What Else Does a KB Really Need?

[ProfD]

No shortage of threads and posts either about unicorn KB products or nice to have features on the next product release. 

 

Sure. KB manufacturers could sell more product by doing the heavy lifting for their customers. Add every wishlist item. 

 

The *problem* is that customer demands never end. A sound or features still seems to be *missing* with each product release. 

 

At some point, musicians have to consider that maybe the KB doesn't lack anything. It could be the end user.😎

[Stokely]

Nothing's ever perfect, especially anything mass produced for everyone.   One person's desired feature is another's annoyance... cars, grills etc Even if you find something close to perfect, now price might be the thing    For my needs, the Nord Stage 3 compact is as close as I've ever come, and it isn't close.  I don't need ultra-deep programming, nor sequencing, nor tons of splits and layers.   Someone needing those things would not like it!

Nothing wrong with seeking perfection as long as it doesn't stop you from playing/writing/having fun in the meantime.

 

[Finale]

 

[J.F.N.]

I definitely dig the concept of the AKAI MPC platform, just grabbed a Key 37 and I am quite impressed so far. Before, ie. with the pre Key version MPCs, I do belive these machines had a stigma of being a beatmaker's tool only, and I am very sure InMusic opened up a wide new customer segment with the Key versions, now the MPC is a workstation "as we know them", ie. a keyboard with a full set of tools for composing, recording, etc. no matter if you do "beats" or compose whatever type of music, which can be customized for Your needs, with software (Instruments and Plugins), on top of its core - being a very powerful sampler.

 

With this in mind, a great concept for a "Unicorn" keyboard, would be a stable standard hardware platform with the option to upgrade the components in the future with standard components. Think Korg's Oasys platform, which derived into the Kronos/Nautilus, there are creative people who hacked that limited Mini ATX Atom platform and upgraded it to an Intel I-series platform instead making it a fair bit more powerful. Pretty much what Ableton has done with their stand-alone version of Push, an upgradable platform making it somehow future proof, apparently you can buy it without the stand-alone hardware, and even grab an upgrade kit later on if you develop the need.

 

To make this work, a stabile operating system contained and maintained by the manufacturer is crucial, though to make it really interesting, a public SDK providing the possitibility for any software developer to develop modules for it (KORG *Logue, VST/AU etc. in mind...) would definitely provide the prerequisits for building an interesting and potent eco-system, which potentially would open up for something extremely versatile that could be configured to everyone's needs and wet dreams!

 

[johnchop]

I’ve been thinking the same thing re: the Astrolab.

 

It’s not trying to be a workstation.

 

It’s not trying to be a programmable synthesizer.

 

It’s literally what they say it is: a way to play Analog Lab sounds (ok, minus a few instruments) without a computer.

I appreciate the simplicity of that concept, because sometimes I just want to play, tweak a few parameters and not get lost in features.

We are spoiled for choice right now.  If you can’t make music on what’s available these days, well….

 

 

[cphollis]

As a keyboard player, the last thing I need is "more sounds".  Instead, I need help doing more with the sounds that I have.

 

A forest of control pedals has started to sprout beneath my rig -- alongside pitch sticks, mod wheels and aftertouch -- that shapes the sounds I'm using.

 

I find myself putting much more effort into sound shaping vs the playing of notes.  I know those XYZ positional head controllers look goofy, but I think that's my next step.

 

https://www.tecontrol.se/products/usb-midi-breath-bite-controller-2

[ProfD]

7 hours ago, johnchop said:

We are spoiled for choice right now.  If you can’t make music on what’s available these days, well….

Exactly.

 

The truth is...we've been spoiled by choices for a very long time now.

 

Listen to the amount of creativity and originality that went into the music of yesteryear using *limited* tools by today's standard.

 

Interestingly, a huge part of modern instruments is trying replicate to  acoustic piano, electromechanical KBs, synths and orchestral instruments. Same goes for trying to capture the flavor of hit songs from the past. 

 

Modern KB instruments manufacturered within the past 3 decades or so provide musicians and composers with a reasonable facsimile of every sound required to play and/or compose music.

 

Wishing for a more realistic [instrument sound here] or performance features or lighter-weight is the gear equivalent of kicking a can.

 

Faster boot and load times make sense. Especially if that particular slow azz KB is one's primary instrument onstage.🤣

 

Otherwise, there's no shortage of talent and musicianship today. Missing is the creativity and originality especially in terms of sound and voice.

 

Again, I don't believe KB technology is to blame for any real or perceived shortcomings we hear in music production or performance.😎

[CEB]

There are definite option holes in current keyboards that manufactures don't get.  These however are not the things that other keyboardist bitch about.  So my assumption is most keyboardist do not approach live performance the way I do.  They must carry two board rigs but not use at the same time.

 

The Kronos almost got but didn't implement adequate pedal I/O.   Kurzweil seems to understand live control needs but their patch management is poor.

 

Korg SetList combined with the ability to route one CV pedal to expression/volume then route a 2nd to modulation/filter/pitch etc .... and one additional foot swtich would have been perfect.  That would let me assign and increment and decrement pedals at the same time.  

 

Live both hand are busy playing.  Either there are a lot of one handed players or guys are playing couple of sounds and that is it.

 

And yes I said CV pedals because that is what they do.  Only today they control micro voltages. 

[Ibarch]

Rather than cutting new ground and inventing new things, keyboard advances have been focused on doing more with the same board. 

 

The latest workstations have multiple types of synths, organs, electric pianos and sampled instruments that were all available as separate instruments in the past. Rather than Rik Wakeman style  banks of keyboards on all sides, it is now possible to do everything from a single board to a reasonable proximity of the real thing. 

 

It's similar to how smartphones developed, swallowing in entire categories of devices like cameras and the Walkman. 

 

Whilst speciality devices will continue to be made,  lots of features will become commodity level and gradually move down from workstations into all keyboards. 

[J.F.N.]

I don't see being a gearhead AND an active musician being any contradiction!

[AROIOS]

4 hours ago, ProfD said:

...Interestingly, a huge part of modern instruments is trying replicate acoustic piano, electromechanical KBs, synths and orchestral instruments...

Exactly, the obsession with replicating sound of "vintage gear", down to humming noise, is obscene.

We are holding tens of billions of transistors in our hands today, and folks are still dropping thousands of dollars for 50's tubes and electro-magnets? SMH.

[marino]

I've always known that I could happily make music for the rest of my life, using only my piano, my Integra7, my Matrix-12 and a computer. Incidentally, I'm not even playing live at the moment, so size and weight are not at stake.

 

However, I have a whole bunch of other synthesizers and keyboards. Why? Because I like them, because I am curious, and because we only live once. No other reasons needed.     

[ProfD]

13 hours ago, marino said:

However, I have a whole bunch of other synthesizers and keyboards. Why? Because I like them, because I am curious, and because we only live once. No other reasons needed.     

That is exactly what we should get out of our instruments.  Using it to facilitate our musical creativity and satisfy our curiosity.  You're in a great place.

 

However, for those who wish their KB(s) had a few more bells and whistles....🤣😎

[J.F.N.]

12 minutes ago, ProfD said:

That is exactly what we should get out of our instruments.  Using it to facilitate our musical creativity and satisfy our curiosity.  You're in a great place.

 

However, for those who wish their KB(s) had a few more bells and whistles....🤣😎

 

If there's not enough bells and whistles for what a player needs/wants there will always be something new, with more bells and whistles, to grab. It's not that there is any lack of tools on the market really, especially considering the option to run a Mac with Mainstage etc.

 

I love digital technology, it's great fun, we live in an amazing time with loads of amazing stuff going on, and reachable price wise most of it too, it's not like back in the days when Synclavier, Fairlight, EMU, were the dreams and only reachable if you managed to either rob an old rich lady, or get a BIG TIME record deal with a major label...

 

Today it's the other way around, I can't believe I have owned 3 Fender Rhodes (1 MkI and 2 MkII), 2 Hohner Clavinets (1 D6 and 1 E7) and 3 Juno 60s (one with a Kenton Midi in), and a lot of other "junk" that today are way too expensive for a one trick pony for most of us (thinking economically realistically...), but would definitely be fun to have still!

 

 

 

 

 

[Outkaster]

How about a god damned stand designed the right way?

[JamPro]

The truth is my keyboard skills and talents are where I stumble over limitations; not with the keyboard itself.  But when I am feeling held back by limitations, I always want to blame the keyboard first. 

To make matters worse, the keyboard manufacturers and retailers know people like me will spend money on a keyboard with lots of features rather than doing the work necessary to address the limitations of my playing.

 

 

 

[zephonic]

One thing that perplexes and annoys the heck out of me is that we still have to do file transfers with a flash drive in 2024.

 

There is a perfectly adequate direct USB connection for MIDI/audio that is also capable of handling file transfers, but no. Inexplicable.

 

The interesting thing is, my old Fantom X7 from 2004 (!) could do file transfers over USB. You had to switch protocols between MIDI and transfer, you couldn't do both at the same time, but it was possible. 

[David Emm]

1 hour ago, JamPro said:

The truth is my keyboard skills and talents are where I stumble over limitations; not with the keyboard itself.  But when I am feeling held back by limitations, I always want to blame the keyboard first. 

To make matters worse, the keyboard manufacturers and retailers know people like me will spend money on a keyboard with lots of features rather than doing the work necessary to address the limitations of my playing.

 

Well, you know the fix for that! 😛Just off-hand, you sound like someone who is at the loose middle of their keyboard journey. First, you're an utter noob, with the corresponding fumbles. Then you reach a point where you wonder if its the tools. After that, you eventually, hopefully, find your own voice. For some, its a mega-Nord, because they're live band members and that fits the show to a T. For me, it was realizing that I wasn't up to much serious live performance. Around that same time, I took up Logic at version 8, when, IMO, it hit its first stride in being readily approachable. It was what I needed the most.

 

If you're worrying about it, you already have at least SOME knowledge of what things are about. That's a plus. Another is realizing that your GAS is stepping on your better instincts. There's no Synth Fairy floating over you with a stick, waiting to whack you for a misstep. Sounds like you have decent enough gear that you can push the shinier features aside for now and beef up your playing. More precisely, partition your time between figuring out just one more feature and actually playing. That's the proven method for reaching the right plateau and leaving a lot of mechanical worries behind.

[Finale]

5 hours ago, zephonic said:

One thing that perplexes and annoys the heck out of me is that we still have to do file transfers with a flash drive in 2024.

 

The Kronos handles FTP, I use that since day one, very quick for backups too.

[zephonic]

2 hours ago, K K said:

 

The Kronos handles FTP, I use that since day one, very quick for backups too.

 

Did not know that. Over USB? Or what connection? The Nautilus does not.

 

More and more I regret not getting a Kronos when they were still current.

[Shamanzarek]

One feature I use frequently that almost no keyboard I know of has is Envelope, filtering, and repeat functions on organ sounds. I go back to playing home organs like Lowrey and Wurlitzer that had a sustain function. The Lowrey also had a repeat feature as well as a 1/2 step downward bend activated by moving your foot to the left against a switch on the swell pedal. So far I have found one keyboard that can do most of this and it is not a Nord or any other multi-thousand dollar modern keyboard. That one keyboard is an older Casio WK series which I suspect none of the novice owners even know of this capability. The Nord does does very good Tonewheel, Farfisa, and barely passable Vox Continental. The Casio does passable Tonewheel but excels at other types of organ sounds. You can control Attack, Release, Filter Cutoff, Resonance, Modulation, and add various effects to simulate other organs and multi-harmonic synth-like sounds. Unlike a Nord you can set the exact split point and each side of the split can be layered without limitations as to which section is used. You could layer two synth sounds on each side of a split and detune one as desired. The Casio was only $300 and the Nord was more than ten times that. Admittedly the acoustic pianos are better on the Nord but I prefer the Casio EPs and it has some great editable synth sounds the Nord can't come close to doing. Maybe most players wouldn't miss these features but I do and have to keep using an older cheap keyboard to get them. If anyone knows of another keyboard that can do most of these things please let me know.

[ProfD]

4 hours ago, Shamanzarek said:

One feature I use frequently that almost no keyboard I know of has is Envelope, filtering, and repeat functions on organ sounds.

 

So far I have found one keyboard that can do most of this...an older Casio WK series....was only $300...Maybe most players wouldn't miss these features but I do and have to keep using an older cheap keyboard to get them.

Excellent example of finding the right *tool* for the job. 

 

Higher cost KBs don't automatically equate to the best sounds and/or desired features and functionality.😎

[kenheeter]

I have several keyboards, all quite different from each other and I just take out whatever best suits the gig. It's good to have choices.

 

[AROIOS]

"What Else Does a KB Really Need?"

A singing Susie Diamond

[Chummy]

On 6/23/2024 at 4:58 PM, ProfD said:

No shortage of threads and posts either about unicorn KB products or nice to have features on the next product release. 

 

Sure. KB manufacturers could sell more product by doing the heavy lifting for their customers. Add every wishlist item. 

 

The *problem* is that customer demands never end. A sound or features still seems to be *missing* with each product release. 

 

At some point, musicians have to consider that maybe the KB doesn't lack anything. It could be the end user.😎

 

If you mean skill over gear then I'm 200% behind you. 

A keyboard with 2 sounds is twice as versatile than a piano. Add a MIDI output into the equation and it's infinitely as versatile.

 

That being said,

I think many people here would say : "If *I* were to design a keyboard I'd create the perfect keyboard, I'd put it the best sounds with the best action, the most user friendly interface while compromising as less as possible on the quality while still managing to get it under 10 kilos so it'd be the ultimate gigging machine..."

 

Well, yeah, but companies are not one-man dictatorships unfortunately (or fortunately?). Even Yamaha, Behringer and the likes who does receive user input and implement feedback from pro musicians in their software updates etc. still have commitees and a lot of red tape to answer for, different teams doing different R&D, and these constraints sometimes come at the expense of putting out the best product possible. The late Dave Smith had it easier for this reason, which is why he was so successful in his niche and could virtually do whatever he wanted.

 

My personal preference:

Overall I'm still disappointed that also no company as far as I'm aware (I could be wrong) has released the following keyboard ^ which I described earlier ... when strictly refering to pro stage / gigging boards category, in the higher price range I'd like to see super premium action, super premium sounds, user friendly or knob per function interface yet made out of lightweight materials.

 

Picture a Yamaha Montage M sound engine inside a MODX+ plastic chassis, with a Fatar TP-8 or FSX keybed and a CK61 user interfance basically...

[Malcs Myth]

On 6/26/2024 at 7:05 PM, Shamanzarek said:

One feature I use frequently that almost no keyboard I know of has is Envelope, filtering, and repeat functions on organ sounds. 

 

Kurzweil’s can do chord repeat, it’s a setting called “Simultaneous” in the arpeggiator.

I’ve used it for the repeating chiff chord in Genesis Mama for example. Because the repeat comes from the arpeggiator it can trigger any sound, e.g. Wurly, Organ, synth etc. The arpeggiator used to be available only in Multi mode  but now on recent models (Forte, PC4 and K2700) it can be part of the actual Program itself, i.e. saved with unique settings.

 

For organ sounds with filter and envelope controls, the Kurzweil gives you some organs made with VAST (as opposed to the dedicated KB3 organ mode), which you can assign to controls for whatever you want, e.g. slow attack times. I’ve used it to make glassy-sounding organs.

 

My friend had a cheap Casio synth (I think an XW) which had a couple of wonderful synth sounds, in particular a surprisingly good lead for The Voice by Ultravox. It “cut though” without being annoying on its own - a lesson I applied to my own sound programming.

[Shamanzarek]

I will have to take another look at Kurzweil. I wasn't happy at all with the organ sounds in the PC2 I had so have avoided Kurzweil for many years. On the Casio you can just run the organ and all sampled sounds through the synth section and adjust as desired. On the Nord you can apply synth functions to samples but not to organs or pianos. Seems it wouldn't have been too difficult to route those sounds through the synth. 

 

As for the Casio XW-P1 I have wondered if it has the capability of processing the organ through the synth. I have never seen one of these any place where I could check it out and now it is discontinued. I have a friend in another state who has one and I have asked him to see if it can do what I'm looking for. Unfortunately, he is not knowledgeable enough to figure it out even though I have described what to do.