Rumors: Yamaha Montage successor

[AnotherScott]

19 hours ago, Chummy said:

It's a decent action, much better than a current Montage 8's version which is the same as a CP73 but with addded aftertouch.

 

No, the CP73 and Montage 8 keys are completely different. What they share is that they are balanced (same weighting throughout) vs. graded (heavier lower keys, lighter feeling top ones), but they are not the same design.

[Aperkeys]

I'm sorry to say but I would have been really surprised if they had included a 9th slider on the Montage M. From a simple business point of view, they can't really make a move to cannibalize the sales of the YC range. I think, actually - I hope, that the new Studio Rotary FX from the YC range will be included, so it'll give great potential for Hammond sounds without having to carry a second board above it. Even I, a Hammond freak whose technique is more Organ-Oriented in later years (Began as a pianist), would gladly accept a potential compromise like that in order to do some gigs with one board only. And above that, I'm convinced the AN-X will be part of the new board, hopefully with a revamped ROM and at least 4-6GB of Flash RAM for external samples. According to my two cents -  Good times ahead!

[AnotherScott]

27 minutes ago, Aperkeys said:

I'm sorry to say but I would have been really surprised if they had included a 9th slider on the Montage M. From a simple business point of view, they can't really make a move to cannibalize the sales of the YC range.

Cannibalizing can work in reverse if the new board is a more expensive (more profitable) board. That is, it can be worth sacrificing the sale of a $2,000 board if the customer was instead enticed to buy the $4,000 board.

[CHarrell]

11 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

Cannibalizing can work in reverse if the new board is a more expensive (more profitable) board. That is, it can be worth sacrificing the sale of a $2,000 board if the customer was instead enticed to buy the $4,000 board.

 

I suspect the YC and Montage 2 will be within $1,000 of each other.

[AnotherScott]

I was making a generic rhetorical point, but yes, to be more accurate to these exact boards, it's probably destined to be more of a $1k difference than $2k... but the point remains. Up-selling the customer to a product that costs $1k more is, in a way, the opposite of cannibalizing.

[Docbop]

I imagine the new Montage will be like the new Nord Stage 4 and some changes to the physical control section, but internalize minimal changes.   Same with the Nord and Kronos and Nautilus mainly physical interface changes, some OS interface changes,  expanded sounds, but internally the same.     Changing the internal electronic is a costly endeavor and all these companies except Nord have a high and low end versions based off each other to keep manufacturing costs down.    So I thing Yamaha will go down the same path redo the control panel, software updates, an leave the internals alone.    Economy is  to flakey right now to risk major change and create a totally new SKU. 

[AnotherScott]

Just now, Docbop said:

all these companies except Nord have a high and low end versions based off each other to keep manufacturing costs down. 

 

Nord has actually been the master of that, I think. You've been able to get piano models, (until recently) organ models, piano+organ models, synth models, piano+organ+synth models, each with designs that were largely redundant with the same components of other boards. From bottom to top of range, they seem largely based off very similar designs (allowing also for phased-in changes that happen over time, i.e. where generations can overlap).

[ElmerJFudd]

1 hour ago, AnotherScott said:

 

Nord has actually been the master of that, I think. You've been able to get piano models, (until recently) organ models, piano+organ models, synth models, piano+organ+synth models, each with designs that were largely redundant with the same components of other boards. From bottom to top of range, they seem largely based off very similar designs (allowing also for phased-in changes that happen over time, i.e. where generations can overlap).

Heck, the main significant change between generations at one point was simply doling out minor upgrades in storage.  

[Chummy]

3 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

 

No, the CP73 and Montage 8 keys are completely different. What they share is that they are balanced (same weighting throughout) vs. graded (heavier lower keys, lighter feeling top ones), but they are not the same design.

Yeah you are correct, I was mistaken, it's not the same parts.

 

It does feel very close though (in terms of subjective feel, I owned Montage 8 for a couple of years and tested the CP73 once in a shop)

 

Edit: The more important question tho, will you, Scott, get a Montage X?

 

[ElmerJFudd]

10 minutes ago, Chummy said:

Yeah you are correct, I was mistaken, it's not the same parts.

 

It does feel very close though (in terms of subjective feel, I owned Montage 8 for a couple of years and tested the CP73 once in a shop)

 

Edit: The more important question tho, will you, Scott, get a Montage X?

 

He probably will get the 7, and make room in the stable by lending me his PC4-7 indefinitely.    

[Keyboardplayer]

There will be 3 versions of the Montage M. This is another leaked photo showing all three versions. Notice also that Yamaha kept the mod/pitch bend wheels and the ribbon controller.  

[AnotherScott]

Nah, I doubt I'll ever get anything in Yamaha's Montage range, because it's highly unlikely to meet my weight requirement!

[jazzpiano88]

11 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

Nah, I doubt I'll ever get anything in Yamaha's Montage range, because it's highly unlikely to meet my weight requirement!

 

I kind of lament the death of the rackmount versions.      Set up your sets with an editor/librarian and then play it will a controller/rack.

The rack would be affordable at 0.7 * M6

 

[Bobadohshe]

I can only speak for my very specific purposes.

 

But I'm bummed on the loss of the 8 x 4 button grid on the right. The way I have my sounds organized on the Montage makes it so I can get to any of my sounds lightning quick with 2 button presses. This is an indispensable part of my Top 40 gig flow. 16 patches per page x 16 pages and I really need 'em all that quick. Not sure how it'll work in this new one. Maybe you just have to use the touchscreen. I avoid using it as much as possible. Durable tactile buttons are more responsive and reliable in the heat of battle.

 

Other than that I wonder what this upgrade is all about. Right now there is a limbo where the old Montage is discontinued and whatever this product is isn't available yet. That's not usually how Yamaha rolls.

[confidence]

11 hours ago, Keyboardplayer said:

There will be 3 versions of the Montage M. This is another leaked photo showing all three versions. Notice also that Yamaha kept the mod/pitch bend wheels and the ribbon controller.  

Blimey, do you need planning permission to install a keyboard that size?

 

[Jose EB5AGV]

On Summer 2022, while visiting my daughter in Germany, there was a beer festival (not uncommon in Germany 😉) which included some live music. We were fortunate that a very good pop/rock covers band played the day we attended it and we enjoyed a full concert during lunch and after it. Of course, my main interest was on the keys and I looked what the player, a really gifted one, used. He was playing mainly a Motif workstation, and it suited perfectly the band sound.

 

So, for me, I know the tools I have (Montage 6 and MODX6+) are not for sure the limiting factors to my playing. I am!. Yes, I hope to, someday, have a new Montage. But, right now, I will keep learning how to use and enjoy what I have.

 

I will of course enjoy watching and listening more competent than me (not hard) players on the new Montage. And will dream the day I can do something like that. But no need for new hardware now! (don't tell my GAS, please 😁!!!)

[Radagast]

On 8/26/2023 at 7:14 PM, CHarrell said:

 

I think the No. 1 variable here is that the YC probably wasn't even in RnD when the Montage came out...this new pup is probably gonna be 3,000+ dollars...and if that new keybed is the NWGH after all, that'd be a LOT of overlap with the YC88 if they made this one more organ friendly. 

 

On the other hand, the Montage is supposed to be their flagship.

[Radagast]

17 hours ago, Aperkeys said:

I'm sorry to say but I would have been really surprised if they had included a 9th slider on the Montage M. From a simple business point of view, they can't really make a move to cannibalize the sales of the YC range. 

Same as above.

[ElmerJFudd]

31 minutes ago, Radagast said:

Same as above.

reface YC has 9 faders at $449.99

 

Yamaha CK61 has 9 faders at $999.99.  

 

YC61 has 9 faders at $1999.99.  
 

Yamaha Genos has 9 faders at $4999.99.  
 

I don’t see why a Montage M 61 can’t have 9 faders at $3199.99.  In fact, based on this pattern, the Montage should also have the YC’s B3 and Leslie engine.
 

But I do see Yamaha not wanting to rework the case and components on the previous model.  It’s lazy and cost effective. 🤷‍♂️ 

[AnotherScott]

54 minutes ago, ElmerJFudd said:

But I do see Yamaha not wanting to rework the case and components on the previous model.  It’s lazy and cost effective. 🤷‍♂️ 

 

But also, in Yamaha's basic architecture for these boards (at least so far), the sliders are not as versatile (re-definable) as the knobs, they are essentially hard-coded to (in the case of the Montage) the levels of the Parts (1 to 8, 9 to 16) or the Elements (1 to 8). Which means, unless they've made a much more fundamental change to the inner workings of the board, there's usually nothing for a ninth slider to do! So, no point to adding one.

 

There would be more of a case for the ninth slider if they were actually adding the YC engine to the board, but we have no reason to believe they are doing so. And even then, they'd have to deal with what that slider should do on the 99% of sounds that aren't organ sounds... there would still be an argument to be made that the 9th slider is not justifiable. At least not without additional changes to the system that make it useful for something other than drawbar 9.

 

What bugs me is, on the Fantom-0, which DOES have a  legit clonewheel engine, not only is there no ninth fader, but you also can't assign that ninth drawbar level to one of the assignable knobs, which I would have found to have been an acceptable compromise considering it's the "budget" version of the Fantom.

[ElmerJFudd]

5 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

 

But also, in Yamaha's basic architecture for these boards (at least so far), the sliders are not as versatile (re-definable) as the knobs, they are essentially hard-coded to (in the case of the Montage) the levels of the Parts (1 to 8, 9 to 16) or the Elements (1 to 8). Which means, unless they've made a much more fundamental change to the inner workings of the board, there's usually nothing for a ninth slider to do! So, no point to adding one.

 

There would be more of a case for the ninth slider if they were actually adding the YC engine to the board, but we have no reason to believe they are doing so. And even then, they'd have to deal with what that slider should do on the 99% of sounds that aren't organ sounds... there would still be an argument to be made that the 9th slider is not justifiable. At least not without additional changes to the system that make it useful for something other than drawbar 9.

 

What bugs me is, on the Fantom-0, which DOES have a  legit clonewheel engine, not only is there no ninth fader, but you also can't assign that ninth drawbar level to one of the assignable knobs, which I would have found to have been an acceptable compromise considering it's the "budget" version of the Fantom.

Insightful as always.  Of course the Montage competes with the Fantom which does have 9 faders for its organ engine.  A missed opportunity here for Yamaha to get live players’ attention this time around at this price point.  

[CHarrell]

5 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

 

But also, in Yamaha's basic architecture for these boards (at least so far), the sliders are not as versatile (re-definable) as the knobs, they are essentially hard-coded to (in the case of the Montage) the levels of the Parts (1 to 8, 9 to 16) or the Elements (1 to 8). Which means, unless they've made a much more fundamental change to the inner workings of the board, there's usually nothing for a ninth slider to do! So, no point to adding one.

 

There would be more of a case for the ninth slider if they were actually adding the YC engine to the board, but we have no reason to believe they are doing so. And even then, they'd have to deal with what that slider should do on the 99% of sounds that aren't organ sounds... there would still be an argument to be made that the 9th slider is not justifiable. At least not without additional changes to the system that make it useful for something other than drawbar 9.

 

What bugs me is, on the Fantom-0, which DOES have a  legit clonewheel engine, not only is there no ninth fader, but you also can't assign that ninth drawbar level to one of the assignable knobs, which I would have found to have been an acceptable compromise considering it's the "budget" version of the Fantom.

 

It's cute to see how different companies try to get around not having 9 drawbars--the MP7/11 workaround is hilarious. That said, I have an Arturia Keylab Mk2, with 9 sliders, and the way it handles non-drawbar duties is it has 8 of the sliders as channel faders (with buttons to toggle between sets of 8 if you're working with more tracks on a DAW), and the 9th one is a master fader. It works really well!

[zephonic]

On 8/27/2023 at 10:00 PM, Bobadohshe said:

 

But I'm bummed on the loss of the 8 x 4 button grid on the right. The way I have my sounds organized on the Montage makes it so I can get to any of my sounds lightning quick with 2 button presses. This is an indispensable part of my Top 40 gig flow. 16 patches per page x 16 pages and I really need 'em all that quick. Not sure how it'll work in this new one. Maybe you just have to use the touchscreen. I avoid using it as much as possible. Durable tactile buttons are more responsive and reliable in the heat of battle.

 

 

Yes, I've had similar gripes with the Fantom X and every keyboard since. 

 

That said, Setlist works reasonably well for me, but I agree that in the middle of a performance it's too easy to hit the wrong one or having to tap more than once. It is doable, but dedicated buttons worked way better. However, I haven't had those since the XP80, so...

 

I do think that a proper capacitive touch display like an iPad's would probably improve that, though. Crappy resistive screens are no good for this type of use. Adding capacitive touch to the Montage would make the display much more usable.

 

[Nostalgia4Infinity]

To attract me to the Montage would be - significantly more useful sequencer with editing and CC send capability, and much better and more flexible MIDI receive configuration.  An Analog filter option like the Fantom’s would be attractive too.

I have a MODX6 currently as my 2nd tier and really do enjoy the sounds and find the workflow better than the Motif but with aforementioned limitations.

[Keyboardplayer]

This possibly new feature was mentioned by Jason over at the Yamaha Synth forum. 

 

"There looks to be sort of a line from two LEDs just to the left of the sliders (in the all-the-way down position - there at the bottom). This is tending to indicate to me that the sliders (probably knobs too) can be switched from Parts 1-8 to Parts 9-16. If this is a case then it's a big deal since currently you cannot switch the sliders to 9-16 without also SELECTING a Part 9-16. It just can't be done. So if you had something you want to do to change a level or assignable knob/parameter in 9-16 you HAD to use superknob or the common assignable knobs to target 9-16. Otherwise, selecting the Part 9-16 would cut off the keys from controlling Parts 1-8 with keyboard control turned on. So, if this conjecture is true, then this would be a pretty major thing for sound shaping in live performance." 

 

[Keyboardplayer]

There were four main gripes about the Montage that will hopefully be rectified on the Montage M8X/M7/M6. The Montage lacked a dedicated tonewheel organ engine. It lacked a VA engine. It lacked direct sampling, and a deep sequencer. Yamaha was aware of the shortfalls on the original Montage, so it'll be interesting to see if Yamaha actually listened to its customer's wishes. Btw, I kind of doubt Yamaha will provide a real Sampler or a deep Sequencer because they own Steinberg, and from a business perspective it makes sense that they'd rather have Montage/M/MODX/+/YC owners using Cubase and/or Nuendo for sampling and sequencing projects since it increases Yamaha's bottom line in the process. Yamaha is in business to make a profit, needless to say. But I think there will be a VA synth engine and hopefully a tonewheel organ engine as well. The price difference between the YC-series and the Montage M is substantial, so I don't think it would interfere with sales of the YC vs. the Montage M with a tonewheel organ, since the YC-series is a much more affordable option for those on a more constrained budget. Time will tell.

[AnotherScott]

While clonewheel and VA would be nice, at least there are other readily available solutions for those things (Refaces, Roland VR-09 and Boutique modules, iPad apps, etc.). What I'd really like to see is access to the Genos SA2 and Ensemble voices in something other than a large $5k+ board (which, itself, still doesn't do all a Montage does).

[jerrythek]

1 hour ago, Keyboardplayer said:

There were four main gripes about the Montage that will hopefully be rectified on the Montage M8X/M7/M6. The Montage lacked a dedicated tonewheel organ engine. It lacked a VA engine. It lacked direct sampling, and a deep sequencer. Yamaha was aware of the shortfalls on the original Montage, so it'll be interesting to see if Yamaha actually listened to its customer's wishes. Btw, I kind of doubt Yamaha will provide a real Sampler or a deep Sequencer because they own Steinberg, and from a business perspective it makes sense that they'd rather have Montage/M/MODX/+/YC owners using Cubase and/or Nuendo for sampling and sequencing projects since it increases Yamaha's bottom line in the process. Yamaha is in business to make a profit, needless to say. But I think there will be a VA synth engine and hopefully a tonewheel organ engine as well. The price difference between the YC-series and the Montage M is substantial, so I don't think it would interfere with sales of the YC vs. the Montage M with a tonewheel organ, since the YC-series is a much more affordable option for those on a more constrained budget. Time will tell.

Yamaha very consciously did away with the deep sequencer, and I don’t imagine they would spend the time to code more features than what the Motif offered. They certainly could go back and reinstate that code. I don’t think that software sales provide that much return to the bottom line as compared to hardware, however.

 

I think they’ll be making a huge mistake if the don’t offer both VA and improved tonewheel engines. Both Korg and Roland have moved far ahead of them in those regards.

 

Jerry

[ElmerJFudd]

31 minutes ago, jerrythek said:

Yamaha very consciously did away with the deep sequencer, and I don’t imagine they would spend the time to code more features than what the Motif offered. They certainly could go back and reinstate that code. I don’t think that software sales provide that much return to the bottom line as compared to hardware, however.

 

I think they’ll be making a huge mistake if the don’t offer both VA and improved tonewheel engines. Both Korg and Roland have moved far ahead of them in those regards.

 

Jerry

When Yamaha released montage they basically acknowledged the trend away from workstation production to Cubase, Ableton, Logic, etc.  Focusing on performance features, live tweaking/sound manipulation.  They apparently had to backtrack a bit with Montage OS updates to appease a segment of the user base that was not happy about the decision.  
 

It is difficult to gauge what will and won’t be included in the update.  Yes, it’s time for them to stop jerking around about organs on Motif/Montage.  I’m expecting a VA engine.  But who knows.  It will be released within days.    I can hear the axe grinders spinning already. 

[jerrythek]

15 hours ago, ElmerJFudd said:

When Yamaha released montage they basically acknowledged the trend away from workstation production to Cubase, Ableton, Logic, etc.  Focusing on performance features, live tweaking/sound manipulation.  They apparently had to backtrack a bit with Montage OS updates to appease a segment of the user base that was not happy about the decision.  
 

It is difficult to gauge what will and won’t be included in the update.  Yes, it’s time for them to stop jerking around about organs on Motif/Montage.  I’m expecting a VA engine.  But who knows.  It will be released within days.    I can hear the axe grinders spinning already. 

Yes, that was what I was referring to… 

 

No doubt axes will grind for one reason or another. We’ll see soon enough!