new NI Kontrol S Mk3

[zephonic]

https://sonicstate.com/news/2023/09/12/new-native-instruments-midi-controller-keyboards/

 

 

[Radagast]

Well now.  Polyphonic aftertouch.  Seems they are smarter than Korg, Roland and Yamaha.  Are those big screens I see on each one?

[CHarrell]

 

9 minutes ago, Radagast said:

Well now.  Polyphonic aftertouch.  Seems they are smarter than Korg, Roland and Yamaha.  Are those big screens I see on each one?

 

It's interesting, 'cause these keybeds are made with Fatar, but I don't know which 88 key board of Fatar's supports Poly AT. The TP110 would be the obvious suspect for the keybed, but that only supports mono AT...unless they modified the 110 to include poly?

[DmitryKo]

AFAIK any keyboard capable of "monophonic" (or "channel") aftertouch can be converted to "polyphonic" by replacing the pressure-sensitive strip. For example Waldorf Iridium and Quantum Mk.2 keyboards use Fatar TP8/SK 61 keyboard w/polyphonic aftertouch, yet the TP8/SK product page only lists a "monophinic aftertouch strip".

[Motif88]

So, the question is..what is this Fatar keyboard?

Is the 88 weighted worthy or just another plastic fantasy?

 

[ElmerJFudd]

They were blowing out the previous model most of 2023 so this was imminent.  

 

Anything else of note besides the Poly AT?

[Melving]

Midi 2.0.  

 

Would this allow a knob to be labeled with the parameter label of choice?  If so it would be about time...

 

[zephonic]

At this point, I'm gonna pass on any controller that doesn't double as an audio interface. I don't really understand why only actual synths like Juno DS do that? If those boards can do it at competitive prices, why can't the dedicated controllers? 

 

In fact, the only reason I've kept the Juno DS76 around is it occasionally functions as a controller/interface for my laptop. 

[Doerfler]

3 hours ago, ElmerJFudd said:

 

 

Anything else of note besides the Poly AT?

Loopop covers this question nicely

 

 

[ElmerJFudd]

34 minutes ago, zephonic said:

At this point, I'm gonna pass on any controller that doesn't double as an audio interface. I don't really understand why only actual synths like Juno DS do that? If those boards can do it at competitive prices, why can't the dedicated controllers? 

 

In fact, the only reason I've kept the Juno DS76 around is it occasionally functions as a controller/interface for my laptop. 

Interesting.  Since the laptop or tablet is assuredly the sound engine for a controller like this we hear more often than not that players are content to use the onboard 3.5mm out and go to a DI box.  Or something like the Key Largo where they can mix USB audio and their hardware synths.  

[Reezekeys]

Yes, imo it makes more sense for a keyboard that makes its own sounds be able to act as an audio interface - that way you can have one set of outputs for both built-in and laptop or phone/tablet sounds.

[zephonic]

1 hour ago, ElmerJFudd said:

Interesting.  Since the laptop or tablet is assuredly the sound engine for a controller like this we hear more often than not that players are content to use the onboard 3.5mm out and go to a DI box.  Or something like the Key Largo where they can mix USB audio and their hardware synths.  

 

Yeah, that's what I have been doing. Going straight from the headphone out into a DI or whatever the sound company has set up. Initially I brought my RME interface, but I hated unplugging and replugging every time, so I got lazy and just bought a good quality 3.5mm>dual 1/4" cable. I'm thinking of buying a MOTU M2 or UA Volt1 just for the away gigs and keep that in my backpack.

 

Still, I feel like it's not a big ask to include audio IO, especially if the manufacturer makes interfaces as well (like NI). It seems like such a simple and logical addition.

[zephonic]

1 hour ago, Reezekeys said:

Yes, imo it makes more sense for a keyboard that makes its own sounds be able to act as an audio interface - that way you can have one set of outputs for both built-in and laptop or phone/tablet sounds.

 

Why do you say that makes more sense for keyboards with built-in sounds? Would you not want that capability in your controller keyboard? I believe you travel with the A800, right? Would it not be convenient if that had the audio IO built in as well? 

 

[Reezekeys]

I only have one source of audio - my laptop (or phone/tablet). Does it matter where the output is located? It's a wire going to a stereo DI box (or my PPAs for a local gig). What's the advantage of having it come out of my keyboard vs my laptop? Maybe you have a different setup on stage.

[zephonic]

I do the same thing, USB MIDI cable to whatever keyboard backline provides, and 3.5mm>dual 1/4” cable from laptop’s headphone jack to whatever they want that plugged in to.

 

But I have this nagging feeling that the sound quality is not really up there. I mean, it works, and k.i.s.s. but I feel like it sounds better when running thru the Juno or an audio interface.

 

[Reezekeys]

You should be happy with your sound - so use what works for you. Years ago I brought a MOTU MicroBook IIc audio interface on gigs. It sounded fine and did give me a lot of cool features - but after it disconnected in the middle of a show I started using the headphone output and didn't notice any decrease in sound quality. Even if the specs are a little worse on paper, there's no way I'm gonna hear that difference on a gig with any band. I've  also done solo gigs and have no problem with the sound quality - if anything, my Alto TX308s are hurting the sound more than any headphone amp in a laptop could! 🙂 

[zephonic]

Yeah, I suppose it could be a more of a mental thing than anything else.

 

Maybe I should just buy that Volt 1 or M2 and try it out on the gig this weekend. See if it makes a difference in terms of sound quality. If not, I could probably return it.

 

edit:

Looking into this, Apple's support page states 

 

Quote

 

The 3.5 mm headphone jack on compatible Mac computers features DC load detection and adaptive voltage output. Your Mac can detect the impedance of the connected device and will adapt its output for low- and high-impedance headphones, as well as for line-level audio devices.

 

When you connect headphones with an impedance of less than 150 ohms, the headphone jack provides up to 1.25 volts RMS. For headphones with an impedance of 150 to 1k ohms, the headphone jack delivers 3 volts RMS. This may remove the need for an external headphone amplifier.

 

With impedance detection, adaptive voltage output, and a built-in digital-to-analog converter that supports sample rates of up to 96 kHz, you can enjoy high-fidelity, full-resolution audio directly from the headphone jack on your Mac.

 

 

Does anybody idea what constitutes line level according to Apple? -10dBU? Voltage? Impedance? Thanks!

 

[Anderton]

2 hours ago, zephonic said:

Still, I feel like it's not a big ask to include audio IO, especially if the manufacturer makes interfaces as well (like NI). It seems like such a simple and logical addition.

 

Perhaps the issue is that NI feels the higher price would scare away people who already have an audio interface, and don't want to spend the extra money?

[Reezekeys]

51 minutes ago, zephonic said:

Does anybody idea what constitutes line level according to Apple? -10dBU? Voltage? Impedance? Thanks!

 

I could be mistaken but I seem to remember a page on the Apple website that gave specific numbers as to their headphone output's level, s/n ratio and frequency response. I don't know those numbers and don't really care to know them, because I've been connecting all my laptops - from the Titanium Powerbook G4 I got in 2001 to the brand new 15" Air I got two months ago – to my PPAs and have never had an issue driving them as loud as I need for any gig.

 

51 minutes ago, zephonic said:

When you connect headphones with an impedance of less than 150 ohms, the headphone jack provides up to 1.25 volts RMS. For headphones with an impedance of 150 to 1k ohms, the headphone jack delivers 3 volts RMS.

 

I'm pretty sure the input impedance of any amp or PPA is more than 1K - probably at least 10K. Easy-peasy for the Mac's headphone amp to drive.

 

[stoken6]

8 hours ago, ElmerJFudd said:

Interesting.  Since the laptop or tablet is assuredly the sound engine for a controller like this we hear more often than not that players are content to use the onboard 3.5mm out and go to a DI box.  Or something like the Key Largo where they can mix USB audio and their hardware synths.  

 

 

7 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

Yes, imo it makes more sense for a keyboard that makes its own sounds be able to act as an audio interface - that way you can have one set of outputs for both built-in and laptop or phone/tablet sounds.

 

If your device actually has a headphone socket, then you're fine. That limits you to laptops, and older tablets/phones. (It's why I bought a 2019 iPad Mini when the 2021 model was already available). But newer tablets/phones only have one connector, and that will be used for connecting to the keyboard controller. So a controller with a built-in audio interface makes sense for users of e.g. the latest iPads. Add USB Power Deliver to charge the tablet while it's connected for bonus points. 

 

(Bluetooth MIDI is an alternative way for controllers to communicate with sound sources without occupying the connector).

 

Cheers, Mike.

[zephonic]

5 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

I only have one source of audio - my laptop (or phone/tablet). Does it matter where the output is located? It's a wire going to a stereo DI box (or my PPAs for a local gig). What's the advantage of having it come out of my keyboard vs my laptop? Maybe you have a different setup on stage.

 

Actually, revisiting this: one of the things I do not like about using the headphone jack on the MBP is volume control with the f keys. I really prefer a fader or knob for master volume control when I'm playing. To that end, if I have a Motif or Fantom on top, I run the audio out from the laptop into the audio in of the keyboard so as to tactile level control (although the extra stage of ADA is not great for sound quality).

 

It's another reason I'd wanna have audio IO on a controller keyboard

[UnderGroundGr]

28 minutes ago, zephonic said:

 

Actually, revisiting this: one of the things I do not like about using the headphone jack on the MBP is volume control with the f keys. I really prefer a fader or knob for master volume control when I'm playing. To that end, if I have a Motif or Fantom on top, I run the audio out from the laptop into the audio in of the keyboard so as to tactile level control (although the extra stage of ADA is not great for sound quality).

 

It's another reason I'd wanna have audio IO on a controller keyboard

It's off topic but i have radial key largo and i have no problem with any synth/computer setup...

[Reezekeys]

37 minutes ago, zephonic said:

Actually, revisiting this: one of the things I do not like about using the headphone jack on the MBP is volume control with the f keys. I really prefer a fader or knob for master volume control when I'm playing.

 

I always keep my computer volume at maximum, and assign a fader on my A800 to control a "final" gain module in Bidule, right before the audio output - that's my master volume. Actually I keep my laptop in back of me, never have to touch it or look at it.

 

47 minutes ago, stoken6 said:

But newer tablets/phones only have one connector, and that will be used for connecting to the keyboard controller. So a controller with a built-in audio interface makes sense for users of e.g. the latest iPads. Add USB Power Deliver to charge the tablet while it's connected for bonus points. 

 

Great point, yes. I'm still in the "headphone jack world" so wasn't thinking of this! I stand corrected. Hell, add a built-in clip or holder for the tablet while you're at it, or make a keyboard with a flat surface tilted towards the player and some way to affix the tablet.

[ElmerJFudd]

1 hour ago, stoken6 said:

 

 

 

If your device actually has a headphone socket, then you're fine. That limits you to laptops, and older tablets/phones. (It's why I bought a 2019 iPad Mini when the 2021 model was already available). But newer tablets/phones only have one connector, and that will be used for connecting to the keyboard controller. So a controller with a built-in audio interface makes sense for users of e.g. the latest iPads. Add USB Power Deliver to charge the tablet while it's connected for bonus points. 

 

(Bluetooth MIDI is an alternative way for controllers to communicate with sound sources without occupying the connector).

 

Cheers, Mike.

Lightning to 3.5mm or I guess now USBC to 3.5mm cable.  Or a USBC dock with a headphone jack.  That’s the feedback we’ve gotten here at least from those using iPads. 

[Doerfler]

Excellent discussion. Not on topic, but an excellent discussion nevertheless. 

[Stokely]

If I had any inclination to use this live, you bet I'd want an audio interface built in.  My Modx has this and it's a great feature.   At least some have it (Studiologic) and that's a plus for them, and a minus for a controller that doesn't have it.   The less "bits" you have to bring and set up (and have backups for) the better.

Realistically I don't see needing a computer or ipad live for the rest of my gigging life--though never say never--as I prefer simpler hardware keyboards... I'd only be interested in studio features so it's not a consideration.

[zephonic]

6 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

 

I always keep my computer volume at maximum, and assign a fader on my A800 to control a "final" gain module in Bidule, right before the audio output - that's my master volume. Actually I keep my laptop in back of me, never have to touch it or look at it.

 

Yes, that works great if you always have the same keyboard with you. On the last five gigs I had five different keyboards, so my setup is completely device-agnostic by necessity.

 

I just got TouchOSC for my iPad to function as a controller for GP, but it's a bit of learning there. Also, half the time I need my iPad for charts as well, so I may need to get another one. A simpler/cheaper solution could be the Contour ShuttleExpress. Figuring this out.

[Reezekeys]

54 minutes ago, zephonic said:

On the last five gigs I had five different keyboards, so my setup is completely device-agnostic by necessity.

 

I've had occasion to use a different keyboard as well - that's when the NanoKontrol comes out, and a few globs of artist's putty to stick it somewhere. Give me a DX7 from 1984 and I'll still have my laptop setup with all my sounds & presets. I'm lucky because my gig is not very heavy on presets,  nor does it require complicated controller moves – everything I need can be handled by the NanoK.

[RABid]

Built in sound interface is not an issue for me unless I am using an iPad, and the iPad is not the target market for this keyboard. It is meant to control Komplete, and any computer I have Komplete on has a better sound interface than what I would get from some cheap controller addition. 

[zephonic]

1 hour ago, Reezekeys said:

 

I've had occasion to use a different keyboard as well - that's when the NanoKontrol comes out, and a few globs of artist's putty to stick it somewhere. Give me a DX7 from 1984 and I'll still have my laptop setup with all my sounds & presets. I'm lucky because my gig is not very heavy on presets,  nor does it require complicated controller moves – everything I need can be handled by the NanoK.

 

Yeah, I looked at the NanoKontrol as well. How do you like it? I'm gonna give TouchOSC a try first. I need patch switching for each song, main volume control, and a few sliders for adjusting individual levels in split keyboard patches.

 

1 hour ago, RABid said:

Built in sound interface is not an issue for me unless I am using an iPad, and the iPad is not the target market for this keyboard. It is meant to control Komplete, and any computer I have Komplete on has a better sound interface than what I would get from some cheap controller addition. 

 

I don't understand this thinking, why assume an on-board interface would be worse? NI makes average but competent audio interfaces, they could deploy the exact same tech in their controller keyboards. Why would that be inferior?

 

So far it looks like I might be in the minority here, but stick a Komplete Audio 2 in these controller keyboards, add $100 to the price, and it makes a pretty compelling all-in-one solution. If that $100 is an issue, make it a cost option and see how the market responds.

I've been thinking about this for a long time, and if they add laptop charging over USB-C, you'd have a true one cable solution for your laptop live rig. 

 

Watch for the Zephonic XE controller, coming to you soon! (hey, a man can dream ya?)