Have you gone from hardware stage keyboard to an iPad and controller setup for bread and butter piano/keyboard sounds? How did it go?

[CHarrell]

2 hours ago, The Piano Man said:

Despite my frustrations about an IOS setup, this thread is making me think I should try and persevere…

 

Does anyone know any way of getting a Volume Pedal to control iFretless but not to control Ravenscroft IOS? I cannot see where to disable the volume pedal on Ravenscroft IOS. I only want it on the bass sound coming via iFretless. 

 

Thanks in anticipation!

 

 

Okay I wonder if I can answer this just by sheer osmosis of the info I've been getting on this thread. 😂 If you're using a host app such as AUM, are you able to set a filter that would block CC7 or 11 from getting sent to Ravenscroft? Is there no MIDI/CC settings page in Ravenscroft you can tweak?

35 minutes ago, Reezekeys said:

The 9G iPad is often discounted from Apple's $329. I got it for $270 at Best Buy.

 

I think it's $250 on Amazon right now!

[Baldwin Funster]

I'd suggest spending the extra and getting 256g in memory. You probably won't use half of 

that but you won't ever worry about it either. And you can't upgrade later. 

[Reezekeys]

Every AUM channel that contains a virtual instrument has these options to filter or modify the midi data the instrument receives: channel, note range, transposition, any/all control changes, plus all the message types you see here.

 

[kanefsky]

I'd suggest getting literally any other iPad (Mini, 10th gen, Air, Pro) because they all have USB-C and you won't need that silly CCK.  You'll save $39, won't have the ugly extra dongle, everything will work more reliably, better performance, better resale/trade-in value, more screen real-estate (except the Mini).

 

Lightning is going away even on the iPhone and the 9th gen is the last iPad that has it.

[CHarrell]

1 minute ago, kanefsky said:

I'd suggest getting literally any other iPad (Mini, 10th gen, Air, Pro) because they all have USB-C and you won't need that silly CCK.  You'll save $39, won't have the ugly extra dongle, everything will work more reliably, better performance, better resale/trade-in value, more screen real-estate (except the Mini).

 

Lightning is going away even on the iPhone and the 9th gen is the last iPad that has it.

 

I already have a CCK to use for my mini4, is the 10th gen a big upgrade over 9th? I am not in the Apple shackl--ecosystem .

[kanefsky]

2 minutes ago, CHarrell said:

 

I already have a CCK to use for my mini4, is the 10th gen a big upgrade over 9th? I am not in the Apple shackl--ecosystem .

 

The 10th gen has the A14 chip (vs A13), a 10.9" screen (vs 10.2"), Wi-Fi 6 (vs Wi-Fi 5) in the same-size package.

 

The Mini has the A15 chip, an 8.3" screen, and Wi-Fi 6 in a significantly smaller package.

 

There's a few other differences in available colors, support for Magic Keyboard, 5G vs 4G cellular option, better camera, etc.

[CHarrell]

15 minutes ago, kanefsky said:

 

The 10th gen has the A14 chip (vs A13), a 10.9" screen (vs 10.2"), Wi-Fi 6 (vs Wi-Fi 5) in the same-size package.

 

The Mini has the A15 chip, an 8.3" screen, and Wi-Fi 6 in a significantly smaller package.

 

There's a few other differences in available colors, support for Magic Keyboard, 5G vs 4G cellular option, better camera, etc.

 

But then wouldn't I have to get an adapter or interface to output audio to a PA or amp? I'm also trying to be budget conscious here.

[kanefsky]

3 minutes ago, CHarrell said:

But then wouldn't I have to get an adapter or interface to output audio to a PA or amp? I'm also trying to be budget conscious here.

 

If you get one of the USB hubs with a built-in 3.5mm audio output then it's basically identical to using the built-in headphone jack in an older iPad.  The DAC is just inside the hub instead of inside the iPad.

 

[CHarrell]

6 minutes ago, kanefsky said:

 

If you get one of the USB hubs with a built-in 3.5mm audio output then it's basically identical to using the built-in headphone jack in an older iPad.  The DAC is just inside the hub instead of inside the iPad.

 

Gooootcha. I'll have to look more into what the actual difference between A13 and A14 is.

[kanefsky]

8 minutes ago, CHarrell said:

Gooootcha. I'll have to look more into what the actual difference between A13 and A14 is.

 

Geekbench scores are 1693 vs 2059 (single-core CPU)

3732 vs 4915 (multi-core CPU)

13463 vs 16207 (Metal GPU)

[Reezekeys]

The consensus I heard was that the 10G iPad did not justify the hefty price increase over the 9G. Your CCK won't work with it (it's USB-C). The processor bump over the 9G will likely not be noticeable in real-world applications. It's the newer design with thinner bezels, and it's true that USB-C is the future and lightning is going away, though I expect the cables and accessories to be available for years.

 

Tough call for sure! All I know is my 9G with the base memory (64GB) quickly loads my AUM setup with a multitude of virtual instruments including sampled pianos totaling almost 2GB in size, lots of EQs, reverbs, mp3 backing tracks, etc. I use it for general media consumption too - youtube, photos. I have about 20GB free. Very happy with the performance.

[kanefsky]

9 minutes ago, Reezekeys said:

Your CCK won't work with it (it's USB-C).

 

That's the whole point.  You don't need a big ugly dongle to add USB support because it's built-in.  Even with the CCK, USB support is much trickier on old Lightning-based iPads because of power-draw issues.

 

[AnotherScott]

1 hour ago, kanefsky said:

That's the whole point.  You don't need a big ugly dongle to add USB support because it's built-in.  

 

Since you need USB MIDI connection, Audio out connection, and ideally a charging connector as well, you end up needing a dongle of some sort no matter which way you go.

 

With lightning, you'd get the USB 3 CCK from Apple... it gives you the USB port and the charging port, and you can use the headphone jack for audio out.

 

With USB-C, you'll need to get something that gives you the USB port and the charging port and the audio out jack, which means some non-Apple (and larger) piece.

[kanefsky]

20 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

 

Since you need USB MIDI connection, Audio out connection, and ideally a charging connector as well, you end up needing a dongle of some sort no matter which way you go.

 

Yes but in many cases you need 2 dongles on the Lightning iPad versus 1 dongle on the USB-C iPad.  The only way to get by with just a single dongle on the Lightning iPad is if you only need a single USB device which doesn't draw any non-trivial amount of power and you only want to use the built-in headphone jack for audio.  On the USB-C iPad you can have a single dongle and get several USB ports, audio, charging, plenty of power for all USB devices, etc.  You also have a choice of many brands and types of dongles with different form factors and capabilities.

 

 

[CHarrell]

On 8/7/2023 at 11:11 AM, Reezekeys said:

Also, I would miss the ability to program any kind of custom preset or setup. There are things I do on the AWB gig such as triggering and stopping loops, also controlling some effects, I'm almost positive could never be done with hardware boards. Then again, I'm weird - I enjoy programming this stuff! 🙂 

 

I happened to stumble back on this page, I'd be really curious to hear some examples of you doing this. : )

 

 

 

All very good points above, gentlemen. If I get an ES110 instead of 120, that'll save me $200ish which I could then possibly pony towards a newer iPad, after I weigh the pros and cons. 

[wereMole88]

No Ipad so I'm not sure if counts but here's my conversion: 

 

Started playing in an all-round poprock coverband in 2015. Back then I bought a second hand Nord Stage EX88 and a Nord Lead 2x. A couple years later I got myself Reason intro and used sparingly as a third sound module running on an old Windows laptop. This was basically my first DAW and its whole design, look and sound caught my interest.

 

During the corona lockdowns I've redesigned my live setup to fully rely on Reason for sounds. I find sound design in a digital environment much easier as it's way simpler to include background tracks, tools, visualizers for frequencies/LFOs, players/sequencers. Bought two brand new keyboards for less than the price of my Nord Stage EX second hand which are lighter and easier to transport. 

 

However the absolute best aspect of this is the Combinator which is basically a 'patch' in which I can store any amount of synths, samplers, sequencers, MIDI tools, keyboard splits and assigned midi controls.  Save and then recall on command. So my setlist is just a list of combinators I load and then play.

Since last year I've switched to Reason+ so I've now got the full DAW for 10€/month. I've got no VSTs or anything, it's all reason instruments and rack extensions that were specifically designed to use in reason.

 

Got it running on a Dell XPS 15 that's running Bome Midi Translator for all the MIDI routing and reason for the sounds. Got a dock so all just plug 1 cable in the laptop for everything. Just two USB cables for MIDI and sustain/control pedal/foot switch. I've got a black gator soft case for my laptop, power supply, dock, audio interface, IEM headphone amplifier all prewired so setup and startup is fast. 

 

So far it's been a pleasant experience to no longer have to deal with hardware restrictions and limitations and have it all contained in a virtual environment with seemingly limitless options to program it however simple or complex I want it to be.

One of my keyboards does have a bunch of basic sounds (it's the new numa piano 73). During actual live performances I plug this into my UMC audio interface and I can switch to this failsafe sound module by just turning one knob on it. So far I haven't need it yet. I'm thinking of investing in another laptop as a backup - the one I have was second hand and I've used it for 5 years already. 

 

Part of what I enjoy is sound creation and being creative in the sounds/compositions I contribute. For just 3-4 bread/butter sounds I'd say hardware all the way but for anything more complex software has been a blessing.

[Reezekeys]

11 hours ago, CHarrell said:

On 8/7/2023 at 2:11 PM, Reezekeys said:

Also, I would miss the ability to program any kind of custom preset or setup. There are things I do on the AWB gig such as triggering and stopping loops, also controlling some effects, I'm almost positive could never be done with hardware boards. Then again, I'm weird - I enjoy programming this stuff! 🙂 

 

I happened to stumble back on this page, I'd be really curious to hear some examples of you doing this. : )

 

I might throw a little video together to demonstrate, as what I do entails using more tools than what's in AUM. My setup wouldn't be possible without Midiflow (a midi processor/router) and Streambyter (a kind of programming language for midi).

[AnotherScott]

11 hours ago, kanefsky said:

The only way to get by with just a single dongle on the Lightning iPad is if you only need a single USB device which doesn't draw any non-trivial amount of power and you only want to use the built-in headphone jack for audio.

I haven't found "which doesn't draw any non-trivial amount of power" to be an issue, because any time I use a controller, it has its own power anyway. Most of the controllers that draw power from the iPad are soundless controllers, and I always use boards that also have their own sounds in them. I also don't think using the built-in headphone jack is any worse than using a USB dongle that has its own 1/8" audio jack. So what you describe as "the only way to get by" is, I think, a very common use case.

 

But if you do want the features of a USB hub, plugging one into the Apple CCK (USB to lightning adapter) doesn't really "feel" to me like more gear than plugging one into a USB-C port. You'd just leave the adapter cable (the CCK) permanently attached to the cable that's attaching the hub. I don't think that merely eliminating that adapter is a compelling reason to go one way or the other. That said, if your intent is to add something that has an audio connection (making the older iPad's headphone jack redundant), you might as well go with the newer, faster device, since you've eliminated the older model's advantage. The advantage of the older one is that, for many people, no hub is needed (a hub typically being a more awkward thing to deal with and place than a CCK adapter, which, as I said, could simply be left permanently attached to whatever cable you're running into it).

[kanefsky]

There are lots of USB devices that draw power, so you're really limiting yourself if your setup can't support any of those.  Note that if you have to daisy-chain a second dongle to get USB power then you'll probably also need a separate power adapter for the hub rather than being able to use the one that powers the iPad.

 

The headphone jack isn't worse than a typical dongle with a 1/8" audio jack, but you're stuck with it versus having the option to plug into an audio interface in addition to the keyboard.  

 

If your keyboard supports USB audio and you're OK with running on battery power for the duration of the gig then you can actually get by with ZERO dongles on the USB-C iPad and just have one USB cable running from the iPad to the keyboard and absolutely nothing else.

 

There are many other advantages to the USB-C iPad, such as significantly better performance, bigger, higher-resolution screen (without the iPad itself being bigger), better camera/video, faster Wi-Fi, and of course higher resale value.

[Reezekeys]

I guess we're all trying to present our own use cases for why the lightning/CCK or USB-C/hub systems are better. My last comment on this is - first, I'm cheap: always looking for the best bang for the minimum buck. $270 for a brand new iPad that very comfortably runs my AUM setup, with CPU power to spare, was a big motivator in my purchase decision! Secondly, I'm lucky: I need to only attach my one controller keyboard to the CCK - and my iPad's 20-watt adapter powers both it and the iPad. Headphone out to my two powered PA speakers and I'm done. I've powered both these guys from a 10,000 mAh battery bank as well.

 

Of course I wish for a "cleaner" look and less dangly dongles, cables & such - but is it really that bad? Now that I've been doing this a while, my honest answer is no. What starts out as a PITA gets easier the more you do it. I leave the cables connected to the CCK when I travel to gigs, even the power cube stays connected. It takes seconds to hook up once I clip the iPad to the stand.

 

 

If I had the money I would get the 12.9" iPad Pro because I also use forScore for quite a few gigs. Then I would probably need a different clip or mounting method, or maybe have to carry a separate stand. But really - $1100 vs $270? Maybe somewhere down the road. Pick your poison, decide on what compromises you can live with, make the best of what you got, etc. As far as I'm concerned this cheap little iPad kicks ass and I'm actually surprised that it does what it does so well.

[AnotherScott]

33 minutes ago, kanefsky said:

There are lots of USB devices that draw power, so you're really limiting yourself if your setup can't support any of those.

 

It just never came up as an issue for me. But it's an interesting point... I was not aware that the USB-C based iPads can supply more power to peripherals than the lightning-based iPads do.

 

33 minutes ago, kanefsky said:

The headphone jack isn't worse than a typical dongle with a 1/8" audio jack, but you're stuck with it versus having the option to plug into an audio interface in addition to the keyboard.  

 

You're not "stuck" with it, you still always have the option of adding some external interface, even to a lightning based model. It's the USB-C models that are taking away an option here, not the lightning ones.

 

 

[CHarrell]

13 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

It's the USB-C models that are taking away an option here, not the lightning ones.

 

How so? Also, as stated, I would be using multiple USB-MIDI controllers since the ES is very barebones.

[kanefsky]

21 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

It just never came up as an issue for me. But it's an interesting point... I was not aware that the USB-C based iPads can supply more power to peripherals than the lightning-based iPads do.

 

Not only that, you can even use a USB-C iPad to charge your phone or other devices.

 

[AnotherScott]

23 minutes ago, CHarrell said:

24 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

It's the USB-C models that are taking away an option here, not the lightning ones.

How so?

 

The USB-C models remove the option of being able to get analog audio out of the iPad without an external audio device. Getting audio out of USB-C models requires an external interface of some sort. Lightning models have all the same audio out options as USB-C models, plus one more (the headphone jack). And for some people, that means one less thing to buy, or not needing as much stuff to hang off the device. Having all the same audio options as the USB-C models, plus one more, means that it is the USB-C model that has taken away an option, leaving you with one less, compared to the lightning models. (But of course, that doesn't mean that that additional option is important to everyone.)

[CHarrell]

So I bought 9th gen, I'd need:

 

CCK (which I have)

USB hub for controllers to connect to iPad (the CCK would connect this hub to the iPad)

1/8" to 1/4" Y stereo cable to get stereo from headphone jack to external speaker

 

10th gen:

USB-C hub for controllers to connect to iPad directly, no CCK needed. Some hubs come with audio built-in

audio interface/DAC if hub does not have audio

1/8" to 1/4" Y stereo cable to get stereo from hub or interface to external speaker

 

 

Is this correct?

[kanefsky]

Another configuration worth mentioning is USB-C iPad -> small USB audio interface -> keyboard(s) via 5-pin MIDI.  This wouldn't require any dongles/hubs/CCK and you'd get the benefit of the higher-quality audio and ability to use standard 1/4" or XLR audio cables to the amp/speakers.  It does require that the keyboard(s) support 5-pin MIDI of course.

[kanefsky]

13 minutes ago, CHarrell said:

Is this correct?

 

Sounds about right.  The USB hub with the 9th gen might need its own power adapter, which it may come with but will be another thing to carry around and have to plug in.

[aronnelson]

To me the biggest problem with using a computer or iPad is that you lose all of the huge selection of sounds that a hardware synth gives you. Even if you could access all of your presets on the computer or iPad, it's way slower to load those sounds.

 

If you know you only use x amount of sounds and that's it, the computer or iPad is great.

 

And latency. It's real. Even with an M1 computer with memory, the latency is there compared to a finely tuned hardware synth. Not on all patches, but some.... Usually the ones you need.

 

And as someone else said, on stage, through monitors, I guess it's at the point where hardware keyboards sound very close to software. But if anyone is recording from the board, the software will sound better. 

 

If the gig is really important and indoors, I will try my computer. If not and it's outdoors or we have very little setup time, I'm going hardware.

[stoken6]

3 hours ago, kanefsky said:

Another configuration worth mentioning is USB-C iPad -> small USB audio interface -> keyboard(s) via 5-pin MIDI.  This wouldn't require any dongles/hubs/CCK and you'd get the benefit of the higher-quality audio and ability to use standard 1/4" or XLR audio cables to the amp/speakers.  It does require that the keyboard(s) support 5-pin MIDI of course.

You would not be able to power the iPad with this configuration. (That's why I keep banging on about the need for audio interfaces that support USB Power Delivery).

 

Of course you can get a "USB audio interface" with USB type-A sockets (i.e. a built in USB hub). That removes the 5-pin MIDI requirement. But I haven't found one with USB power delivery.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[AnotherScott]

3 hours ago, CHarrell said:

So I bought 9th gen, I'd need:

 

CCK (which I have)

USB hub for controllers to connect to iPad (the CCK would connect this hub to the iPad)

1/8" to 1/4" Y stereo cable to get stereo from headphone jack to external speaker

 

10th gen:

USB-C hub for controllers to connect to iPad directly, no CCK needed. Some hubs come with audio built-in

audio interface/DAC if hub does not have audio

1/8" to 1/4" Y stereo cable to get stereo from hub or interface to external speaker

 

 

Is this correct?

It could be correct. 😉

 

You're connecting two controllers, right? What are their available MIDI connectors (5-pin or USB)? 

 

For MIDI, bluetooth is also usually viable, at least with the CME WIDI devices. That provides some other options, which may obviate the need for a hub, if the only reason you need it is to connect the two controllers.