Behringer Pro-800: Stocking Stuffer or Suppository?

[The Real MC]

14 hours ago, CyberGene said:

Let’s cut the cr*p about what repair guys or snobs say about Behringer.

 

No amount of knee-jerk all-encompassing over-generalizing blanket dismissal will minimize the truth about Behringer's reliability and repair history so take your Saul Alinsky minimizing and shove it.  Facts are facts.

So enjoy buying "reasonably priced" landfill fodder and throwing away your money.

[Joe Muscara]

I’m actually trying to forget the suggestions in this thread for non-B*ger inexpensive, cool synths because lord knows I don’t need any more synth-gas. 🤓

 

If I change my mind, though, I’ll be back here.

[GRollins]

I suppose it was inevitable that this would turn into a "hate Behringer" thread. Interestingly, I don't recall a single post answering the OP....maybe I blinked. No, I'm afraid that I don't have any wisdom to impart regarding the 800, however, on the topic of Behringer:

 

For the record, I own a number of Behringer products. Some are more interesting than others, but all offer solid value for what they are and what they cost.

 

I fail to understand those criticizing Behringer for copying synths like the Moog Model D. Moog has offered the Model D as a reissue at intervals, but at a rather high price. Now, as far as I know, they sold all the reissues, so I suppose they understood their market. That said, if I can have the sound of a Model D for a fraction of the price of a Moog reissue, then I'll take it and be glad. Any patents have long since expired, so there's no reason not to. Moog almost completely ignored the Eurorack format, even though it's thriving. It's a complete no-brainer to adapt their older synth modules to Eurorack--something I discussed with employees at the Moog store (they were VERY frustrated that management was ignoring their entreaties to build Eurorack synth modules). Then along comes Behringer, who does the Moog synths at a fraction of the cost and...gets lambasted for their efforts. How dare they?!? Of course, the Model D (along with a bunch of other items) is selling like hotcakes, so I guess Behringer won that argument. It's not like Moog even tried.

 

Of the sundry Behringer products I own, only one has given me trouble. I was a very early adopter of the Model D and my first unit had the firmware glitch that caused some units to hang when updating. They gave me a brand new unit in exchange and were quite pleasant about it, so I offer that as a counterweight to others who might relate horror stories that happened to a friend of a friend of a friend... Bought another D, by the way, used. Most of my units were purchased new (I wait for sales, at which point the bang/buck ratio goes even higher). Some were used. Other than the first D, not a single glitch.

 

If someone: a) Has obtained a schematic of the actual production Behringer Model D through some back channel--or--b) Has reverse engineered the circuit (tedious, but doable--when I was younger I'd have done it for fun, but the damned things are full of SMD parts and my eyes aren't up to the task), then maybe there might be a basis for discussion. All else is chest pounding and trolling. Spare me. There's quite enough noise in the ether these days without that.

 

I'm not saying Behringer is the best brand, ever. I've got some things they've made, but I've got a lot more things that other companies made. The display on one of my Intellijel Plonks is going out. I went to their website to ask if there was anything I could do on this end, but there were endless hoops to jump through. Do you think I should start an Intellijel hate thread? Maybe say how crappy their equipment is because my display is going out? Should I also rake them over the coals because they're not easy to talk to? Yeah, that's the ticket! LET'S ALL HATE INTELLIJEL!!! Right? Sound like a good idea to you? No? Me either. Yet, change the company name to Behringer and watch out, 'cause the shit's gonna fly.

 

As I noted in another thread a little while back, there are people who just want to be mad. I'm growing weary of it. I try to remember to choose a more positive path. Sometimes I fail, but if I manage to get through the day without adding negativity to the world, then I count that as a good thing. Unfortunately, those who want to be mad are addicted to the self-righteous adrenaline rush that they get by lashing out at others. I can't stop them, but I can try in my own way to balance the scales just a tiny bit.

 

Grey

 

P.S.: Personally, I find the Behringer logo (a detached human ear) annoying. I wish they'd choose something a little classier. Oh well, if that's the worst thing I've got to say about the company, things will probably turn out all right in the end.

 

To what extent do you think the hate directed towards the company is influenced by their ugly logo? I'm almost willing to bet that if they had a better logo, people would think better of them.

[JoJoB3]

3 hours ago, The Real MC said:

So enjoy buying...

Exactly. [snip of the eloquent, emo-stuff mainly because there's little point and ultimately nobody really cares]

Maybe just take a deep breath and say tomorrow's going to be a better day.  Have a nice meal.
Write a song instead of a post. Buy a vintage ARP! 

[mcgoo]

I recently bought a System 55. No regrets, no guilt. I've always wanted a big Moog Modular. There was no fricking way I was going to drop upwards of $30k to get one. Ever. Kudos to Behringer for providing a way for this mere mortal to own a reasonable facsimile of a childhood dream. It's also possible that they've ignited an interest (translate: buyer) in more Eurorack gear, so again, good on them. That being said, I won't buy any of their knockoffs of currently available products. That just seems wrong, but I try to only judge my own actions. 

[Tom Williams]

 

59 minutes ago, GRollins said:

To what extent do you think the hate directed towards the company is influenced by their ugly logo? I'm almost willing to bet that if they had a better logo, people would think better of them.

My favorite post of the whole thread so far.

 

Con: The FCB 1010 had great hardware, but such lousy firmware that Behringer folks told us how to get Uno EPROMs for it. 

 

Neutral: I have never bought a Behringer synth, although the D is tempting. 

 

Pro: Their acquisition of Midas, and the subsequent release of the X32 and X-Air series digital mixers, changed the entire mixer industry for the better.  Almost overnight we could get the functional equivalent of an $8000 rack of equipment for $800. 

 

 

[Nathanael_I]

The X32 is a product that shifted the whole game of live music. Churches, bands, venues, PA companies…. Everyone knows how to use this mixer and deal with its limitations. It’s ProTools for the live sound crowd. It isn’t the best at anything. I upgraded to an Allen & Heath SQ-5 when I could, but if there’s a ubiquitous live sound device, it’s the X32.   That changed what was possible for most. They changed the whole industry with this mixer. I’ve owned the Behringer and Midas versions. I’ve mixed on them for many years. All trouble free. The value for $ is unreal.  Again, there are much better choices. But for most needs, it’s an abundance of riches. Buy one and a few of the new generation of speakers and very good sound can be had if you know how to use the gear. 
 

their synths are almost completely uninteresting. I’m not enamored with vintage gear generally. I’ve got a Minimoog Model D from the first batch of reissues. I’ve got an OB-6. Everything else is modern makers pushing the envelope. 

[JoJoB3]

19 minutes ago, JazzPiano88 said:

 

 

 

BTW, JoJo should read the sticky on this forum.  Tries to ignite an Apple vs PC/Android religious war on another thread even after the Google twins stole the iPhone from Apple, and then poking at people here.

 

 
I've read, I'm just NOT a fan of that company or their products but know I'm def in the minority in regard.
Is that ok?  How would any of this affect you?
Are YOU ok?

[EscapeRocks]

We’re quite fond of our X32 rack with split snake and P16M’s for our monitor system. 
 

it’s been rock solid and venues from small to festival stages love it. 
 

I was also an early adopter of the Model D and it, too, has been problem free and sounds great. 
so whatever. 

[CyberGene]

5 hours ago, The Real MC said:

No amount of knee-jerk all-encompassing over-generalizing blanket dismissal will minimize the truth about Behringer's reliability and repair history

You’ve missed the context, so let me put it here for you: analog synths (vintage or modern). How’s the reliability of Moog synths? The vintage ones? The modern ones? Rock solid, right? 😀 Over-generalizing about Behringer quality from a crappy mixer you owned 20 years ago won’t change the number of people who have had tons of issues with modern Moog and Sequential synths, just check the reviews. And then compare the price.

[RABid]

10 hours ago, mcgoo said:

I recently bought a System 55. No regrets, no guilt.

Oops. Forgot to mention that I bought a B-2600 and feel the same way. Could in no way afford one. Also have both Behringer and Roland versions of the MiniMoog. Greatly prefer the Roland but it is more expensive.

[Markay]

When the gig pays $100 per person Behringer is your friend.

[allan_evett]

1 hour ago, Markay said:

When the gig pays $100 per person Behringer is your friend.

Yep. Same as 1991...That's why I gigged with A DW-8000 and Prophet-600, vs DX7 and Prophet 5. The DX had to come much later. Getting a little OT, but good point.

[Bill H.]

 

Lifted from another forum - something I'm not proud of. But moral issues aside, I find it astonishingly good for any VCO analog synth - let alone one that costs $399. I think I'm pretty good at analog synthesis, but I haven't a clue how he got the piano sound. 

[Rod S]

On 8/20/2023 at 12:10 AM, Jim Alfredson said:

 

They lie and they try to character assassinate reviewers who give their products bad reviews. The latest example is just a few weeks ago. On their social media, they claimed that loopop (a highly respected synth reviewer on YouTube) doesn't review their synths because they don't give out freebies. He replied saying that wasn't true at all, that he had reviewed their synths before but decided not to review them anymore due to his own ethical concerns about the company, and that he has emails from them offering him free synths.

 

The loopop ordeal was pretty ridiculous.  I would give him the benefit of the doubt anytime over Behringer.  

 

I've made a decision to stop buying behringer gear (I still have one piece I need to integrate out of my setup).    As someone who worked for several years in companies where intellectual property was critical aspect of the business, I can't turn a blind eye to their practices.  YMMV and to each their own.    I do understand, specially in Brazil where purchasing power is much less than Europe in the US (and other similar economics)   cheapest gear is critical.  

 

[David Emm]

I wasn't seeking to start a mini-flame war, I swear! 😬 Its largely nostalgia for me as a Prophet player at several points. Its easy to be impressed with a tabletop P-5, but you understandably pay for what you DO get. If someone else released a P-600/800 for +/-$1000 that had solid pots and a non-membrane programmer, that would be a workhorse and a real keeper. Call it a portion of my remaining GAS. I still have it, but it will no longer inflate a hot air balloon.

 

I've heard more than a few people praise the X32. I also nod to McGoo's enjoyment of his Moog 55 clone-ette. I simply wonder how B managed that or the Deepmind and the rest of the time, the dubious reliability feels about as welcome as a wet hamburger. I'll gladly bow to my lack of knowledge in terms of parts sourcing, quality control and other such practicalities, but a number of lesser synths seem pretty tough, sooo.... 

 

All the same, praise Dave. Until I got into softsynths, I never heard anything that could quite match a Prophet pad and even that often requires 2 or 3 instances of this or that. A brilliant man of good principles.            

[David Emm]

5 hours ago, Bill H. said:

Lifted from another forum - something I'm not proud of. But moral issues aside, I find it astonishingly good for any VCO analog synth - let alone one that costs $399. I think I'm pretty good at analog synthesis, but I haven't a clue how he got the piano sound. 

 

Probably from a piano, in some form. Within an octave or two, many analog synths can come close to part of the sound, but break up on either far end. A third oscillator is very helpful, providing some of the characteristic bottom. Being a stringed instrument, tweaking sawtooth waves is likely to be the best place to start. I think my main question would simply be "Why are you trying to make it sound like a piano?" There are few hardware digi-piano modules now, but in software, they're in massive clusters as software, like gnats around a light bulb. Its a worthy enough exercise that can carry over elsewhere.   

 

[Bill H.]

1 hour ago, David Emm said:

 

 I think my main question would simply be "Why are you trying to make it sound like a piano?" There are few hardware digi-piano modules now, but in software, they're in massive clusters as software, like gnats around a light bulb. Its a worthy enough exercise that can carry over elsewhere.   

 

In his case, he's doing it to sell his patch collections! 😀 A programming tour de force - whether useful or not. But piano aside, I'm still impressed with the whole piece. 

 

Way back when (like well over 40 years ago) I seem to remember an article in Keyboard magazine about how to get an acoustic piano sound on a Prophet 5. If I remember right it involved the Poly-Mod section and tuning VCO 2 to an odd interval. The only reason I remember it at all was because I tried it out on my P-600. But since I also had either a CP80 or RD-300s I didn't use it. 

[jazzpiano88]

My guiding principle that has served me well, and goes along with a life of mostly delayed gratification is, "you get what you pay for".

 

[NewImprov]

I'm not a huge fan of Behringer's corporate activities, but I've bought and used a number of their recent synths, and have thus far had good experiences. I have their ARP 2600 clones, and love it, I've wanted a 2600 for decades, and this definitely scratches that itch. Also have their Model D, got on one of their clear-outs, and it sounds remarkably good for a $250 synth, actually like it's bass presence more than my 1974 Mini. Also have one of their GO Euro cases, and it's fine.

 

I'm seriously considering a Pro 800 to act as a desktop expander for my Sequential Take 5.

[Anderton]

People vote with their dollars. Some of the votes are "I won't support a company that conducts business in ways I find amoral." Some of the votes are "It's what I can afford." I think the latter know that most of the time, you get what you pay for.

 

FWIW I was an expert witness in an infringement case against Behinger. The company that claimed infringement won. I'm not sure I can say the dollar amount or give any details, but it was what I could consider a decisive verdict.

 

Again FWIW, the verdict was rendered in a German court. Germany and Sweden are the two most litigious countries in Europe. My understanding is that German courts are not fans of frivolous lawsuits. 

 

I don't have any Behringer gear but I don't condemn those who do. However, I recommend they look elsewhere.

[CyberGene]

1 hour ago, Anderton said:

FWIW I was an expert witness in an infringement case against Behinger. The company that claimed infringement won

You’d be amazed at how many companies are sued for patent infringement and are ordered to pay mind blowing amounts of money. And that happens repeatedly. I’m not saying it’s OK, but pointing the finger only at Behringer is simply unfair. 

[RABid]

Let's be honest here. Which company is worst.

 

Behringer - Copies products of other companies and manufacturers them in China with cheap components so they can sell at a fraction of the original cost.

 

Apple - Purposely breaks older software so users have but buy new software on the app store so that Apple can get a cut. Writes code into their computers so that users cannot upgrade memory, drive space, and now cannot even repair a broken screen. Oh, and don't forget that they write code into device management so that any charger or thunderbolt device you buy has to pay the Apple tax or be listed as unknown, unapproved device.

 

Samsung - Writes code in their phone to track your every move and forward that information to the marketing department. Writes code into their tv's in an attempt to influence you about which channels to watch. Writes code in their DVD player devices to download extra movie trailers for you to watch before you can watch the DVD movie.

 

You cannot be a fan of one of these companies and take the moral high ground about the others.

[CyberGene]

@RABid good points and here’s one more for Microsoft (a quote from Wikipedia):

 

One of the claims was related to having modified Windows 3.1 so that it would not run on DR DOS 6.0 although there were no technical reasons for it not to work. This was caused by the so-called AARD code, some encrypted piece of code, which had been found in a number of Microsoft programs. The code would fake nonsensical error messages if run on DR DOS, like:

 

Non-Fatal error detected: error #2726

Please contact Windows 3.1 beta support

Press ENTER to exit or C to continue

 

If the user chose to press C, Windows would continue to run on DR DOS without problems. There was speculation that the purpose of this code was to create doubts about DR DOS's compatibility and thereby destroy the product's reputation; internal Microsoft memos published as part of the United States v. Microsoft antitrust case later confirmed this.

[M_G]

 

It‘s called „capitalism“.

All those companies want our best: our money.

 

buy it, or not, it‘s our choice….

 

[analogika]

2 hours ago, RABid said:

Apple - Purposely breaks older software so users have but buy new software on the app store so that Apple can get a cut.

 

As resident Fanb0i, I feel the need to weigh in, here. 😉

Apple have never done this. What they do do, regularly, is to deprecate and eventually drop older architecture. They do not "purposely" break software; they give warning and eventually leave it behind. 

This allows them to concentrate their resources on what they need moving forward, rather than supporting every ancient API needed for software that hasn't been supported by developers for many years.

This is why iPhone could move to Apple's own 64-bit processors YEARS before anybody else could. This is why Apple Silicon laptops can be what they are. 

 

It's annoying, but its not aimed at breaking old stuff: That's just a consequence of their development process. FWIW, I have a plugin running on this 2023 M2 Pro that was last updated in 2010. (vacuumsound ADT) It can't be installed, because the developer never got the authorised code signature needed from, what?, 10.15 or so onwards. But it's migrated from machine to machine since then and continues to work just fine.  

Apple also lets you virtualise macOS now, which takes care of some of the bleeding off of old software.

 

2 hours ago, RABid said:

Apple - Writes code into their computers so that users cannot upgrade memory, drive space, and now cannot even repair a broken screen. Oh, and don't forget that they write code into device management so that any charger or thunderbolt device you buy has to pay the Apple tax or be listed as unknown, unapproved device.

 

There has never been an Apple machine with removable RAM that was software-castrated to not be upgradeable.

Drive space: apparently true, for reasons I haven't understood yet.

Display: yep. iPhone 13 won't do Face ID without registering a replacement screen through Apple Configurator. Can't help think there's security reasoning here, because that's what it looks like, but I don't know.
2023 MacBooks Pro lose their TrueTone calibration after unauthorised display replacements. Again, that would make some kind of sense — maybe. But that's through the eyes of a known  apologist. 😉 

Charger: I'd think that's a liability thing — after a number of fires and the odd electrocution that went through the press simply because they involved Apple devices, it turned out that those could generally be traced to crappy third-party power supplies. The electrocution was a shorted cheap USB charger. 

Insisting on authorised charging accessories by popping up a warning when it's not (but still charging) might absolve them of some culpability, here. IANAL, though. 

 

 

2 hours ago, RABid said:

Samsung - Writes code in their phone to track your every move and forward that information to the marketing department. Writes code into their tv's in an attempt to influence you about which channels to watch. Writes code in their DVD player devices to download extra movie trailers for you to watch before you can watch the DVD movie.

 

Don't forget routinely programming their device firmware to recognise test suites and selectively boost performance way beyond normal specs specifically to fool those test suites — they've done this with their cellphones for years, but their TVs also recognise standardised test signals and massively boost brightness etc. depending upon the test. 

[timwat]

3 hours ago, RABid said:

You cannot be a fan of one of these companies and take the moral high ground about the others.

 

RABid, I respect you greatly and of course we're both long-timers here on the forum. In a perfect world where morally perfect humans are 100% consistent their entire lives, yes, that statement would hold. But only in a world ruled by airtight logical tautology; and this is not that world. Complex contemporary life leads me to pick and choose my battles, and I don't think this makes me morally inconsistent - it means I seek to be the best version of myself in every conscious choice, knowing that opportunity cost and a dearth of options means in many cases I'll choose a less-than-ideal path. I choose to get my electricity from a morally-questionable utility because of a monopoly I cannot change, and a prior decision that living off the grid isn't acceptable for my family. I use Crest toothpaste. I own a Samsung TV. I am typing this on an Apple laptop.

 

And I choose not to use Uber (I use Lyft instead), and I choose not to purchase Behringer products. I don't think I've ever on this forum told anyone else what to do about this choice, nor do I have anything to say to anyone who decides to make a different choice. It's your choice to make, not mine.

 

But I'm a firm believer that in this imperfect version of a market system that we live with, I vote with my wallet and eventually, votes matter. 

 

I understand better than some that organizations are hardly monolithic. They are made up of many individuals; some of whom are undoubtedly great women and men, and some of whom, if I knew them personally, I probably wouldn't want to have coffee with. I also realize that and one might question whether the ethical behavior of an organization's leaders ipso facto suggests a lack of utility or quality in the organization's products.

 

But I try, imperfectly, to support companies that seem to be trying to support a healthy corporate culture and business ethic. And I try, imperfectly, to not vote for companies that seem to represent an ethic and perspective on business that I fight against in my practice, my teaching, my consulting, and my mentorship. 

 

I still use Crest toothpaste (that I bought at Costco), a Samsung TV (which I think I also bought at Costco), and this Apple laptop (which I think I bought....at Costco). Whatever one thinks of Crest, Samsung, or Apple, generally I'm a fan of Costco and their corporate culture (as you might have surmised by now). 

 

And maybe if, historically, the only and one creator of the Hammond B3 happened to be Behringer...maybe we all would feel differently LOL

 

But knowing what I think I know about the history of Behringer, I respectfully decline to purchase or own any of their products at this time. I don't mind saying that on this forum, and would again note I'm not casting any aspersions at any forum sister or brother who decides to make a different choice. 

 

And we are all, each and every one of us, voting for the kind of world we want to live in with our wallets. It's a relatively small vote, true. But we vote. Every. Single. Time.

[RABid]

Well, I own a M1 Air, M2 Mini, M1 MacBookPro, and M2 iPad Pro. I own two Samsung curves and a Samsung BluRay player but returned my Samsung phone after I noticed it tracking my every move when I went on vacation. I own the Behringer 2600, MiniD, and a few Eurorack modules. When I was sitting Olive Garden while on vacation my new Samsung phone sent me a message saying "Olive Garden accepts Samsung Pay. You should use Samsung Pay." I got online and found that at that time there was no way to turn off those messages. After enduring a week of that while on vacation I took my phone back to the store and went back to Apple. When I realized that my Samsung BR Player was downloading movie previews and pushing on me while not letting me skip them and move on the the movie, I disconnected all Samsung devices from the internet. I will never buy anything Samsung again. 

 

Apple make me the maddest overall because I have used them since the early 90's and remember how the company used to be. They went from being green and customer friendly to the greediest company I could ever imagine. When they started breaking so many programs on the iPad app store I, like many others, started looking to buy older ipads that had not been updated. Quite a market developed for those old iPads, then Apple shut that door by removing the old programs from their servers. That bothers me almost as much as them writing code to prevent upgrades of memory, storage or replacing screens in the new computers. While it is easy to say no more Samsun purchases ever, it is a bit harder for me to say no more Apple. I have decided not to bother with Logic even though I just bought a M2 iPad for that purpose. I will stick to programs that are not locked to Apple only.

[Dave Bryce]

21 hours ago, Anderton said:

I don't have any Behringer gear but I don't condemn those who do. However, I recommend they look elsewhere.

 

          

 

dB

[GRollins]

I find it curious that people assume a mantle of moral superiority regarding Behringer's use of other peoples' circuits. Well, fair enough, I'm all in favor of supporting IP (especially having had some of my stories stolen)...but...

 

Do those same people also condemn other companies with the same vehemence? How about ARP's appropriation of the Moog ladder filter? Surely those people hate ARP, right? "Never buy ARP," they declaim, fist brandished against the sky. "They stole Moog's intellectual property."

 

I suppose that Behringer's 2600 must give them hives...the dreaded 2600, with its stolen ladder filter, in an iteration from the thrice-damned Behringer Corporation, purveyor of stolen ideas. And to top it all off, Behringer had the brazen effrontery to have the filter as a front panel switchable option. Egad! A double dose of righteous indignation!

 

There are several potential reasons for the condemnation of Behringer, but I think it mostly boils down to a certain pile-on mentality. Once a company reaches a certain threshold of haters, it becomes fashionable for others to join the bandwagon and hate them too. There are some valid complaints about Behringer, but if people were intellectually honest they'd have to admit that other companies have done the same or worse.

 

...or you could just blame it on the ugly logo...

 

Grey