Korg Keystage

[Paul Woodward]

7 hours ago, DeltaJockey said:

Actually, I have no idea. When I get a chance I'll have a bit of a look. Wouldn't it just merge with midi in USB? Without looking, I'm guessing they appear as separate ports in the MIDI setup app. I don't have an application for midi in atm.

I'm home now, will try it myself later. A limit of the YC and CK was you had to choose midi out over DIN or USB, not both.

[Paul Woodward]

I can only assume that it sends midi in to midi out as there was no output to the iPad over USB. It would help if this was explained in the manual. unfortunately, I don’t have a second midi device to check this.

On a positive note, it accepted a Roland damper pedal as long as it’s plugged in before you turn on the board, so that saves me buying another damper pedal 🙂

[AnotherScott]

2 hours ago, Paul Woodward said:

I can only assume that it sends midi in to midi out as there was no output to the iPad over USB.

Normally, data arriving at a board's MIDI IN is *not* echoed to any MIDI OUT, unless there is specifically a function to enable that (essentially allowing the OUT to also function as a THRU). 

[Paul Woodward]

10 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

Normally, data arriving at a board's MIDI IN is *not* echoed to any MIDI OUT, unless there is specifically a function to enable that (essentially allowing the OUT to also function as a THRU). 

Indeed, but as this board has little it can do with midi in data (no sound or automation), and it’s not sending that data over usb, what is the purpose of the midi in? If not echoed to midi out (DIN), I cannot see any use for it.

[Paul Woodward]

That spare slot on the back for the expansion plate (61 key), and the trailing wires was bugging me so.....

[DeltaJockey]

19 minutes ago, Paul Woodward said:

That spare slot on the back for the expansion plate (61 key), and the trailing wires was bugging me so.....

Did you laser print that?

[Paul Woodward]

11 minutes ago, DeltaJockey said:

Did you laser print that?

It’s just a 3D model. Need to check angles and tolerances, then it’s a quick 3D print.

[DeltaJockey]

oh ok.

btw I meant 3d print. You probably knew I meant that! Yeah good idea. I have my shelf on the right hand side because of the laptop. A centre hook for me could be handy.😀

 

Let me know how it turns out.

[Paul Woodward]

After a bit of more accurate measuring, dont think this will work out from a 3D print, even one done with 100% fill. Problem is, that flat peg that goes into the body of the keyboard is a decent length but because its metal plate, the slot it goes into narrows down to around 1.5mm. There is very little wiggle room and chances are this would just break off with a little force. On a positive note, this recess does not allow access into the body of the keybed so if it did snap off, you could just pull it out. Looks like this made to the right sizes...but fragile, although might make a decent little cast metal part. Peg could be made shorter seeing as its just holding a cable, or make it so a metal plate can be slotted into the plastic part...but we are getting carried away for something that will just hold a wire 😉 Better off cutting this flat from a piece of steel plate really. 

Oh well, it was fun to flex the CAD muscles for half an hour. Might run one off for fun next time I set up for a 3D print 🙂

 

[Paul Woodward]

Had a response from Korg UK about the midi:

"Hi Paul, The MIDI In/Out ports on the Keystage are designed so the Keystage can control/play other hardware units. Currently, data received through the MIDI In port cannot be routed to the USB MIDI port.

When both MIDI In/Out ports are connected to MIDI 2.0 device like the wavestate, for example, there will be directional communication between the devices and the controls on the Keystage will be automatically assigned to most commonly used parameters."

 

They then referred me to the manual which was not much help, but it seems that the midi in is only to connect to the device also connected to the midi out to make a bidirectional communication. I just assumed this was done via one cable.... Im still curious if Midi in goes to midi out and will see what they say about that, but I expect that midi port is just for some sort of future use.

Wouldnt really hurt to put that in the manual. It makes me fear that they might still be making this stuff up with Midi 2.0 as they go along 😞

[AnotherScott]

8 minutes ago, Paul Woodward said:

it seems that the midi in is only to connect to the device also connected to the midi out to make a bidirectional communication. I just assumed this was done via one cable.

USB is bidirectional (can send/receive over a single cable), 5-pin MIDI is not, you need one connection to send (OUT) and another connection to receive (IN).

[Paul Woodward]

18 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

USB is bidirectional (can send/receive over a single cable), 5-pin MIDI is not, you need one connection to send (OUT) and another connection to receive (IN).

So essentially, the 5 pin midi in is just there to recreate what USB midi can do assuming you are connecting hardware..much of which likely does not support MIDI 2.0....im puzzled.

They talk about the wavestate, so you need two midi cables to make use of the Midi 2.0 features of this with the Keystage? USB being for accessing software, but they have provided a way of connecting to both types at the same time??

With them saying this is the 'ultimate master keyboard', I would have hoped for a bit more standard midi control.

 

[AnotherScott]

2 hours ago, Paul Woodward said:

So essentially, the 5 pin midi in is just there to recreate what USB midi can do assuming you are connecting hardware..much of which likely does not support MIDI 2.0....im puzzled.

They talk about the wavestate, so you need two midi cables to make use of the Midi 2.0 features of this with the Keystage? USB being for accessing software, but they have provided a way of connecting to both types at the same time??

 

The important thing here is not just being able to bi-directionally directly connect to a 5-pin 2.0 MIDI device (e.g. Wavestate) at the same time, but to be able to connect to such a device at all. (If it only had USB, you would not be able to connect it to the Wavestate or other future 5-pin 2.0 devices unless those devices could function as USB hosts.)

 

 

2 hours ago, Paul Woodward said:

With them saying this is the 'ultimate master keyboard', I would have hoped for a bit more standard midi control.

You mean like sliders and buttons?

[Paul Woodward]

4 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

You mean like sliders and buttons?

No, just options like on other boards (that don't make such bold claims) that allow you to choose how midi data is routed to the various ports, output more than one channel etc.

It's not a deal-breaker as it does what I need, but they are pitching it for live performance and, on the current firmware, it feels like it's more studio focused other than the poly touch offering greater expression. Still, early days and they can add new features, just as all the wavestates have been made midi 2.0 compatible.

[DeltaJockey]

7 hours ago, Paul Woodward said:

Had a response from Korg UK about the midi:

"Hi Paul, The MIDI In/Out ports on the Keystage are designed so the Keystage can control/play other hardware units. Currently, data received through the MIDI In port cannot be routed to the USB MIDI port.

When both MIDI In/Out ports are connected to MIDI 2.0 device like the wavestate, for example, there will be directional communication between the devices and the controls on the Keystage will be automatically assigned to most commonly used parameters."

 

They then referred me to the manual which was not much help, but it seems that the midi in is only to connect to the device also connected to the midi out to make a bidirectional communication. I just assumed this was done via one cable.... Im still curious if Midi in goes to midi out and will see what they say about that, but I expect that midi port is just for some sort of future use.

Wouldnt really hurt to put that in the manual. It makes me fear that they might still be making this stuff up with Midi 2.0 as they go along 😞

I think that's perfectly logical. There'd be no other reason for a MIDI in DIN on a controller only. It's just an addition to support MIDI 2.0 devices with DIN ports I suppose.

Another reason why this controller is a bit more expensive than other run of the mill controllers. Cost of an extra port other controllers don't have.

Will be interesting to see if other manufacturers start following with similar products

[DeltaJockey]

On 3/15/2024 at 2:00 AM, Stokely said:

There's a note in the manual that the aftertouch can wear out?  Wow.  I owned a Virus that at the time was about 15 years old and pretty obviously used (if not abused) and the aftertouch worked great.  Granted, it was regular channel aftertouch.  If the manufacturer is admitting that up front that would have me worried.   

There doesn't see to be any complaints with any channel aftertouch tech, reliability wise. I have an 8 year old Kronos, and there's nothing wrong it's Channel AT. Likewise any other synths with ch AT I've had has never been an issue. My Summit, is as good as new, and the has reference feel for me deciding to purchase the Keystage. There's obviously been some practicalities with PAT on some synth actions. Look at Yamaha only releasing it on the GEX, I guess with some mileage already from the larger digital pianos. No one though, complains of Hydrasynth action failures. I don't recall anyone complaining about the Ensoniq PAT in terms of reliability, though it apparently was too touchy.

But the 80's synth keybeds were somewhat heavier and more robust in general.

It will be interesting to see how they stand up in the field.

 

[U.Honey]

The Keystage looks like a quality controller, and it looks good too. It's a little pricey though which I'm guessing has to do with MIDI 2.0. I'd be curious to know what "real life" features you can get with Midi 2.0 that you couldn't otherwise get? Not in the future but today? I'm thinking about playing live in particular. In other words, what ways could I take advantage of MIDI 2.0 in live gig situation?

[Paul Woodward]

It's a nice bit of kit. Midi 2.0 was more of a novelty for me. The built in audio interface/iPad integration and poly touch were what sold me. Ability to output over DIN and USB is potentially useful for live use.

[Reezekeys]

2 hours ago, DeltaJockey said:

There'd be no other reason for a MIDI in DIN on a controller only. It's just an addition to support MIDI 2.0 devices with DIN ports I suppose.

 

The A800 Pro is a controller only and its DIN midi in is pretty useful imo. You can merge data coming in through there with what you're playing on the keyboard and send the combined data out one of the USB midi ports or the DIN midi out.

 

The A800 also needs its DIN midi in if you connect it to a computer over a midi interface and want to use the editor software - bidirectional communication is required for the editor to work.

[Paul Woodward]

I used to connect via usb to use the editor...

[Reezekeys]

Yes, USB makes more sense - one cable & done. That's how I usually do it as well – with my newer A800. My older stay-at-home A800's USB is broken, so I'm pretty happy I have those DIN jacks - otherwise the unit would be good for parts only.

[AnotherScott]

The 5-pin In is sometimes useful on controllers, e.g. when the controller itself has presets that can be recalled via MIDI. Even though the board may be soundless, it can still have presets that include various controller assignments, split points, octave transpositions, MIDI channels, etc. So let's say you were using the controller with some primary board (MODX, Nautilus, Fantom, whatever), with the two connected over 5-pin. You might want to call up a patch on your main board, and have it simultaneously set your controller for how you want it configured for triggering some of the sounds in your main board.

[DeltaJockey]

2 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

 

The A800 Pro is a controller only and its DIN midi in is pretty useful imo. You can merge data coming in through there with what you're playing on the keyboard and send the combined data out one of the USB midi ports or the DIN midi out.

 

The A800 also needs its DIN midi in if you connect it to a computer over a midi interface and want to use the editor software - bidirectional communication is required for the editor to work.

Yes of course, I meant other than a MIDI merger, central routing point for other connected devices, if that's what you were inferring.  I remember in the early 90's building myself a MIDI switch/router rack mount unit. It was very very useful, and saved a lot of plugging in and out, and reconfiguring. I did elude to the MIDI in to USB functionality in one of my comments for the Keystage. Maybe a firmware update?

[Paul Woodward]

@DeltaJockey sorry to keep asking you, but I don’t know if anyone else here has the Keystage. Have you felt any real limitations with Wavestate LE and/or a need to upgrade? I can’t image the half polyphony and one instance would bother me much, but is there much to be gained from importing external libraries or your own waveforms? 
Just curious really.

[DeltaJockey]

15 minutes ago, Paul Woodward said:

@DeltaJockey sorry to keep asking you, but I don’t know if anyone else here has the Keystage. Have you felt any real limitations with Wavestate LE and/or a need to upgrade? I can’t image the half polyphony and one instance would bother me much, but is there much to be gained from importing external libraries or your own waveforms? 
Just curious really.

The thought of the limitation had crossed my mind. I haven't really played with it all that much, and probably won't seriously get an essential amount of use from it, but had decided I was ahead by being able to play patches without the Try nag screen first. I decided that if I really started leaning on it, buying the full version would be worth it.

I do find this new rack version of the hardware Wavestate appealing down the track. And I'm pretty sure if you buy a hardware Wavestate of some kind, like Yamaha with the new Montage, you get a free copy of the full Wavestate. This probably doesn't help your dilemma, but I'm also not worried about polyphony or one instance, and probably won't be importing any external libraries any time soon.

[StephenLL]

On the KeyStage, are the knobs continuous as in you can keep turning to the left or right and not stop?

 

I couldn’t figure that out from reading the manual. 
 

Thanks

[Paul Woodward]

1 hour ago, StephenLL said:

On the KeyStage, are the knobs continuous as in you can keep turning to the left or right and not stop?

 

I couldn’t figure that out from reading the manual. 
 

Thanks

No, they are rotary knobs with a fixed start and end point. It's a divisive choice for sure.

[AnotherScott]

46 minutes ago, Paul Woodward said:

No, they are rotary knobs with a fixed start and end point. It's a divisive choice for sure.

 

Yeah. Especially for a board that supports a standard for 2-way communication, endless encoders with LEDs would seem like a natural, it could keep the controls "in sync" with whatever compatible device it is connected to.

[Paul Woodward]

Korg confirmed that 'the MIDI data received through the MIDI In port cannot be sent to the USB MIDI Out or MIDI Out port (ie 5 pin DIN). The MIDI In port is primarily for bidirectional communication with MIDI 2.0 devices.'

Note its says 'primarily' but they offer absoutely no other use for it and nothing to say it can't be routed that way in a firmware update,especially if Roland can activate the audio interface on the new RD-08 at the drop of some dollar 😉 

On a more positive note, I tried the Keystage with Gadget (MAc and IOS) and its nice how you can change tracks, see them in the OLED display and that the main 8 dials are automatically mapped to key parameters/knobs in the each relevant gadget. I had played with the idea of using Gadget as a multitimbral unit rather than Korg Module and I can see how this might work now.

Also impressed how many gadgets you actually get in the 'producer' bundle. I think there are only 5 missing from the full set leaving quite a few gadgets (and more than the IOS version I think). Great that they are also added to Logic Pro as plug ins. Some of these are £10-15 each on IOS!

Thats a £300 piece of software and Wavestate another £200 which almost covers the cost of the board. Yes, somewhat limited versions, but not enough to make them useless and more than I need from them. A few Acoustic Audio Solutions plug ins offered as well.

Definitely having fun with it and the polytouch in Animoog Z is great.

[Paul Woodward]

A friend of mine has a laser cutter and is going to try that cable hook in 1.5mm metal plate which is the same material as the extension plate. Will see how it works out and maybe get a few made considering how small they are. Will certainly be a niche little object, but might make a decent enough little cable tidy for the 61 key version 🙂