When AI Takes Over, Maybe Human Music Will Return to What It Always Was

[Anderton]

This comment from Analogika in a different thread is too provocative not to have its own thread:

 

Just saw an interview snippet with Trent Reznor on music streaming, and he phrased it thusly: 

"I think that people just want to turn the faucet on and have music come in. They're not really concerned about all the romantic shit I thought mattered." 

 

We always thought music mattered to most people the way it matters to us. Most people don't give a shit, and most people never did.  

People didn't believe me 25 years ago, when I said that for the vast majority, "music" is something they switch on on a device on the windowsill when they walk in the office. It's interspersed with news and the odd interview. Occasionally, something familiar comes on; that's nice. 

This is also why A.I.-generated music will take over a large portion of the market (yeah, other thread, I know): in reality, most people just never gave a shit. 

[Anderton]

I think it's entirely possible that most people will be satisfied with "the look and feel" of music and not care that it sounds more or less like 72 billion similar songs. Will AI produce a Brandenberg Concerto or Sketches of Spain? Probably not, at least in the near future, but most people don't listen to classical or jazz music anyway.

 

I think music becomes more than background music only if tied in with a social movement. That happened with the 60s, the 70s, the 80s, and started to fizzle out in the 90s when grunge became a significant factor. It was a localized movement, not a world-wide one.

 

The only social movement I see these days is people being angry and upset about a huge variety of subjects. So, maybe the only music with a chance to make a difference to listeners will be Nu Punk. You heard it here first

[Anderton]

So that's one aspect. The other is that if it's impossible to support yourself by playing music, then people will play music only for their own satisfaction. I don't make music to make a living. Been there, done that. It was fun and profitable while it lasted. Eventually you reach a point where enough is enough. Doing music purely for myself is more fun that going to the CBS studios at 52nd street and playing a session for an alcoholic country and western singer making a comeback...or touring the backwaters of the USA.

 

But I'll NEVER say "enough is enough" about making music. I'm making kick-ass music that probably 99.9% of the people in these forums have never heard. Am I going to go out of my way to get more "engagement"? Why? I put it out there. If people want to find it, fine. If they don't, they won't know what they're missing so it doesn't matter whether they would love it or hate it.

 

Do I care about having more people hear what I do? Of course. The comments I get on my YouTube channel are immensely gratifying. But do I care enough to prioritize getting more people to hear what I do? No. I'd rather spend my time making music instead of marketing it, which as far as I can tell is the way the business works these.

 

Bottom line: Whether or not AI takes over won't matter to me, or the people who listen to my music. Should I care more about that?

 

 

 

[jazzpiano88]

My lament is that music isn't treated with respect anymore.    When I was growing up, I'd spend hours sitting in front of the record player console, mesmerized.

Later, any spare free time was occupied putting a record on the stereo and laying on my back on the floor listening and imagining whatever was inspired by the music.

 

I had friends who did this too.

 

I don't think anybody does this anymore (that I ever hear about).  

[KuruPrionz]

1 hour ago, Anderton said:

Bottom line: Whether or not AI takes over won't matter to me, or the people who listen to my music. Should I care more about that?

Might as well not care since it won't make any difference. Here in Bellingham we have a fairly lively live music scene with lots of players who just play and lots of audience members who just hang out with a good number of listeners. Not many using tracks or harmony widgets, etc. Most of it is real (good, bad or indifferent). 

I do both. I used to play evenings but it gets tiresome quickly. I was lead guitar in the Motown Cruisers for a couple of years and we played at least once a month at a nearby casino, that becomes a drag quickly. ALL slot machines are in C Major, I could hear them when we were playing and it was both glorious and profoundly annoying. The casino was on Federal land and allowed smoking, I hated that too. 

 

Now I mainly go to open mic nights, where there is variety and nobody plays for more than 3 or 4 songs. 

 

[Thethirdapple]

Quote

…load a piece of data into the memory, fetch a value from the memory, add two numbers together…

Such simple truth,

iteration or innovation,

where are we?

 

@Anderton, the insight you share is immensely appreciated.

 

I also wonder just how much “we” as in me, myself and I remain elastic in my ability to explore new paradigms. Be it in the music world, once again as before with midi. Now with the marketing of AI, or similarly as in long ago relics of graphic design going full CAD. Consider “vector art”, drawing a perfect circle by hand is a skill and had great value, then came along a computer program which I could PROMPT with rudimentary numbers and it makes a perfect circle… AI?

 

YUP, no real difference other than scale and application.

 

In the mid 1970’s, after watching my dad write entire programs on yellow pads of ruled paper during our vacations, to only come home and have to REWRITE the entire thing and then debug!?!? I wanted no part of that… In the early 90’s, my peers would regularly shit on me for using wysiwyg code editors, as if using only simple-text or notepad was being a real programmer. I would simply lean over and remark upon their use of photoshop… a wysiwyg editor, or if they were real programmers they could use “raw” pre post-script languages like i did as a teenager.

 

The automation of graphic design routines whether custom built or third party add-ons eventually became the bread and butter of photoshop and it has continued to bloat and provide “clickable” edits which in the past were tasks performed by skilled people and a highly regarded positions in art departments. All went downhill after layers were introduced, its all we needed…

And I don't know any sane person who wants to rotoscope frame by frame!!! But hey it was a highly skilled and well paid job…

 

So to me, this current round of automation MARKETING we call AI, is scary only in its unfettered scale and infiltration into our dailyness, but not surprising nor unforeseeable nor mysterious. Its exactly what has been the ongoing goal, to automate and commodify to the lowest value possible. EVERYTHING
 

There was a time when sampling, as music creation was poo-pooed, now nearly everything is sample based! The throwaway sounds of early drum machines are now the highly prized vintage gear which software tries to emulate.
 

Even old school fortran programmers had a brief renaissance in the early 2000’s… all hope is not lost for actual people creating music!

 

Subversive creative expression, we call art, whether music or otherwise is what we do best.

 

J’adore l’humanité, mais je deteste les gens

 

new phonemes for future allophones

 

 

PEACE

_
_
_

 

 

[Notes_Norton]

17 hours ago, Anderton said:

The other is that if it's impossible to support yourself by playing music, then people will play music only for their own satisfaction. I don't make music to make a living. Been there, done that. It was fun and profitable while it lasted. Eventually you reach a point where enough is enough. Doing music purely for myself is more fun that going to the CBS studios at 52nd street and playing a session for an alcoholic country and western singer making a comeback...or touring the backwaters of the USA.

To each their own.

 

I've been supporting myself by playing music for most of my life.

When I on 'stage' and put an instrument in my hand and/or the mic in front of my mouth, I'm transported into that place where there is no space or time. It's where there is no “me”, the music seems to flow through me, instead of from me, and the energy from the audience feeds me.

I am past retirement age, but I don't know what I'd do if I wasn't playing music live. Playing for myself is OK, but it pales in comparison to playing for a listener. To me, the music is incomplete if my ears are the only ones that appreciate it. 

 

Being a musician is not what I do, it's what I am.

Playing music in front of an appreciative audience is the most fun I can have with my clothes on.

 

I've known other musicians who got tired of it. And I have known others who played or will play until the very end. I guess there is no “one size fits all”.

 

If AI writes songs that sound like the others, it won't make much difference to me, after all, humans have been doing that for all of my life. As long as people want to hear them, and as long as I like them, too, I'll play them. 

When we were being groomed for Motown, Berry told us what he told everybody else, “Don't try to write anything different, write songs like those that are already hits.” Sounds pretty much like AI.

 

Now AI may never write something like a Shostakovitch symphony in my lifetime, and when I go to a concert, it's usually a symphony. It may never improvise like Stan Getz, so I won't go to an AI jazz jam anytime soon, either. But until I have to play something as boring to me as rap, I'm going to be up there playing it. Not to dis rap, it's an art form, but I'm not a word person and I need melody.

 

Notes ♫

[RABid]

So what is worse? ...

 

The increasing number of AI VST's that generate chord patterns, leads, bass, rhythms, etc...

 

Sample/sound packs that advertise "make your song with our packs which include chord progressions, leads and drum patterns designed to blend into production ready songs."

 

When I hit the random button on a generator, at least I listen, see if it is something I like or not, and decide when to hit the button again. With a sound pack I am limited to two or three chord progressions and a lead line that 1000 other people are working into a song. I could pull that lead into a sampler, chop it up, and make something new but a lot of people don't bother. There has already been multiple instances of people copywriting songs made with these packs and causing confusion in the courts.

[Anderton]

2 hours ago, Notes_Norton said:

When I on 'stage' and put an instrument in my hand and/or the mic in front of my mouth, I'm transported into that place where there is no space or time. It's where there is no “me”, the music seems to flow through me, instead of from me, and the energy from the audience feeds me.

 

I think there's a differentiation between players and composers. What you're describing happens to me in the studio. It happened to me playing live as well, and don't get me wrong, I love playing live. But for me, composng/recording doesn't come with the same kind of logistical downsides.

[Anderton]

1 hour ago, RABid said:

So what is worse? ...

 

The increasing number of AI VST's that generate chord patterns, leads, bass, rhythms, etc...

 

Sample/sound packs that advertise "make your song with our packs which include chord progressions, leads and drum patterns designed to blend into production ready songs."

 

I'd vote for the latter as being worse. I use algorithmic composition a lot in what I do. For example, I have a way to generate drum fills using Studio One's probability slider in the pattern generator, and note shuffling. I do the same as you - initiate the macro a few times, and when there's something cool, I keep it. But the fills are based on a note framework I created, using a macro I wrote, whose suitability I determine, with edits I create if needed. So I see it as more of an interactive experience compared to pulling loops from a "make these dope hit beats with this dope hit MIDI pack."

[KuruPrionz]

7 hours ago, Thethirdapple said:

Such simple truth,

iteration or innovation,

where are we?

 

@Anderton, the insight you share is immensely appreciated.

 

I also wonder just how much “we” as in me, myself and I remain elastic in my ability to explore new paradigms. Be it in the music world, once again as before with midi. Now with the marketing of AI, or similarly as in long ago relics of graphic design going full CAD. Consider “vector art”, drawing a perfect circle by hand is a skill and had great value, then came along a computer program which I could PROMPT with rudimentary numbers and it makes a perfect circle… AI?

 

YUP, no real difference other than scale and application.

 

In the mid 1970’s, after watching my dad write entire programs on yellow pads of ruled paper during our vacations, to only come home and have to REWRITE the entire thing and then debug!?!? I wanted no part of that… In the early 90’s, my peers would regularly shit on me for using wysiwyg code editors, as if using only simple-text or notepad was being a real programmer. I would simply lean over and remark upon their use of photoshop… a wysiwyg editor, or if they were real programmers they could use “raw” pre post-script languages like i did as a teenager.

 

The automation of graphic design routines whether custom built or third party add-ons eventually became the bread and butter of photoshop and it has continued to bloat and provide “clickable” edits which in the past were tasks performed by skilled people and a highly regarded positions in art departments. All went downhill after layers were introduced, its all we needed…

And I don't know any sane person who wants to rotoscope frame by frame!!! But hey it was a highly skilled and well paid job…

 

So to me, this current round of automation MARKETING we call AI, is scary only in its unfettered scale and infiltration into our dailyness, but not surprising nor unforeseeable nor mysterious. Its exactly what has been the ongoing goal, to automate and commodify to the lowest value possible. EVERYTHING
 

There was a time when sampling, as music creation was poo-pooed, now nearly everything is sample based! The throwaway sounds of early drum machines are now the highly prized vintage gear which software tries to emulate.
 

Even old school fortran programmers had a brief renaissance in the early 2000’s… all hope is not lost for actual people creating music!

 

Subversive creative expression, we call art, whether music or otherwise is what we do best.

 

J’adore l’humanité, mais je deteste les gens

 

new phonemes for future allophones

 

 

PEACE

 

Great post! I'm not sure about everywhere else beyond Bellingham although a good friend in Fresno CA does keep me posted on that scene. It appears to me that the basic "structure" of pop music in general has always been pretty "formula-based" and as a cultural icon that is unlikely to change. What does change constantly is the sound of the instrumentation, the signature licks that are played and most of all the vocal performances and lyrics. "Electronica" may very well be just another phase, it isn't the first time it has come and gone. Keyboards have become much more complex and capable but an acoustic piano or guitar have not changed and won't change. Some singers try to sound like other performers but so many sing just like themselves and have a distinctive sound and style. This ain't over yet, not even close!!!

[GovernorSilver]

When Beck chose to release the Song Reader album as sheet music instead of on the usual media, it was a reminder of a time before the phonograph was invented - if people wanted to enjoy the latest "hit music" of their day, they had to buy the sheet music for it and play it themselves on their own pianos.

 

That's what Craig's post made me think of.

[ElmerJFudd]

So a mass body of inconsequential music is forthcoming from AI.  But musicians - we are our own best consumers of music - will continue to prefer and search for artists and music that matters to us.  
 

At least for the short term - where we obviously can tell the difference and recognize what isn’t “real”.   I don’t think we’ll be alive long enough to meet an AI that has a life and experiences we would want to hear about.  

[David Emm]

7 hours ago, Anderton said:

I'd vote for the latter as being worse. I use algorithmic composition a lot in what I do. For example, I have a way to generate drum fills using Studio One's probability slider in the pattern generator, and note shuffling. I do the same as you - initiate the macro a few times, and when there's something cool, I keep it. But the fills are based on a note framework I created, using a macro I wrote, whose suitability I determine, with edits I create if needed. So I see it as more of an interactive experience compared to pulling loops from a "make these dope hit beats with this dope hit MIDI pack."

 

Tripping through synth sound expansion packs is a guilty pleasure. Sure, I encounter all too many seeming keepers. Part of the challenge has been to enjoy the session, but also not make a Favorites list 150 patches strong and expect it to go anywhere. The gods forgive my arrogance, but I can relate to Tony Banks saying "People brought me new synths all the time and each of them had at least 3 or 4 good songs in them." That's the bell I enjoy ringing when I buy another patch set.

 

Otherwise, I create the majority of my own beats & loops. Or, by example, I found an arp I liked using a bland sound, so I dropped the MIDI data into another track and found a better sound for it. Then I applied it to a drum kit, cut out half of its drums and played some counterpoint over the now less busy material. I apologize to nobody for a tweaked percussion track that's 2/3 Me. The CR-78 is a dignified secret weapon in its simplicity. Anything that challenges you to bring out your best is a winner.

[Notes_Norton]

20 hours ago, Anderton said:

I think there's a differentiation between players and composers. What you're describing happens to me in the studio. It happened to me playing live as well, and don't get me wrong, I love playing live. But for me, composng/recording doesn't come with the same kind of logistical downsides.

You are exactly correct.

 

It happens to me on stage, and in the recording studio, too. 

 

I'm a very good player, a good improviser, a decent arranger, but not a good composer. I've never written anything that I liked, especially lyrics. When I write, the chord progressions sound so standard, not bad, but not great either. Melody sometimes comes out good, sometimes not, and that's expected. But the words sound too corny. Probably because when listening to music, the words are the least important thing for me to hear.

 

But I haven't really put enough time, effort, and dedication to writing songs. I did close to 25 gigs last month, I'm learning new songs requested by customers, and I do my own tracks. I'm having a great time doing all this, and it's my passion. If AI writes decent songs, I'll be happy to play them. But since my love for song writers goes back to the Gershwins, Tin Pan Alley, Brill Building and others, I'd really rather support live people.

 

Notes ♫

[ProfD]

For every generation, music has always been a consumable experience that most people eventually outgrow.  Musicians and music enthusiasts last longer.

 

The music industry as a commodity capable of feeding millions of people is less than 100 years old.  That machine is slowly dying.

 

Over the past several decades, 1) competing forms of entertainment and 2) technology have led to music that is disposable.   AI will produce more of the same.

 

However, there will always be artists and musicians capable of producing music that folks within their generation are willing to consume.

 

As I've mentioned before, I believe that it will come full circle to live performance being the primary venue for the *best* musical experience. 

 

In the future, artists and musicians may not play to hundreds or thousands of adoring fans.  But, they will be able to perform wherever humans socialize.

 

I've loved the sound of music for as long as I can remember.  There's no shortage of recorded music that I can pull up, listen to and dig too. 

 

At this point in life, I get far more enjoyment out of whatever music comes out whenever I sit down and play piano and the response from whoever is listening.

 

Music is what it has always been...a display of talent and creativity and a listening experience.😎

[Notes_Norton]

I've played just about any venue a musical can. From seedy dives to big concerts and everything in between, cruise ships, weddings, condominiums, yacht/country clubs, singles bars, show clubs, grand openings, private parties, and so on.

 

In a live performance, IMO, the musician(s) and the audience have a dialog with each other. We need each other to complete the circle. That's where the magic happens, and I hope AI doesn't take that away from me in my lifetime.

 

Notes ♫

[ProfD]

17 hours ago, Notes_Norton said:

In a live performance, IMO, the musician(s) and the audience have a dialog with each other. We need each other to complete the circle. That's where the magic happens, and I hope AI doesn't take that away from me in my lifetime.

I believe your gig is safe because it's established.

 

It will take several years for AI to replace live music,TVs, DJs and karaoke nights.😎

[Philbo King]

I've thought about this a few times, like "what would music look like if there were no electricity?"

My guess is it would return to being acoustic music, and the audiences would need to be retrained to actually listen rather than trying to shout at each other over the music. 

 

I'm not optimistic it would work very well due to the increasingly common trait of people feeling compelled to speak every thought that crosses their minds.  But maybe I'm just a crabby old man... 🤣

[Notes_Norton]

2 hours ago, Philbo King said:

I've thought about this a few times, like "what would music look like if there were no electricity?"

 

My saxophones and flute would become stars, and could drown out those acoustic guitars  

 

 

 

Notes ♫

[David Emm]

I figured out pretty early on that I wasn't built to be a proper live player, but OTOH, I did a few shows with just a lone Korg 01Wfd and I got across. Audiences will roll with a lot if you keep it interesting. Its a high-wire act to play solo, but if you can tackle it, the relative rarity will act in your favor. With only a few square feet for your rig, you can still sound like a demigod. People will reward your bravery. They're largely aware of computers often being a part of music now, so you get points for your sheer nerve and grace under pressure. Its not a common sort of act, but the gear will go there more than ever.

[Anderton]

19 hours ago, David Emm said:

Its a high-wire act to play solo, but if you can tackle it, the relative rarity will act in your favor.

 

Working without a safety net is what I like best about playing live. Taking chances puts an edge on an event, and audiences can indeed feel that edge.

 

The best gigs I ever did were over in Germany with Dr. Walker and Air Liquide, because it was all about improvisation. Sometimes we sucked, sometimes we were great and so Walker had a major following. His fans had incredible FOMO because they never knew if the next gig was going to be mind-blowingly good, and they'd regret it hardcore if their friends said "Oh man, I can't believe you missed Saturday's show...OMG..." I felt extremely lucky that I could be a part of it. 

[ProfD]

21 hours ago, Anderton said:

His fans had incredible FOMO because they never knew if the next gig was going to be mind-blowingly good, and they'd regret it hardcore if their friends said "Oh man, I can't believe you missed Saturday's show...OMG..." I felt extremely lucky that I could be a part of it. 

Recorded music has always been like a  business card albeit one that made a lot of money once upon a time. 

 

An album or CD or download let fans know their favorite artist/musician/band had new music.

 

Live performances has always been where fans get a real experience. 

 

Funny thing...most live recordings will contain the audio and/or video of a performance but even they don't really capture the vibe and energy of being there.😎

[Anderton]

11 minutes ago, ProfD said:

Funny thing...most live recordings will contain the audio and/or video of a performance but even they don't really capture the vibe and energy of being there.😎

 

How true. I don't see any technology in the foreseeable future that would be able to do that, either.

[Notes_Norton]

On 4/21/2024 at 4:12 PM, Anderton said:

 

Working without a safety net is what I like best about playing live. Taking chances puts an edge on an event, and audiences can indeed feel that edge.

 

The best gigs I ever did were over in Germany with Dr. Walker and Air Liquide, because it was all about improvisation. Sometimes we sucked, sometimes we were great and so Walker had a major following. His fans had incredible FOMO because they never knew if the next gig was going to be mind-blowingly good, and they'd regret it hardcore if their friends said "Oh man, I can't believe you missed Saturday's show...OMG..." I felt extremely lucky that I could be a part of it. 

 

The best gig I had was playing in a jazz band.

 

The leader played with Ira Sullivan for a while, and settled down to teach jazz guitar and theory at the University of Miami.

 

It was all live, and heavyweight jazz stars would come by to sit in every once in a while. Players so great that I felt like I was faking it. Other players would come every week, some great, some good, and none were bad. I guess you have to be pretty good to show up at a jazz gig with your instrument.

 

Sometimes, the leader would call songs I didn't know, he and the keyboardist, who pumped bass with his left hand, would call songs I never played before. He'd call the key, and I could figure it out by the time my solo came, I'd give him a nod. We'd also play Real Book songs that most people knew. Other folks would come to sit in, and we had a great time.

 

The only problem was that it was on Sunday Afternoons only. 

It was during the time I had a day job, trying to see what normal was all about. I was a field engineer for a Cable TV manufacturer. I'd fly out Monday night to whatever system I needed to work on, work Tu. W. and Th. and fly back on the Thursday red-eye, so I could play on the weekends. 

 

It was fun playing 'art music' that I didn't have to depend on and not being in control, was living on the edge. It was an exciting gig, and a lot of fun.

 

But I found being normal for me was over-rated, so I ended the CATV engineer gig, and started playing music full-time again.

 

I'd rather play “Brown Eyed Girl” for the zillionth time, than be a wage-slave again. A bad day playing music is still better than a good day at any other job I can think of.

 

I went back full-time and never looked back again. In retrospect, it was the right decision and the best thing I could have done.

 

 

Notes ♫