, especially typical 80s/ 90s music many cover bands play, the CP/YC boards from Yamaha fall far short of sufficient, never mind unstoppable.

 

I see your point, my post was very poorly worded. I was referring to the earlier context of jazz type gigs; for gigs requiring a more varied soundset, particularly in-depth  synth sounds, the CP/YC are pretty scant and would need a supplemental sound source.

 

I like Kawai's PHI-XL engine, and in isolation sound better to me than any other manufacturer, but it was really hard for me to get it to speak well in a stage environment with other players. Practically the second I turned on a Yamaha like the CP88, I'd get compliments from the band on the sound, and they were disappointed when I sold it for financial reasons.

 

If Kawai made a lighter MP7SE successor, though, I would be tempted, not gonna lie.

[AnotherScott]

When I was evaluating DPs years ago, I thought the Kawai MP10 was the best sounding out of tons I'd tried. Of course, the 70 lb weight stopped me from even thinking about buying it, but I thought it easily beat the other top models of the time that I tried, including Nord (their Grand Imperial sample being the latest at the time), Roland (including the original $7000 V-Piano), Kronos (the only multi-GB options on the market), and Yamahas (I think CP4 was the top I tried).

[The_Star_Guy]

On 10/17/2024 at 3:24 PM, CHarrell said:

 

I see your point, my post was very poorly worded. I was referring to the earlier context of jazz type gigs; for gigs requiring a more varied soundset, particularly in-depth  synth sounds, the CP/YC are pretty scant and would need a supplemental sound source.

 

I like Kawai's PHI-XL engine, and in isolation sound better to me than any other manufacturer, but it was really hard for me to get it to speak well in a stage environment with other players. Practically the second I turned on a Yamaha like the CP88, I'd get compliments from the band on the sound, and they were disappointed when I sold it for financial reasons.

 

If Kawai made a lighter MP7SE successor, though, I would be tempted, not gonna lie.

 

 

I do currently own a Kawai ES-920 but it stays securely at home inside of a custom piano shell (never gigged).   I use it for composing & recordings   I simply adore the Kawai sound engine as well!   I think the ES-520 is the model currently most suitable for gigging live, but I too am anxiously awaiting the replacement/successor to the MP7SE.    The quality of the Acoustic Piano, Rhodes and Clav samples of my ES-920 are quite nice!

[ProfD]

2 hours ago, The_Star_Guy said:

I too am anxiously awaiting the replacement/successor to the MP7SE.

Before NAMM 2024, I asked a Kawai rep if there was a successor MP in the pipeline. There wasn't at the time.

 

The MP7SE/MP11SE was released in 2018 which makes it an *old* product nowadays.

 

Anything is possible. Kawai could update the MP series in 2025 or 2026.

 

Considering the MP is a DP (digital piano),  I'd imagine improvements could be a better GUI and computer integration and maybe better DA/AD converters. I don't believe the action or sounds will be too much different.

 

IOW, providing a current brand new MP7SE or MP11SE is mechanically solid, it's still a worthwhile buy. At least to this muso who regularly plays a 40+ year old Rhodes. YMMV.😎