Keys easier on arthritic fingers.

[MPN21]

I used to pound really hard with my left hand playing ragtime type of stuff.   It must have taken a toll on my fingers.   The arthritis in my left hand pinky got worse.        Last year a forum member suggested that I buy a Casiotone when I mentioned I was looking for a 73 key for gigs, travel, and the like.  I bought a Casio S1.   I began to use it more and my fingers are happier.    At the time, I should paid more attention to Anotherscott's posts on the Casio CTS-500.    I wanted more of the Casio S1 and just ordered a CTS-500.   It sells for  $379, but noticed that my favorite store B&H has it for $349.  Plus, I used their Payboo card so that they take care of the sales tax for me as long as I pay it off in the first month. 

 

I dropped the idea of getting a 73 key, but instead I am looking at the Korg Liano 88 for its semi-weighted keys due to my arthritis.   I have a Numa Compact 2x, but I think the keys are a little too short; uncomfortable to play pianistic pieces on it especially the black keys. 

[JoJoB3]

Maybe we're looking at this all wrong?
 

 

[DeltaJockey]

4 hours ago, MPN21 said:

I used to pound really hard with my left hand playing ragtime type of stuff.   It must have taken a toll on my fingers.   The arthritis in my left hand pinky got worse.        Last year a forum member suggested that I buy a Casiotone when I mentioned I was looking for a 73 key for gigs, travel, and the like.  I bought a Casio S1.   I began to use it more and my fingers are happier.    At the time, I should paid more attention to Anotherscott's posts on the Casio CTS-500.    I wanted more of the Casio S1 and just ordered a CTS-500.   It sells for  $379, but noticed that my favorite store B&H has it for $349.  Plus, I used their Payboo card so that they take care of the sales tax for me as long as I pay it off in the first month. 

 

I dropped the idea of getting a 73 key, but instead I am looking at the Korg Liano 88 for its semi-weighted keys due to my arthritis.   I have a Numa Compact 2x, but I think the keys are a little too short; uncomfortable to play pianistic pieces on it especially the black keys. 

This is a topic I've been thinking more about too.

 

I was going to post a thread at some stage myself, asking for opinions and strategies, but I know there has been many discussions in the past of this very issue.

I'm starting to feel the effects of ageing fingers, and am trying to assess the best strategy for the future to help slow down the progression. If I was not able to play piano in the future due to this I'd be absolutely devastated!

 

Your NC2X does have quite a bit of spring resistance, so may not serve you best with arthritic fingers. I can perhaps give you impressions and what I'm feeling that is sort of helping for me. But, I am very much in the, "not really sure what the best course of action will be for me down the track" mode. And I may be asking for advice around here as my individual circumstance changes. I'm not even sure if it's just arthritis I'm dealing with, and suspect soft connective tissue may be involved too, making it tricky to find the right balance of weight and resistance.

I too, have trouble with my left hand more than my right. Mainly because I tend to play bass octaves with thumb and pinky extended a lot. As it is, I've always suffered from a bit of hyper-extension in general, and when I hear some folk complain of not being able to comfortably reach just octaves, though I've got fairly small hands, I find many decades of practice makes it effortless  to reach at least 13 whole notes. I also tend to slam the bass with my little fingers a bit more than I should. The down side is the hands are not what they used to be.

In using semi weighted actions, I've found surprisingly, that they not only don't improve the situation, but can make the pain worse. I think it has to do with muscle "follow through" needed because of the lack of momentum it has, that a well balanced weighted action has in order to express a certain note length.

The action behavior that seems to allow my hands the most playing stamina, is still in fact a weighted action, but one that is free moving, with little to no damping, is counterbalanced so that the momentum is kept up with caressing keystrokes.

 

My acoustic grand gives my hands very little trouble at this stage, and I think for the reasons I've described. I also think the acoustic is less of a problem, because being only piano, the playing style doesn't require longer periods of holding down keys for sustain pads etc.

 

I own a number of instruments, and value the differences in actions. One of the reasons I keep all of them is because I find playing periodically on different feeling actions seems to help my hands by giving them muscular variety and a bit of a rest from same effort of one action.

 

It's why my favourite and least tiring actions to play of late are my Montage M8X GEX weighted, and my SL Numa Piano X GT for an uncannily similar feel.

They are both free moving, nimble and quite light weighting wise, mainly because the balance is good, as the keys themselves are quite solid.

Actions which are sluggish, though I have no trouble playing and expressing with them and like the feel of them, my hands just can't cope for too long on them anymore.

 

I haven't tried the Liano with arthritis in mind, but I did play a Kronos LS when they were first released, and didn't mind the feel, as I believe it's the same action as the Liano.

 

Not sure whether my ramblings and thoughts are relevant or of any use to you, we all experience these issues differently, but I just wanted to point out that their are so many variations in the feel of weighted actions that could also be potentially better for your fingers than some of the semi weighted 73's or 88's.

 

I'm indeed starting to wonder also, what I'm going to do in the long term.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Tom Williams]

I have a little bit of arthritis starting -- certain bend positions on my wrists can be quite painful -- but my problem is mostly wimpy forearm muscles.  I get tennis elbow pretty quickly, and have had my thumbs cramp into immobility while driving home from gigs.  The villain seems to be my PX-5S, which has a lovely sound but a pretty heavy (for me) action.

 

So now for piano I have gone with a Nektar Impact GXP88 controller to drive a MIDI channel in my PC4-7.  It's semi-weighted, almost identical to the Kurzweil.  I seem to be able to go all evening playing piano on it. 

[DeltaJockey]

28 minutes ago, Tom Williams said:

I have a little bit of arthritis starting -- certain bend positions on my wrists can be quite painful -- but my problem is mostly wimpy forearm muscles.  I get tennis elbow pretty quickly, and have had my thumbs cramp into immobility while driving home from gigs.  The villain seems to be my PX-5S, which has a lovely sound but a pretty heavy (for me) action.

 

So now for piano I have gone with a Nektar Impact GXP88 controller to drive a MIDI channel in my PC4-7.  It's semi-weighted, almost identical to the Kurzweil.  I seem to be able to go all evening playing piano on it. 

How do you find the keybed noise on the GPX88? I have a GPX61 which I purchased originally for portability with piano vst's, before I bought a Keystage. The Nektar does have quite good velocity response, but I find the key slap on it's up return to be quite loud. But then if you're gigging in a loud environment, maybe that's not a problem?

[Baldwin Funster]

Some guys are quite proud of being pounders. I hate letting piano players play my synth action boards because it's very likely the board will be pounded to bits. I'm not surprised hard piano players develop arthritis and repetitive stress injuries. OTOH most syth piano patches have like 3 levels of velocity and aren't going to have much nuance. High resolution midi seems to be not coming out anytime soon.

[DeltaJockey]

3 hours ago, Baldwin Funster said:

I'm not surprised hard piano players develop arthritis and repetitive stress injuries.

Yes in reading what you are saying, I realised my wording was a bit sloppy. I don't exactly slam my keys hard, in fact I keep them in great condition for many years.

For me the point is my technique in the left hand is often over extended for the finer fingers, rather than playing too hard. And I suspect that arthritis is becoming a problem for my playing, not really the cause of it.🤔

[JohnDoe]

I struggle with arthritis in hands and feet. I found that the Yamaha P-121 gives me less pain when playing and it also have USB to Host (MIDI).

Haven't tried it with my feet yet🦶🦶

[AnotherScott]

On 4/4/2024 at 7:49 PM, MPN21 said:

I dropped the idea of getting a 73 key, but instead I am looking at the Korg Liano 88 for its semi-weighted keys due to my arthritis.   I have a Numa Compact 2x, but I think the keys are a little too short; uncomfortable to play pianistic pieces on it especially the black keys. 

 

I find the Liano to be much better feeling than the NC2x. It does not push back as much, and it is more even from front to back (which probably addresses the black key issue). I do like the aforementioned Casio CT-S500, it is one of the best liightweight low-cost boards for playing piano... but I like the Liano even more (from that particular perspective). I recently played a gig with it, see this post. (Seems to be coming up a bunch lately!)

[marino]

This thread puts a finger on the wound... Since about 10 months I've been suffering from an arthritic disease linked, it seems, to my very serious psoriasis, and possibly a couple of other causes as well. By the time I resolved to have an MRI, it showed that the tendons in my right arm are damaged in two places. I am currently at my third cycle of expensive cures, since the first two showed no results. I made the mistake to postpone treatment, because I was committed to a concert and a couple of days in the studio to record an album; but I had to suspend the recording session and send everybody home, because I just couldn't play anymore. Not fun.

So it's been a couple of months without touching the piano at all. And I did buy a keyboard with a very light touch, in order to at least stay close to music, and compose. I got a Casio CT-S500, and for such a light and cheap keyboard, it sounds quite decent. The action - I hate it, but I have adapted to it, and btw it's the only instrument that I can play at the moment. Playing synt-action keyboards don't seem to hurt too much, either. I have also tried to play the Roland Integra 7 from an unweighted synth, but somehow the two didn't seem to connect, no matter how I tweaked the velocity curves. The little Casio is a nice compromise for what it is.

[DeltaJockey]

4 minutes ago, marino said:

Since about 10 months I've been suffering from an arthritic disease linked, it seems, to my very serious psoriasis, and possibly a couple of other causes as well.

I can relate to this. I've had psoriasis for many years, and wonder if psoriatic arthritis is also in the mix. Thankfully, I got on to it fairly early, and am on an expensive biologic which has been an absolute miracle cure for the skin, but worry about the connective tissue and my joints still.

I have good days where I can play almost any keyboard in comfort, then without warning other days, I last about 10 mins. In retrospect, I have wasted a lot of money changing hardware, only to have the symptoms catch up to me again😕

[marino]

3 minutes ago, DeltaJockey said:

I've had psoriasis for many years, and wonder if psoriatic arthritis is also in the mix. Thankfully, I got on to it fairly early, and am on an expensive biologic which has been an absolute miracle cure for the skin, but worry about the connective tissue and my joints still.

I have good days where I can play almost any keyboard in comfort, then without warning other days, I last about 10 mins. In retrospect, I have wasted a lot of money changing hardware, only to have the symptoms catch up to me again😕

 

Well, one of the doctors told me that in my case, when I resolve to do a biologic cure for psoriasis, the tendon damage should get better as well. I didn't take the plunge so far, because I have a kind of complicated health situation, and I don't want to risk to lower my immune defenses too much. At the moment I'm doing periodic infiltrations that should help cartilage reconstruction, and physiotherapy.

 

 

[DeltaJockey]

Yes, I would be wary of any immune suppressants like biologics if I had other issues to worry about too. At least biologics have the least side effects and are considered the safest compared to other immunosuppressant drugs. But there's always a risk with any of them. They don't even know what the long term health affects of them are because they haven't been around long enough.

When it comes to joint maintenance, I'm still finding being as active with lots of rest inbetween to help a lot.

 

Sadly, painkillers are occassionally my go to, for some stamina when playing piano. But the risk is worth it vs not playing!

[Tom Williams]

22 hours ago, DeltaJockey said:

How do you find the keybed noise on the GPX88?  But then if you're gigging in a loud environment, maybe that's not a problem?

It's never bothered me.  Of course, now that you've brought it up, I'll probably be miserable tomorrow.

 

Regarding the loud environment, it's been my quiet (no louder than mezzo forte) music room for a year and a half, even when I have a band playing there.   When I gig I use(d?) IEMs, so key-clack would not have been a problem anyway.

[DeltaJockey]

42 minutes ago, Tom Williams said:

Of course, now that you've brought it up, I'll probably be miserable tomorrow.

oops! sorry. 😬

 

I did think of trying a bit of felt under the "fallboard" edge above the back of the keys, as that's where it sounds like it's hitting. I know you said you had IEM's in, but I could here it with open back 'phones on.

it may also be down to my style of playing too, as playing slow or gentle passages isn't a problem, only faster staccato with quick key release.

[zxcvbnm098]

I seem to remember reading or hearing (can't remember which) that Leon Russell late in life toured with some kind of lightweight keyboard as he was coming down with similar problems? 

[MPN21]

7 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

I find the Liano to be much better feeling than the NC2x. It does not push back as much, and it is more even from front to back (which probably addresses the black key issue). I do like the aforementioned Casio CT-S500, it is one of the best liightweight low-cost boards for playing piano... but I like the Liano even more (from that particular perspective). I recently played a gig with it, see this post. (Seems to be coming up a bunch lately!)

Thank you for your confirmation on the Liano action.   Definitely I am getting a Liano.    I will have to request a special order for a different color.   Looking forward to my CT-S500 this Tuesday! 

[DeltaJockey]

I notice in Oz, Lianos are selling incredibly cheap at the moment.  Like about the equivalent of $300 USD.

[stoken6]

No 5-pin MIDI on the Liano. Do any other boards share the action?

 

Cheers, Mike.

[DeltaJockey]

1 hour ago, stoken6 said:

No 5-pin MIDI on the Liano. Do any other boards share the action?

 

Cheers, Mike.

I believe it's the same action as the Kronos LS

[D. Gauss]

On 4/4/2024 at 8:50 PM, JoJoB3 said:

Maybe we're looking at this all wrong?
 

 

 

 

Yup. i.e. years ago, there was a guy, i forget his name, up near the Canadian/NY border who used to play the piano with his penis. Definitely lessens the toll on the fingers, but...   

[DeltaJockey]

4 minutes ago, D. Gauss said:

 

 

Yup. i.e. years ago, there was a guy, i forget his name, up near the Canadian/NY border who used to play the piano with his penis. Definitely lessens the toll on the fingers, but...   

Well, he was a clever dick then wasn't he? 😁

[Jazz+]

I have a Casio CT-S1 and a Kawai ES120 

[MPN21]

On 4/4/2024 at 7:34 PM, DeltaJockey said:

This is a topic I've been thinking more about too.

 

I was going to post a thread at some stage myself, asking for opinions and strategies, but I know there has been many discussions in the past of this very issue.

I'm starting to feel the effects of ageing fingers, and am trying to assess the best strategy for the future to help slow down the progression. If I was not able to play piano in the future due to this I'd be absolutely devastated!

 

Your NC2X does have quite a bit of spring resistance, so may not serve you best with arthritic fingers. I can perhaps give you impressions and what I'm feeling that is sort of helping for me. But, I am very much in the, "not really sure what the best course of action will be for me down the track" mode. And I may be asking for advice around here as my individual circumstance changes. I'm not even sure if it's just arthritis I'm dealing with, and suspect soft connective tissue may be involved too, making it tricky to find the right balance of weight and resistance.

I too, have trouble with my left hand more than my right. Mainly because I tend to play bass octaves with thumb and pinky extended a lot. As it is, I've always suffered from a bit of hyper-extension in general, and when I hear some folk complain of not being able to comfortably reach just octaves, though I've got fairly small hands, I find many decades of practice makes it effortless  to reach at least 13 whole notes. I also tend to slam the bass with my little fingers a bit more than I should. The down side is the hands are not what they used to be.

In using semi weighted actions, I've found surprisingly, that they not only don't improve the situation, but can make the pain worse. I think it has to do with muscle "follow through" needed because of the lack of momentum it has, that a well balanced weighted action has in order to express a certain note length.

The action behavior that seems to allow my hands the most playing stamina, is still in fact a weighted action, but one that is free moving, with little to no damping, is counterbalanced so that the momentum is kept up with caressing keystrokes.

 

My acoustic grand gives my hands very little trouble at this stage, and I think for the reasons I've described. I also think the acoustic is less of a problem, because being only piano, the playing style doesn't require longer periods of holding down keys for sustain pads etc.

 

I own a number of instruments, and value the differences in actions. One of the reasons I keep all of them is because I find playing periodically on different feeling actions seems to help my hands by giving them muscular variety and a bit of a rest from same effort of one action.

 

It's why my favourite and least tiring actions to play of late are my Montage M8X GEX weighted, and my SL Numa Piano X GT for an uncannily similar feel.

They are both free moving, nimble and quite light weighting wise, mainly because the balance is good, as the keys themselves are quite solid.

Actions which are sluggish, though I have no trouble playing and expressing with them and like the feel of them, my hands just can't cope for too long on them anymore.

 

I haven't tried the Liano with arthritis in mind, but I did play a Kronos LS when they were first released, and didn't mind the feel, as I believe it's the same action as the Liano.

 

Not sure whether my ramblings and thoughts are relevant or of any use to you, we all experience these issues differently, but I just wanted to point out that their are so many variations in the feel of weighted actions that could also be potentially better for your fingers than some of the semi weighted 73's or 88's.

 

I'm indeed starting to wonder also, what I'm going to do in the long term

Thanks for your post.  I will definitely look for past discussions about the finger issue.   Yes, I will probably ditch my NC2x and replace it with a Korg Liano.   A fellow musician's wife is a retired surgeon.   She said I should see a hand specialist.   I might do that down the road, but since I don't use my left hand pinky on heavy action, it has gotten so much better.  Watching my diet/supplements seemed to help a lot, too.   In my case, it seems to be just wear and tear.   So playing on a light action like the Casio S1 is much easier on my pinky.