Complexity at the price of musicality?

[CyberGene]

It’s not always about “getting” it. Some of his harmonically advanced music is not in any way more difficult to understand/get/comprehend than jazz. It’s basically the same devices but applied way too much. I used to get blown away by it at first but quickly grew tired. The guy is a genius and has some hearing that is out of this world. But for my music taste it’s just too spicy for the sake of being spicy. That’s just me, other people may like it that way and that’s OK. Kind of reminds me Indian food, I love curry but I wouldn’t be able to eat it every day, once a month is about right. But Indians eat it every day and they may find other type of food too simple.

[AROIOS]

35 minutes ago, JoJoB3 said:

Rudess has far too many side affects and is often used as a sleep aid.

Science has come a long way now in delivering actual relief for those suffering Colliers - relief that works!  Take 3 of these and don't call anyone.
 

 

What intrigues me is that Rudess and McDuffy are both "shredding", just on different scales. What brings one "many side effects" and the other "actual relief"? Rudess' metal-guitar-like lead sound vs. B3's softer tone? 😃

[JoJoB3]

Just now, AROIOS said:

What intrigues me is that Rudess and McDuffy are both "shredding", just on different scales. What brings one "many side effects" and the other "actual relief"? Rudess' metal-guitar-like lead sound vs. B3's softer tone? 😃

Ok...but there's a difference! Rudess runs/shreds scales, while McDuff runs/plays those same scales but in a musically pleasing, soulful and adult way.
He also plays pedals and operates a vintage Hammond organ at the same time while Rudess spins a terrible looking, expensive, revolving keyboard stand so the audience can better see said nothingness.

McDuff - +1
Rudess - 0

[GovernorSilver]

Somebody bring McDuff back from the dead, put him onstage with a Korg Kronos and make him jam on it.   Kronos will have to be taped up or otherwise rigged so McDuff will be forced to play synth tones only - no CX3 organ, no piano, etc.

 

Put Rudess on the other side of the stage with a vintage B3 and Leslie.

 

1...2..3.... Fight!

[Reezekeys]

  

2 hours ago, AROIOS said:

I don't usually see this side of you, Reezekeys. It's interesting how easily folks get worked up over topics about a few usual suspects like Jordan Rudess, Lachy Doley, Rick Beato, and Jacob Collier; while similar figures like Cory Henry and Justin Lee Schultz don't elicit nearly as much controversy. It must make for a great research paper in Music Psychology.

 

I admit it, I get a little triggered when I read some of the comments about JC. I did hesitate before hitting the return key, then thought "F it." Maybe I should have expressed my thoughts in a simple phrase I've used before in this situation: "sorry but I gotta go with team Herbie and Quincy on this one!" 🙂 

 

I think it comes down to what we've listened to, studied, an enjoyed in our own musical journey. I grew up playing jazz and listening to Gil Evan's voicings on Mile's Sketches Of Spain. Herbie's arranging on the Prisoner and Speak Like A Child. Ivan Lins's and Dori Caymmi's chord progressions and voicings. I resonate with people that do interesting and unusal things with harmony. There's a documentary on JC (highly recommended, I'm gonna try and find the link before I post this!). Herbie is sitting in the studio as JC is laying down a track, asking in amazement, "what IS that chord?!" Herbie Hancock is surprised by a chord, lol! See, what many might call "complex", "too much", or "why does he need to do that", etc., I see as a jazz guy stretching out with a very imaginative and original approach. To see that's somehow a problem for some is... well, I just don't get it. So yea, it's frustrating reading those comments - what's wrong with me?! 🙂 

 

PS - this is the doc on JC: 

 

[Tusker]

A number of people have made analogies between Jordan Rudess and Jacob Collier. I must admit, I don't see the resemblance. I think the writer sets up a false dilemma and falls into an intellectual trap of his own making.

 

Jacob Collier uses a lesser known set of idioms, and there is complexity in his harmonic thought. Jordan Rudess uses well known idioms (to those familiar with European culture) and the musical thoughts are quite simple, though there is performance technique, which is another matter.

 

Somebody described Bach as complex, but to me the beauty of Bach is neither simplicity nor complexity but clever story telling. His stories even when simple will catch you by surprise. Plot twists and unexpected symmetries hide everywhere and pop out to delight you when you least expect them. At journey's end you feel fulfilled. Sandy Lindser and Denny Randall would agree. It doesn't hurt to have the brilliant Diana Ross communicate those symmetries. I don't doubt Bach's brilliance but his music can be loved by a child.

 

Mcduff's playing is also filled with pleasant surprises and symmetries of the type which have been developed over 200 years in Cathedrals and Salons in Europe and then fused with Jazz and Blues vocabulary by the great American artists of the 20th century. I love McDuffs enclosures, but I also hear insanely great enclosures from Bach, Mozart, Art Tatum, and Charlie Parker. 

 

If I have no interest in harmonic vocabulary, I cannot hear the emotion in Collier's writing. If I am not excited by performance technique I cannot be moved by Rudess. If I am from a culture that is very removed from Western culture, I may see not hear beauty even in Bach. Or Parker. Or McDuff.

 

Curry is not for everyone. Neither is Wiener Schnitzel.  Should we be surprised that human culture is part universal and part local?

[analogika]

4 minutes ago, Tusker said:

Somebody described Bach as complex, but to me the beauty of Bach is neither simplicity nor complexity but clever story telling. His stories even when simple will catch you by surprise.

 

That's not Bach. That's Christian Petzold. Bach collected it and added it to his "Notenbüchlein für Anna Magdalena", which compiled various short contemporary pieces, many his own (but not all), arranged for easy-to-intermediate piano skills to match the level of his niece. 

[Tusker]

15 minutes ago, analogika said:

 

That's not Bach. That's Christian Petzold. Bach collected it and added it to his "Notenbüchlein für Anna Magdalena", which compiled various short contemporary pieces, many his own (but not all), arranged for easy-to-intermediate piano skills to match the level of his niece. 

 

That's a very helpful clarification. 👏 I'll keep the original post to embarrass myself, with its inaccuracy. Thank you. 👍

 

The musical illustration works, whether we use Bach's writing or Bach's good taste. Music is sometimes a shared journey. We can see it in the progression from a minuet to a pop song or the use of enclosures from Mozart to McDuff. But it's a high bar to expect all musical idiom to speak to me equally. It's silly to pretend that I bestride the world like a colossus. My appreciation depends on the composer, but it also depends on my own exposure.

[ElmerJFudd]

6 minutes ago, Tusker said:

 

That's a very helpful clarification. 👏 I'll keep the original post, with its inaccuracy. Thank you. 👍

 

The musical illustration works, whether we use Bach's writing or Bach's good taste. Music is sometimes a shared journey. We can see it in the progression from a minuet to a pop song or the use of enclosures from Mozart to McDuff. But it's a high bar to expect all musical idiom to speak to me equally. It's silly to pretend that I bestride the world like a colossus. My appreciation depends on the composer, but it also depends on my own exposure.

It does!   And the music business is also keenly aware that it depends on if you connect with the player/singer/artist as a person.  Young, handsome, beautiful, skilled with a back story containing struggle or adversity sells! 

[AROIOS]

1 hour ago, JoJoB3 said:

...while McDuff runs/plays those same scales but in a musically pleasing, soulful and adult way...

See, you're now speaking of the same elusive qualities of "soulful" and "adult" (whatever that means 😃) that Rudess allegedly failed to exhibit.

But when others felt that way about some of Collier's "complex but soulless" stuff, you opposed it.

So exactly what makes Collier more "Soulful" than Rudess? Could it be "Rudess Hater"s' lack of musical sophistication as CEB and ReeseKeys' reactions would suggest? 😃

[AROIOS]

1 hour ago, GovernorSilver said:

Somebody bring McDuff back from the dead, put him onstage with a Korg Kronos and make him jam on it.   Kronos will have to be taped up or otherwise rigged so McDuff will be forced to play synth tones only - no CX3 organ, no piano, etc.

 

Put Rudess on the other side of the stage with a vintage B3 and Leslie.

 

1...2..3.... Fight!

Music is not a competition! 😃

[analogika]

3 minutes ago, AROIOS said:

See, you're now speaking of the same elusive qualities of "soulful" and "adult" (whatever that means 😃) that Rudess allegedly failed to exhibit.

But when others felt that way about some of Collier's "complex but soulless" stuff, you opposed it.

So exactly what makes Collier more "Soulful" than Rudess? Could it be "Rudess Hater"s' lack of musical sophistication as CEB and ReeseKeys' reactions would suggest? 😃

 

Rudess hasn't managed to move me to tears. 

But again: "Like" and "Respect" and "Understand" are different things. 

[GovernorSilver]

31 minutes ago, AROIOS said:

Music is not a competition! 😃

 

Hey man don't be dissin Jordan, multiple time gold medal winner of the Notes Per Second race

 

 

[Tusker]

49 minutes ago, AROIOS said:

See, you're now speaking of the same elusive qualities of "soulful" and "adult" (whatever that means 😃) that Rudess allegedly failed to exhibit.

 

Take a close look at enclosures and other forms of melodic invention. Rudess does not exhibit much of that kind of melodic ornamentation, his approaches are more scalar and predictable.

[AROIOS]

29 minutes ago, Tusker said:

 

Take a close look at enclosures and other forms of melodic invention. Rudess does not exhibit much of that kind of melodic ornamentation, his approaches are more scalar and predictable. 

But doesn't enclosure itself quickly become formulaic and predictable?

[ElmerJFudd]

32 minutes ago, AROIOS said:

But doesn't enclosure itself quickly become formulaic and predictable?

It sure does.  It's another pattern in the tool kit that quickly develops into the vocabulary of a style.   Next thing you know, it's all about enclosures and then that is predictable.   But how enjoyable is music without predictions or expectations?  Sometimes it feels good or right to arrive at an expected place.  A detour would not be a surprise if you didn't already think we were going somewhere familiar.  

[CEB]

14 minutes ago, ElmerJFudd said:

It sure does.  It's another pattern in the tool kit that quickly develops into the vocabulary of a style.   Next thing you know, it's all about enclosures and then that is predictable.   But how enjoyable is music without predictions or expectations?  Sometimes it feels good or right to arrive at an expected place.  A detour would not be a surprise if you didn't already think we were going somewhere familiar.  

 

This is a shallow and infantile level of understanding.  But people have to start somewhere.  This is just another device.  Players internalize devices so we don't have to think about this stuff.  Application is playing what is in your head with no systematic thought.  Play the piano until the piano plays you.

 

Mushin no shin.

[ElmerJFudd]

2 minutes ago, CEB said:

 

This is a shallow and infantile level of understanding.  But people have to start somewhere.  This is just another device.  Players internalize devices so we don't have to think about this stuff.  Application is playing what is in your head with no systematic thought.  Play the piano until the piano plays you.

 

Mushin no shin.

Agreed.  However, the point is shared in response to the suggestion that there are players who only ever play scales up, down, or up and down or down and up in their melodic adventures.   I'm sure there are players who really like the sound of those patterns and use them more frequently than other devices.  So, I'm suggesting that it is just as possible that there may be players who for whatever reason spend their time using enclosures.  Of course, there are seemingly infinite patterns that can be developed and sequenced into melodic material to bring out what we want to hear.  I would imagine that most players would like to play freely, or at least seemingly freely to the listener - but this takes time and experience (both of which are elusive until you've had, well... time and experience).   

[JoJoB3]

4 hours ago, AROIOS said:

So exactly what makes Collier more "Soulful" than Rudess? 

One is more 'cottage' while the other more of a 'brie'.  No matter how it's sliced they're essentially cheese.

McDuff is a fine wine...or aged bourbon, both which help wash that cheese down.  McDuff can help one forget about the cheese altogether too (if done properly).
 

[RABid]

I'd rank him right up there with Al De Melia and Wynton Marsalis. Two more acclaimed, talented musicians that I cannot stand to listen to.

[AROIOS]

1 hour ago, CEB said:

This is a shallow and infantile level of....

No more so than your tirade against straw men or readiness to berate fellow forumites. 😃

 

Having a bad day? Hope whatever bothering you gets sorted out soon.

[Tusker]

17 hours ago, AROIOS said:

But doesn't enclosure itself quickly become formulaic and predictable?

 

 

 

Enclosures are an example of melodic invention that you hear in the McDuff clip. Jordan Rudess’ solos are typically more scalar. You asked what the difference was.

 

To rely on any one method is to become predictable. Of course. I hate to judge but your question appears more argumentative than insightful. But to take the question at its face:
 

Yes (by design) enclosures are less predictable than scales.
 

A note either has a relationship with the preceding note or it does not. Scales are built from adjacency, the simplest possible relationship (if you exclude repetition) and therefore the most predictable. They are great for setting up expectations. Enclosures are one method to create directional twists. Art is often about setting up expectations and then confounding them. How you do that is up to you.

Again, the McDuff example had more enclosures than you might expect to see in a Rudess solo. This thread is eating its tail and I’m out. Peace.

[elsongs]

Here's how I sum up Jacob Collier:

- Very talented musician.
- Much more impressive as an arranger than a composer (his cover tunes are amazing, his originals...meh)
- He looks like a muppet when he sings.

[cphollis]

As music is a sonic probe into our emotions, different people will always react in distinct ways to various musical approaches.  There is no standard, just what works.  

 

One personal example was ELP back in the day.  I loved Keith's keyboard shredding, although I had no idea what he was doing at the time.  Later in life, I could easily diagram what he was doing and why, and his solos became even more enjoyable.

 

I've come to realize that being successful as a musician means you've found enough people who enthusiastically respond to your sonic emotional probes.  And it doesn't matter what other people think.

[ElmerJFudd]

12 hours ago, RABid said:

I'd rank him right up there with Al De Melia and Wynton Marsalis. Two more acclaimed, talented musicians that I cannot stand to listen to.

I’m wondering if there is more than musical choices that are bothersome about Al and Wynton.  Is there bias created by personality, looks, backstory?  The same attributes record companies use when selecting one artist over another. 

[CrossRhodes]

19 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

  

 

I admit it, I get a little triggered when I read some of the comments about JC. I did hesitate before hitting the return key, then thought "F it." Maybe I should have expressed my thoughts in a simple phrase I've used before in this situation: "sorry but I gotta go with team Herbie and Quincy on this one!" 🙂 

 

I think it comes down to what we've listened to, studied, an enjoyed in our own musical journey. I grew up playing jazz and listening to Gil Evan's voicings on Mile's Sketches Of Spain. Herbie's arranging on the Prisoner and Speak Like A Child. Ivan Lins's and Dori Caymmi's chord progressions and voicings. I resonate with people that do interesting and unusal things with harmony. There's a documentary on JC (highly recommended, I'm gonna try and find the link before I post this!). Herbie is sitting in the studio as JC is laying down a track, asking in amazement, "what IS that chord?!" Herbie Hancock is surprised by a chord, lol! See, what many might call "complex", "too much", or "why does he need to do that", etc., I see as a jazz guy stretching out with a very imaginative and original approach. To see that's somehow a problem for some is... well, I just don't get it. So yea, it's frustrating reading those comments - what's wrong with me?! 🙂 

 

PS - this is the doc on JC: 

 

That was a good watch, thanks for sharing. I didn’t know the story of his first video that went viral. Imagine posting something online at age 19 (or any age really) that leads to Herbie Hancock and Quincy Jones to immediately reach out?!  He seems very grounded and genuine considering all of that praise and attention at such a young age.

[MathOfInsects]

Given how brilliant he is as a musician, it's kind of funny that JC first found success as a child actor. Crazy all that untapped potential that was in there.

 

There's so much talent out there. I'm glad we live in an age when some of the folks who might otherwise have ended up washing dishes while secretly harboring musical genius, can at least be heard and seen now. For better or worse social media is the great equalizer when it comes to distribution. One of my daughter's favorite songs for awhile was by a teenage singer-songwriter from overseas, who uploaded it as a youtube, and that youtube just happened to get seen by people beyond the girl's own family. Amazing times. 

[RABid]

5 hours ago, ElmerJFudd said:

I’m wondering if there is more than musical choices that are bothersome about Al and Wynton.  Is there bias created by personality, looks, backstory?  The same attributes record companies use when selecting one artist over another. 

Living in a rural area with no jazz radio at the time I bought their CD's based on Grammy nominations and critical reviews. I don't remember their pictures being on the cover, didn't bother to read those tiny CD liner notes to absorb any possible backstory, and the only personality CD's exhibit comes from the playing. It is the lack of emotion in their playing that really bothered me. I love listening to Dizzy. He is a master of noise, knowing just when to squeal, buzz or slur a note. Wynton plays jazz like classical. Every note with perfect tone, perfect timing, perfect conformity. Ironically I watched a video on this today. (see below) I have seen interviews with Wynton where he mimics others on trumpet and does it beautifully, but when he plays his own music he goes back to that classical style. It is like he knows all those tricks but he does not know how to apply them. Or maybe he just does not want to. Some music programs drill that out of you. When Sarah Belle Reid started talking about life as a trumpet major, not being allowed to pursue her own sound, and being chastised by her professors for wasting time composing, it brought back memories of my own foray into a major in music. 

 

 

 

[AROIOS]

10 hours ago, Tusker said:

...Of course. I hate to judge but your question appears more argumentative than insightful...

...Scales are built from adjacency, the simplest possible relationship (if you exclude repetition) and therefore the most predictable. They are great for setting up expectations. Enclosures are one method to create directional twists...

Sorry that my response came across that way. I was genuinely curious and your explanation is very informative. Thanks for taking the time to elaborate on the topic.

[AROIOS]

8 hours ago, elsongs said:

- Much more impressive as an arranger than a composer (his cover tunes are amazing, his originals...meh)...

You spoke my mind.