Is there a list of common organ drawbar settings for common songs?

[davinwv]

2 hours ago, analogika said:

the point here is that every drawbar is a partial (harmonic overtone) of the fundamental note. (Yeah, the leftmost two belong to the subfundamental, bear with me for the sake of the explanation.) 

 

So you have drawbars that are the base note and its octaves (1st drawbar and all the white ones), and the others which are a perfect fifth or a major third above the base note. 
 

If you emphasise those and ease back on the octave partials, you can get the tone to sound like a different pitch (a fifth above the „played“ key: 2nd, fifth, and eighth drawbars, and the 7th drawbar for a third above the base tone). 
 

percussion can be switched in pitch between octave („2nd“) and perfect fifth („3rd“)

Thanks very much. I understand all of that, but I have been led to believe reading interviews, etc. that there are accepted drawbar settings (and accompanying transpositions) that lots of people use for this sort of thing. That's what I was wondering about.

[analogika]

2 hours ago, davinwv said:

Thanks very much. I understand all of that, but I have been led to believe reading interviews, etc. that there are accepted drawbar settings (and accompanying transpositions) that lots of people use for this sort of thing. That's what I was wondering about.

Ah, apologies for explaining stuff you knew. 
 

I always figure that „accepted“ is whatever you can sell. 
 

I rarely stick with „classic“ settings, because the same setting will sound different on every organ, Leslie, mic setup, room, weather, and personal mood. 

[MathOfInsects]

Not to ring too much of the same bell, but I think we can forget just how esoteric "using the overtone series" is a concept. Most people have never given this idea the first thought. Even if they know know it's a thing that exists, it doesn't really affect them as a player or consumer of music. Even a musician could work his or her whole career and never have to really think about it much, if at all.

Then, even if you know what it means or refers to, you'd be more than forgiven for not having the slightest idea what do with that knowledge when it comes to making sound with it. There is a HUGE amount of real estate between playing piano/keyboards, and becoming a specialist (or even a beginner/dabbler) in additive synthesis. 

When most people come here with this kind of question, IMO it's not usually because they don't or can't understand how to master the concept. It's because they don't really even know there's a concept to get. They are thinking of the organ as a keyboard and all they know is that there are some dials and knobs that help make sound come out of that keyboard but that none of them are labeled. Hunt and peck would set you on the path to something like 253,000,000 possible combinations of drawbar settings. They're here just asking for ONE to get them started. 

I think it's OK to give them their one. That still leaves 252,999,999 left over for the rest of us. 

[stoken6]

26 minutes ago, MathOfInsects said:

something like 253,000,000 possible combinations of drawbar settings

Sometimes I wish there were 888,888,888 possible combinations.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[MathOfInsects]

38 minutes ago, stoken6 said:

Sometimes I wish there were 888,888,888 possible combinations.

 

Cheers, Mike.

Dammit, Laurens, it was right there!

[davinwv]

22 hours ago, analogika said:

Ah, apologies for explaining stuff you knew. 

The reason I hang out more at VI-Control than I do here distilled down to one snarky remark.

 

Sorry to waste your time.

[MathOfInsects]

32 minutes ago, davinwv said:

The reason I hang out more at VI-Control than I do here distilled down to one snarky remark.

 

Sorry to waste your time.

I think this might be a misunderstanding. 

I read it to mean he didn't mean to be insulting by explaining below your level. 

Yes, there are some very common drawbar settings. Not everyone takes them as prescribed, but they will certainly put you in the ballpark for certain songs and vibes. Youtube and the web have hundreds of sources for these. None are "right" or "wrong," so you might as well try some of those out and see what your ear likes in different situations. 

[davinwv]

23 minutes ago, MathOfInsects said:

I think this might be a misunderstanding. 

I read it to mean he didn't mean to be insulting by explaining below your level. 

Yes, there are some very common drawbar settings. Not everyone takes them as prescribed, but they will certainly put you in the ballpark for certain songs and vibes. Youtube and the web have hundreds of sources for these. None are "right" or "wrong," so you might as well try some of those out and see what your ear likes in different situations. 

I'm talking about a very specific situation - I think some people call it "The Fifth Trick" - that I've not been able to crack.

 

I set drawbars with my ears and not my eyes all the time. I'm just looking for some info on this one technique/setting.

[analogika]

1 hour ago, davinwv said:

The reason I hang out more at VI-Control than I do here distilled down to one snarky remark.

 

Sorry to waste your time.

Zero snark intended. The content on VI control hasn’t seemed enough up my alley to actively participate, though I have an account there. 
 

But this place has always struck me as one of the less snarky and generally super-helpful and generous places on the web. 
 

It pains me a bit that what I thought could generally be at least slightly helpful would come across as me being an asshole, but I guess that happens in faceless text communication. 

[davinwv]

2 minutes ago, analogika said:

Zero snark intended. The content on VI control hasn’t seemed enough up my alley to actively participate, though I have an account there. 
 

But this place has always struck me as one of the less snarky and generally super-helpful and generous places on the web. 
 

YMMV. 

I guess I took your comment the wrong way as @MathOfInsectssuggested. Please accept my apologies. I guess that's the danger of reading versus speaking.

 

However, I have been a member here for 22 years, and I do sense a change in the atmosphere here lately.

 

Now, back on topic . . .

[analogika]

1 minute ago, davinwv said:

I guess I took your comment the wrong way as @MathOfInsectssuggested. Please accept my apologies. I guess that's the danger of reading versus speaking.

 

However, I have been a member here for 22 years, and I do sense a change in the atmosphere here lately.

 

Now, back on topic . . .

I’ve been here six years. I hope if any of the older-timers get the feeling that I’m contributing to a perceived deterioration of discussion culture here, I’ll get a stern talking-to (via PM). 😉

[MathOfInsects]

1 minute ago, analogika said:

I’ve been here six years. I hope if any of the older-timers get the feeling that I’m contributing to a perceived deterioration of discussion culture here, I’ll get a stern talking-to (via PM). 😉

You're one the sharper and more accomplished posters here and I'll give a talking to whoever gives a talking to you.

[bfields]

It's bad to be constantly asking questions without doing any homework first, but can also be bad to forever be thinking "oh there's one more piece of homework I should do before I'm worthy of asking a question".

 

And, believe me, there are a *lot* of people that err on the side of not asking when they should.  The fear of being embarrassed by a stupid question is powerful.  I'm sure anyone who's worked with students has witnessed the problems that can cause.

 

Forums give you a skewed view, you rarely hear from those folks....

[jazzpiano88]

Yeah, it's like the first time you call CQ.    You don't know who is going to jump down your throat if you make a mistake.    

Some people are VERY unwelcoming to newcomers or people asking for advice, and we know who they are. 

 

I'm surprised that VI-Control came up here as a model of virtue (pardon the Pun), given that that forum was nearly destroyed by financial malfeasance and it took a change of ownership to "supposedly" recover.

[MathOfInsects]

3 hours ago, bfields said:

It's bad to be constantly asking questions without doing any homework first, but can also be bad to forever be thinking "oh there's one more piece of homework I should do before I'm worthy of asking a question".

 

And, believe me, there are a *lot* of people that err on the side of not asking when they should.  The fear of being embarrassed by a stupid question is powerful.  I'm sure anyone who's worked with students has witnessed the problems that can cause.

 

Forums give you a skewed view, you rarely hear from those folks....

And also: asking for guidance from people here IS doing homework...

And also 2.0: do people really think that if we don't help them, that ends it, lesson learned, from now on it's all woodshed all the time? The people asking will just keep asking others. We might as well get them the good stuff before they go for that back-alley organ fix. That stuff's cut with bleach.

[MathOfInsects]

Oh man, I just realized: that poor guy who started this thread. Little did he know what he'd be unleashing!

[Piktor]

3 hours ago, bfields said:

It's bad to be constantly asking questions without doing any homework first, but can also be bad to forever be thinking "oh there's one more piece of homework I should do before I'm worthy of asking a question".

 

And, believe me, there are a *lot* of people that err on the side of not asking when they should.  The fear of being embarrassed by a stupid question is powerful.  I'm sure anyone who's worked with students has witnessed the problems that can cause.

 

Forums give you a skewed view, you rarely hear from those folks....

Sorry that this is an OT comment,  but your comment struck me. In a way, you described the difference in the approaches  that my wife and I take to shopping at the local hardware store. I “know” that I should do some homework so that I don’t ask a dumbass question. My wife does not “know” this, so she just asks whatever question she has. Almost always, she gets quicker results. She is my secret weapon. 😁

[Steve Nathan]

I've been called old, and dismissed with an OK Boomer like attitude, characterized as insisting the OP "PAY HIS DUES", "GET OFF MY LAWN" and now I'm "UNWELCOMING TO NEWCOMERS".  I actually tried (as I have always done in these kinds of posts) to help the OP by illustrating that copying DB settings is a dead end that doesn't get him where he wants to go. I tried to explain the complexities of recorded Hammond sounds and show him a better way to reach his goal and grow as a musician.  

Instead, the multitude of people here who do exactly what he does, were unwilling to accept that I had a different opinion of it's value, and they piled on me as some kind of cranky prick with a bad attitude.  I came here years ago to learn from others with more experience in areas where I was less knowledgeable. Opinions were often hurled with passion and vehemence, but I was grateful to hear what others believed.  Now I find myself in an time where people expect everyone to agree with them, and if you don't agree with them, they're offended. It's not taken as just another opinion based on different experiences, it's dismissed and spit on, cancelled, as they say, with prejudice.    How dare I not care for a record they love!  How dare I find Lachy Doley uninspiring!  How dare I find some technical wizard they adore, lacking in feel.  I will try to keep my opinions to myself if I continue to come here, but I'm sad and disappointed to see The KC devolve into just another place where "Nice" beats "Honest".  Barry Beckett told you the cold hard truth, period.  So did Jerry Wexler, Stan Szelest, Rick Hall, Jimmy Bowen, Tom Dowd, Phil Ramone..............  That's how you learned and grew.  I expect that soon, clones will come with presets, labeled "Green Onions", "Midnight Rider", "Love and Happiness", "Hush", "Chest Fever"... and so on.  You won't have to understand anything about your instrument, ever again.  Just mash one of those buttons, over there by the Transpose button and you're all set.  I'm done.

1 hour ago, JazzPiano88 said:

Yeah, it's like the first time you call CQ.    You don't know who is going to jump down your throat if you make a mistake.    

Some people are VERY unwelcoming to newcomers or people asking for advice, and we know who they are. 

 

I'm surprised that VI-Control came up here as a model of virtue (pardon the Pun), given that that forum was nearly destroyed by financial malfeasance and it took a change of ownership to "supposedly" recover.

 

[jazzpiano88]

I mean sheesh:

 - The guy has a new organ and asks if there is a real book for organ drawbar settings.

 - You go all medieval on him on 4 posts even after he tried to explain himself, as if he has taken food from your family.

 

I'll stand by my response.

[jazzpiano88]

On 10/16/2023 at 7:17 PM, kpl1228 said:

Got a used Mojo 61, love it.

However, I'm a real rookie when it comes to drawbars.....been playing organ presets on synths till now.

Is there a source or list, online or otherwise, of common drawbar settings for songs, esp. R&B and classic rock?

I'd love to know the settings for Allmans, Geils, Booker T, etc etc etc. Playing around and discovering it is fun, but I'd love a list!

Anyone know of a source for this? It's gotta be out there somewhere.

Thanks all

 

Found it.   The catch is that it requires a pre-test approved by Keyboard Corner:

 

[jazzpiano88]

I'm gonna work on these, but wouldn't fault anyone who wants to document these (I'm sure they're all standard, like the Real Book):

 

 

[Steve Nathan]

 

28 minutes ago, JazzPiano88 said:

I'll stand by my response.

Yeah, me too.

[MathOfInsects]

I can't speak for others, but I don't think there's any "boomer" stuff in there. You're royalty around here! I just think we as a board can send mixed messages. On one hand we complain that the ways "we" play aren't relevant any more, and on the other we rag people for coming here trying to learn them. 

Speaking only for myself, you're probably the player I'd most like to learn from about this stuff. (When I did the Keyboard Chronicles podcast and they asked who else they should have on, I believe I said one name: yours!) I know you're right that there has to be some bootstrapping along the way, and I think that message has a ton of merit...for some people in some circumstances. I just don't think the guy deserved to be accused of laziness for not being in those circumstances. (You weren't the only one doing that.) He was just asking because we're "the ones who know." And among the ones who know, you're The One Who Knows the Most.

Anyway. The horse is dead, long live the horse.

 

 

[Al Quinn]

9 hours ago, MathOfInsects said:

And among the ones who know, you're The One Who Knows the Most.

I’ve been reading this thread as it’s developed and have struggled to chime in. I get both sides of the discourse, but only to a point. The OP was seeking information and even though much of what they asked for is readily available with a Google search, they were looking for more from folks who know. Fair enough. Then I see someone who knows more than most (i.e., Steve Nathan) provide guidance that rings so true to me — advice I wish I had heard years ago. Instead of taking his advice people become bothered and reject it. I guess it wasn’t what they wanted to hear. 
 

IMHO, part of the homework we need to do as online forum participants is to understand who we’re talking to (as MOI clearly does). A simple Google search will show this as well:
 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Nathan

I feel very fortunate to hear the thoughts of a musician as accomplished as Steve. For me, the best thing about this forum is hearing from knowledgable and experienced people. It’s a kind of mentorship that’s largely disappeared in today’s world but is available for us right here. Steve, I hope you continue to participate on this forum 🎵

[eric]

I had missed this thread earlier. We are really, really lucky to have people like Steve Nathan here. It's humbling that he gives us his wisdom here. Thank you, @Steve Nathan!

 

As for how I navigate drawbar settings, here's my story. I first started working on my organ chops in the mid '80s when I was lucky to acquire a console A101 from the church where I grew up. They had one a rehearsal room and needed to get rid of it. We arranged to buy it for $500 and it landed in my childhood house living room for a couple of years, until I later moved it to my "adult" house.

 

The dual manual organ with four sets of drawbars, all these other controls for C/V, percussion, presets, etc. was pretty overwhelming to teenage me. There was no internet back then, so I just experimented and sort of taught myself how to use it. I was never accomplished as a true organ player like Jimmy Smith or Joey D in terms of walking bass, pedals, etc. though I really dug deep into the drawbars.

 

Fast forward a few years to late '80s when I joined a ska/reggae/pop band and realized that I'd need to have organ as my prominent sound for this. I got an analog Korg CX-3 that I used a few years (sometimes through a 145 Leslie) and then this was replaced by a Hammond XB-2 right when they came out around 1991-1992. I used the XB-2 with a Dynacord CLS-222 for a decade, and then I had a brief sting with some of the earlier XK models and the digital Korg CX-3 before I got hooked by the Nord Electro, Stage and others that would give me a bit more under the hood in terms of sound flexibility.

 

The drawbar sound that really grabbed me for a lot of songs (this band started doing covers and moved to originals quickly) was 888000008 - this was a solid foundational sound with some sparkle from that top drawbar. Sometimes the sound person would tell me it was cutting a bit too much and I'd back off to 888000004 or thereabouts. This was what I considered "my sound" and used it a lot. Also, there was a variation that was 808000008 which was a more mellow and flutey sound...or 800000008 which was the "whistle" type sound great for doing reggae bubbles and so forth.

 

Over time, I came to associate the second drawbar as the "rock and roll" bar and you can really hear it if you switch between 808000000 and 888000000. Even thicker rock and roll when you add in a bit of the fourth drawbar, whether full on 888800000 or some variation. I really liked using 686800000 or 686800006 which made the organ sound a little bit lighter in the mix and it would sort of float there when not using all those bars out all the way.

 

These aren't the only settings I used, but it was how I got everything started and still find myself here nearly 40 years later using similar type settings.

[MathOfInsects]

3 hours ago, Al Quinn said:

IMHO, part of the homework we need to do as online forum participants is to understand who we’re talking to.

I certainly agree, and I actually found KC literally from a series of Google searches trying to find out who played on a record called "Rhythm, Country, & Blues," and then searching the two players by name, and one of the links was to this keyboard discussion board that one (actually both) had posted on. So in a very direct way, the presence of Steve Nathan is my whole reason for knowing about and having joined KC in the first place. 

Completely separate from that is this truth: there a difference between knowing and teaching. Some who know the most aren't always effective teachers, and some are far better teachers than they are do-ers. IMO good teaching skews much farther toward aiming to understand the student, than caring if they know who we are. They already assume we The Ones Who Know. So that "homework" goes in both directions.

I read the OP carefully. To my eye, this was a guy stopping on the corner and asking if anyone here knew where he could buy hot dogs. We looked like a bunch of guys who know hot dogs.

One guy told him you can never buy hot dogs--ever. You have to understand them first, and this takes a long time, but once you do then you'll have hot dogs. 

Another called him lazy for asking a bunch of hot-dog eaters where to buy hot dogs instead of googling--even though he was in his car looking for hot dogs!

Some said they could help but first he has to understand food science and retail strategy.

Some tried to help but said, "listen, here's the idea. Snouts and teeth are stuffed into pig intestine. Then those are brought to stores and people buy them and grill them. Voila, Bob's your uncle."

 And some told him a couple of places he could buy hot dogs. 

Which ones do you think were most helpful for the guy trying to find some hot dogs? More to the point, do you think that guy is ever going to stop at that corner again?

 

[Threadslayer]

16 minutes ago, MathOfInsects said:

More to the point, do you think that guy is ever going to stop at that corner again?

Not if he knows what's good for him. 😉

[Al Quinn]

34 minutes ago, MathOfInsects said:

IMO good teaching skews much farther toward aiming to understand the student, than caring if they know who we are.

 

Agreed, but it's usually not possible to know the student in this context. I've always struggled with offering too much information and offending someone because they already knew it. So, in general I try to be careful with what I say. In the case of a person who's posted their music then it's easy to adjust the message in a constructive way. I wish more people would post their music so we can know each other better.

[Steve Nathan]

37 minutes ago, MathOfInsects said:

One guy told him you can never buy hot dogs--ever. You have to understand them first, and this takes a long time, but once you do then you'll have hot dogs. 

Another called him lazy for asking a bunch of hot-dog eaters where to buy hot dogs instead of googling--even though he was in his car looking for hot dogs!

Some said they could help but first he has to understand food science and retail strategy.

I think your analogy is off the mark, by a lot.  He came to a place of musicians and said,  I bought an Organ and I'm looking for presets.  After all, that's what DB settings from the internet are. Presets.

[MathOfInsects]

1 hour ago, Steve Nathan said:

I think your analogy is off the mark, by a lot.  He came to a place of musicians and said,  I bought an Organ and I'm looking for presets.  After all, that's what DB settings from the internet are. Presets.

Well, no analogy is perfect, but you're right, to be more direct he'd have to have asked cooks or chefs. 

But I feel the outcome is the same. 

I don't want to quibble over this with you (of all people); speaking only for myself it was the "lazy" post that I felt was most unfair to OP, and that one wasn't yours. I know the content of what you had to say was correct, and I've heard your guidance in my head as I've "tuned" organ to a room or stage, which I might never have understood was what was going on without previous KC discussions about all the variables involved with organ. 

I just felt some of the response to OP ignored his particular situation. The advice was correct, the target was off-base (IMO).

Let's leave this poor OP to have his thread and find his hot dogs.