Rhythm ideas for duo

[Stokely]

Bear with me, this is kind of an odd topic and (maybe) this isn't the most ideal forum for this...I know because we normally talk about things I'm way more familiar with, namely keyboards used in classic rock etc.!

My keys-playing buddy and I are kicking around ideas for a duo, nothing too serious.  We are both in classic rock bands and want to try having some fun and maybe gigs doing a two-keyboard thing.   I have to say that I'm *much* more inclined to want guitar for a duo, but neither of us play that well.  So we went through various songs to see how they might work with two keyboards.  

Neither of us want to use tracks.  I'm very strongly against using them--if we can't pull things off ourselves, then time to not play IMO.   That said, the fakeness of tracks is kind of a sliding scale of dislike, I'll explain in a bit.   I'll very, very grudgingly (maybe) accept his harmonizer pedal, especially if it's used in a more special effect way.

He plays left-hand bass in his band but we both agreed was that without drums, a jumpy "normal" bass just sounds odd doing pop/rock songs in acoustic format.    Then he made a suggestion, and ironically I was kicking around the same possibility days earlier--instead of doing MTV-acoustic-style versions of songs, why not lean in to the electronic 80s?  My voice is very suited for groups like Simple Minds etc.   So we started discussing the idea of having possibly a drum machine that I could play on as well as kick off preset patterns.  Yes, this is sorta getting into "tracks" territory but especially if you are doing Depeche Mode or something and the sounds are electronic, it's not like you are taking the place of a drummer   

He has a MatrixBrute that he hasn't been using in a band, and I could see using arps from that as long as it could sync with the drums (say if we wanted to do sunglasses at night or similar song.)

So if we do that sort of thing, I can think of a few options.  This is way out of my wheelhouse and I'm curious to see what you all might come up with.
Option 1 would be a traditional drum machine, ideally with pads that I can play.   The funnest scenario would be actually making the beats on the fly as we play and then have them continue as I turn to my keyboard (or possibly even guitar down the road, I'm working on it!)

OPtion 2 - use a laptop...and that's where I get unsure.   I could potentially use Logic's drummer but that's sort of just playing preset patterns, and I guess I'd need to open a new Project for each song.  I have no experience with the clips that (I think) are now in Logic and are (I think) similar to what Ableton Live is known for.   If there are clips/patterns, then maybe I get one of those grid pad midi controllers to kick these off.  No idea of how all that works, I've used sequencers for ages but always in traditional track view.

I really like the idea of playing in the patterns loop-style vs just doing "here's the pattern for that song, hit play."  If we hit a break in the song, I'd like to actually have to turn things off/stop.   In other words, I'd prefer not to have to program every song out down to the fill, that's the kind of stale thing I'm trying to avoid.

All this said, we still plan on doing the more acoustic songs too.  For example, we played through Nights in White Satin, Turn the Page, Drive by both Cars and Incubus    None of those really need drums though it would certainly make playing the Cars' drive easier  

[ElmerJFudd]

Tech is tech. Once you decide an element isn’t going to be played live, pick what works and sounds best for the act.  

[ProfD]

A duo is already a different band configuration. 

 

Approach the repertoire in a similar manner.  Come up with song arrangements within your capabilities. 

 

Use your MODX for rhythm parts/tracks. 

 

Keep it simple. Have fun.😎

[Stokely]

Yeah, I was planning to use my Nord Stage 3 (used as the only keyboard in gigs these days, with Modx in reserve).   The Modx has a problem with one output, it could work mono but we were planning on going stereo.   I kind of forgot it has a sequencer and of course drums so I appreciate the idea!  He has a Fantom-0 as well as a mojo and Nord stage 3 as well.

Foremost in our minds is what you just said--stay within capabilities.  Vocally, there's a lot of stuff I can't do, I'm a baritone.  We can drop keys but there's a limit to that, I'm not going to be singing Journey a half-octave down....We are good rhythm keys players, certainly not "dueling piano" guys but there's a lot we should be able to cover.

What's really funny is that I owned an Alesis SR16 for at least 20 years without using it, finally sold it.  If I get a drum machine, I'd prefer one with bigger pads that I could actually play.  Looking at the Arturia Drum Brute as a possibility for instance.  The bad part is that I won't get use of it at home, I'm all "in the box" with logic pro.

[D. Gauss]

You'd be surprised how effective kick on 1 & 3 and snare on 2 & 4 with no hats is in this situation.  i.e. one simple beat for everything, no hats, no fills, just change the tempo to taste and keep it lower than normal in the mix, and use regular drums sounds not bombastic 80's cannons. 

no programming involved, can do straight time, or shuffle, swing, or country 2-beat without changing anything but tempo. plus you're free to play parts (especially the bass) in all the holes without the drums telling you what to do.  

[Stokely]

Yep, that is kind of the idea for drums as we (so far) have envisioned.  Not trying to replicate what a drummer would do completely.   Just something to move things along and let us play off it.

I've even given thought to getting a cajon even though I've played no percussion ever other than from a keyboard!   However, I have played annoying hand and finger drumming for decades much to the annoyance of everyone in the car, and from what I've seen of cajons I believe I could take to it quickly.  i'd have to have it on something in front of me, no way I'd want to slouch over one, my back hurts just looking at those people playing like that.

The cajon idea would obviously be for more of an organic sound, whereas now we are considering this electronic project.   Opens up songs like Cars by Gary Numan and a lot of fun stuff from the 80s.

[JamPro]

IMO, the way to do a keyboard duo is Hammond and AP.  Just Hammond and AP (ok add vocals for given songs) for all songs: no tracks; no drums; just Hammond and AP.  The trick then becomes song choice, not song arrangement.

 

I'm not suggesting you restrict yourself to Hammond and AP (unless you like my idea).  But I do think carefully choosing which songs to take on and which to avoid will be important for a successful duo.

 

 

[Tusker]

2 hours ago, Stokely said:

I've even given thought to getting a cajon even though I've played no percussion ever other than from a keyboard!   However, I have played annoying hand and finger drumming for decades much to the annoyance of everyone in the car, and from what I've seen of cajons I believe I could take to it quickly.  i'd have to have it on something in front of me, no way I'd want to slouch over one, my back hurts just looking at those people playing like that.
 

 Just piggy backing off D. Gauss idea and yours...  You could automate the Kick/snare and play hi-hat etc. with your fingers as you feel moved. If your buddy is doing the LH bass and you are doing percussive comping parts, you could also map some hi hat regions or the occasional crash. I find it fun to just play a few patterns by hand from time to time. There is an extra octave on a keyboard somewhere ...

 

Logic's clips are very good,  but if you are a player it feels a bit lame to be triggering clips every 4 measures. At least that's how it feels to me when I try it. I especially hate having to hit a clip button at a point of transition when my hands want to do something. Does either of you feel comfortable using your feet to trigger clips?

 

If you have a looper you could use that as well and that has a certain flow. It has it's own skill set though ...

[Stokely]

Funny you ask that, we were talking about using our feet.  My buddy is way better at doing multiple things than I am; I can barely sing and play at the same time, and even then depends greatly on the part.   I suck at playing drums mainly because my feet aren't good and I can't dance, hell I don't even tap my foot in time when I play    I'll also be standing most likely, more comfy standing than sitting when singing.   I can keep rhythm with hands and fingers just fine, so something like a cajon, or drum machine or drums from keys would work fine.

Leaning toward something I can both play and let run, which means a drum machine or looper.   We are going to keep things as simple as possible at first at least.

[ProfD]

54 minutes ago, JamPro said:

IMO, the way to do a keyboard duo is Hammond and AP.  Just Hammond and AP (ok add vocals for given songs) for all songs: no tracks; no drums; just Hammond and AP.  The trick then becomes song choice, not song arrangement.

 

I'm not suggesting you restrict yourself to Hammond and AP (unless you like my idea).  But I do think carefully choosing which songs to take on and which to avoid will be important for a successful duo.

That's cool but nowadays, keyboards can do so much more than organ and piano. 

 

Having access to a variety of sounds opens up possibilities when it comes to song arrangement.

 

As a keyboard playing duo, I would recommend they stick to playing KB parts and singing. 

 

Automate the rhythm parts.  No need to put extra work into playing percussion too. 

 

Both KB players should bring their full rig to the gig though.  Looks better on stage. 😎

[RABid]

What I learned from the 80's and is still true today, the audience does not care if you use a drum machine, computer sequencer, tape, etc... If you play the songs they want to hear, play them well, and make them feel it, all else is forgotten. I've used drum machines on stage even when the band had a drummer because it fit the song and made it better. The audience does not care who plays drums. They want a singer who is entertaining and will sometimes appreciate a good solo. Everything else is support. It is competitive out there. You may get by with using noting but a straight snare and bass, for a while. But another two piece will come along using an Akai MPC or Roland MC or Ableton Live and they will kick butt. Compared to them it will sound like you are holding back, because you are. My advice, either got for it and go all the way, or define yourself as a piano duo and own it. I've seen some piano duos that were very entertaining. Bobby McKeys is doing well.

[Bill H.]

4 hours ago, RABid said:

What I learned from the 80's and is still true today, the audience does not care if you use a drum machine, computer sequencer, tape, etc... If you play the songs they want to hear, play them well, and make them feel it, all else is forgotten. I've used drum machines on stage even when the band had a drummer because it fit the song and made it better. The audience does not care who plays drums. They want a singer who is entertaining and will sometimes appreciate a good solo.

 

I could have easily quoted everything RABid said, but this to me is the most important. I started out in the 1980s playing piano bars, then a few years later added a drum machine on a few songs. That went over well, so a few years later I added a sequencer. Then I didn't have to set up drum patterns between songs, change them mid song, or even play LH bass, which freed up what I could do considerably. A few year later I added a tone module, and laid down a few pads.

 

No one gave a shit about any of these things. In your case, they will not care if you use a harmonizer pedal or cover the part with a backing track. It may feel like crossing a line to you, but it means nothing to them. 

 

BY FAR the most important thing is being natural, singing and playing well, and not letting electronics break the flow of a set. For me, each step I took meant less fiddling around between songs - a very good thing! Whatever route you choose - anything from simple drum patterns to full blown sequences and backing tracks - try to keep the "housekeeping" part on stage as invisible as possible, and the rooms will be with you.  Best of luck Stokely... I hope this goes well! 

[Stokely]

They might not, I do.    As both a patron and musician I don't enjoy the automation in today's performances and don't want to be a part of it (and I can afford to die on this hill since music in general is not my profession, and this isn't even my primary gig  )

In general I agree with much that has been said.  We will pick songs that we can do, and do well.  No fiddling with tech, which is why the fallback option no matter what we add to the thing will be "we play our keyboards".    If the drum machine breaks, or more likely there is user error, fine play the song without it.   I think even with one, we'd still do a fair number of songs without a beat happening, but who knows.   I see playing the percussion (drum machine, cajon) as part of the fun potentially, not something that we add a big huge sound on top of.

My regular band had one of our "big" (ie, more corporate gigs) last night, and the sound guy was very late due to a "staff meeting" (wtf...hope it wasn't about how to do your job more efficiently.)  The bass player didn't really get to test everything, he goes direct like all of us and lo and behold we went to start at 7pm and his rig didn't work at all.  Out to his car he went for his other pedalboard, but our contract said 7...so we started with me holding down a semi-bass part on a song that was very guitar-centric.   In short, the show must go on and on time, and stuff breaking is a poor excuse.  We go from song to song unless we are talking with the crowd and we don't do much of that unless there is a reason (venue has announcements, birthday mentioned by someone so we give them a shout-out etc.).  Otherwise, bang bang from song to song, everyone has the list and you'd better be ready with patches!  All that blather to say that we'd be shooting for the same.

 

There most definitely will be a fair amount of piano, that's pretty clear from our first practice together...not sure how organ is going to work.  These will be pop/rock tunes done MTV acoustic style--either that, or full-on 80s electronic stuff--neither of us can play jazz or have nearly the chops to do a dueling piano thing, and frankly that doesn't interest me anyway.   Looking for more of a Jackson Browne sitting with his acoustic or on the piano thing (unless we do that 80s idea) except with two of us.

[Konnector]

I've long had the "no backing tracks" attitude, BUT this really only applied to big name acts that cost $$$ for a ticket to see them. I want to see them all play & sing if I'm paying big bucks for a ticket. 

 

As far as using them in a duo act in a pub/club, etc., nobody cares these day... Actually, nobody ever cared when it comes to solo/duo acts. If I ever went that route as a musician I wouldn't care either. I'd employ backing tracks (and/or midi) for drums 'n bass and play/sing over top. A guitarist and keyboardist that both sing well can take that setup a long way and shouldn't feel like they're cheating.

[timwat]

Somewhere in the continuum between dueling pianos, live loopers and full backing tracks lies an adventure that won't violate your inner convictions. I personally don't have a "no backing tracks" mandate, but that doesn't really matter since you're the one asking, not me LOL

 

Given what you've already said, my only suggestion would be first approach this as a dueling piano act - Make sure the song's the thing (to quote Shakespeare) - and as long as you can "sell" the song with all its emotion, the rest of the tech you can add will be gravy. 

 

I've been blown away by great dueling piano duos - the ability to make a simple ostinato hold court while you tell jokes, take audience requests, allow your partner to prep for the next tune, or how the "second" can use the full orchestral capability of a piano to allow the "lead" to provide color - man, that approach could be hella entertaining with more than acoustic 88s at your disposal.

 

Sounds like you and your partner are going to have a great time - if you're of the mind, maybe you can record a vid of what you end up trying and let us all see!

[Cabo]

I'd think about adding a percussionist.  That would open things up considerably (if you get the right person) and avoid the backing tracks issue, which would be a huge time investment.

[Lou_NC]

As an old fart and a strong believer in the KISS principle, I'd suggest noodling around with a vintage "drum machine" like my Yamaha RX15 (or similar).  https://reverb.com/marketplace?query=yamaha rx15  

 

I've had one of these since the early 80's and still use it for solo practice at times.  It has large enough, clearly marked "pads" so that you can "play it" in real-time as well as run it with programmed patterns.  

 

Lou

[Stokely]

Thanks for the all the suggestions, and I didn't mean to sidetrack on the tracks thing.   As Stan used to say, 'nuff said. 

Lou_NC, that is a good plan.  We can expand later if we want.  I have a personal goal of (finally) playing some guitar live on stage and this would be a good chance to maybe do a bit of simple strumming while singing.   I kick myself for not sticking with it, I have guitar recordings (done at home) 10 years ago and I'm worse now than I was then because I don't practice it.  Don't look back, you can never look back as Don Henley sang.

I've owned several drum machines of that genre and programmed others in studios, I'm a bit leery of used due to the pads maybe being worn out.   Right now the Arturia Drum Brute Impact would probably be the choice if I went that way.  It doesn't have samples so it avoids what I'd call the "uncanny valley" where stuff sounds real enough to be cheesy.  Cabo, definitely adding a percussionist would be great in some ways.    I'll keep my eyes and mind open on that.   

[stoken6]

What would be cool is live-programming a percussion/drum track with a looper - either acoustic instruments (shaker, tambourine, cajon etc.) or on a SPX/Octapad-style device. Let that run while you switch to keys/guitar. 

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Bill H.]

23 hours ago, Stokely said:

In general I agree with much that has been said.  We will pick songs that we can do, and do well.  No fiddling with tech, which is why the fallback option no matter what we add to the thing will be "we play our keyboards".    If the drum machine breaks, or more likely there is user error, fine play the song without it. 

Throughout the night, I'd include a few songs that were just me singing and accompanying myself on piano. Sometimes more sometimes less depending on the room, but the change of pace was usually well received - and often danced to more than the augmented uptempo stuff. It was the kind of stuff that I really couldn't pull off with full bands, but in the smaller more relaxed single and duo rooms it fit right in. I think you're on the right track.  

[Mighty Motif Max]

There are two ways I’ve done this type of thing without tracks in the past - granted, this only covers a kick, really. Method A is using an electronic drum module and a kick trigger pedal and playing that totally live - this is what I end up doing most of the time.

 

Method B is mapping a single kick drum sample to layer with part of your key ranges - I typically would do the lower three octaves of an 88 or so. This does mean your left hand needs to be a little more basic to keep time, but can be more than enough in many situations - I have done this quite a bit in the past when we were short musicians at my church. Usually a basic LH bass can be done simultaneously as well - not as fancy as when you aren’t holding the rhythm down too, but serviceable. This isn’t a true split - you would layer it with your bottom piano octaves, for example.

 

Method B would also open up the possibility for getting a snare sample in. You could do a velocity-limited kick and snare where the snare only comes in at a high velocity. Maybe map a crash cymbal sample to your lowest (or highest) note for occasional use. I wouldn’t try to go beyond that with hihats and such as that’s going to get difficult to play while also playing keys parts!

[RABid]

If you get a drum machine or beat box make sure it has song mode. And look for the number of song memory slots are available. I've seen units with no song mode, and units with as little as 4 memory slots for songs. Neither are acceptable.

[Stokely]

4 hours ago, stoken6 said:

What would be cool is live-programming a percussion/drum track with a looper - either acoustic instruments (shaker, tambourine, cajon etc.) or on a SPX/Octapad-style device. Let that run while you switch to keys/guitar. 

 

Cheers, Mike.

This is kind of the thing I envision, if we go beyond "two guys with keyboards and mics".  We'll always have that, and no matter what will probably do some of that as Bill H suggests.  

Watching a demo for the drum brute, the performer is up there making "phat beats" playing things in on the fly, which of course quantize nicely, and that looks kind of fun.   Then again, hard to actually see the action from the audience perspective.  Anyway, I could see that for a given song--take "Drive" from the cars for example, that's one we practiced--you set the right tempo on the drum machine then play in a simple beat, instead of pulling up a preset for "Drive".  Then we both start playing and singing.   At certain points in songs, since he is playing I'd have freedom to reach over and mute drums, or play in parts (In the air tonight, anyone?), or just stop the pattern for a breakdown.   A bit more live work than just automating everything but also it's more "performance art"   

Loopers, sequences and arps are all things we discussed.    He's got a matrix brute, I have various synths and keyboards, and we both have ipads and computers, but I am aiming for simple.   Our wheelhouse is playing traditional classic rock so as the movie Contact themed...."small steps"   

[EricBarker]

On 7/21/2023 at 7:19 AM, D. Gauss said:

You'd be surprised how effective kick on 1 & 3 and snare on 2 & 4 with no hats is in this situation.  i.e. one simple beat for everything, no hats, no fills, just change the tempo to taste and keep it lower than normal in the mix, and use regular drums sounds not bombastic 80's cannons. 

no programming involved, can do straight time, or shuffle, swing, or country 2-beat without changing anything but tempo. plus you're free to play parts (especially the bass) in all the holes without the drums telling you what to do.  

 

This is true. I remember playing "Sweet Dreams" a few times with two sustain pedals set to kick and snare, and it worked pretty well. The early 80s sound was thanks to Peter Gabriel and Steve Lilywhite, who stole Phil Collin's hat and cymbals away to shake things up, and he eventually adopted it for his own sound. This forced other instruments to take over the ride role and also to allow for some kind of ominous empty space at times. "In the Air Tonight" wouldn't be what it was with cymbals. It's definitely a workable style. I don't think it would work for most of my music which has been described as "flying music". No hat keeps things very grounded and a bit stiff, and sometimes that's exactly what you want. Works very well for Synth New Wave, but would be absolutely awful for jazz, metal, driving prog, or any other genre that really needs to coast.

[yannis D]

I would leave tech outside (synth bass, sequencers etc) and I would just use the 2 acoustic pianos or Rhodes/AP or organ/Rhodes format for the entire repertoire and try to make the songs sound like "mine" in a more organic way

 

[Stokely]

I think what you described (organic) is our original idea, and what we will start off with.  We may add in some synthwave type stuff, we had the same idea as EricBarker that a simple beat that doesn't necessarily sound like real drums would be great for this and maybe for other stuff as well.

Before I shell out for an actual drum machine/groove box, I'm looking at two much cheaper/in hand ways to get things moving in practice.  Instead of my Nord Stage I'm leaning toward my Modx, which sounds great except for b3, but my buddy can play that (and I have B-3X on ipad).  Speaking of, the reason I'd go with the Modx is that I can plug my ipad into it.  I'll need my ipad handy for lyrics if for no other reason!
 

So first possibility is an IOS drum app if it's simple enough.  Currently messing with "Drum Computer" which certainly is complex but might also work in a simple fashion.  I want something with virtual pads, a prominent tempo control, and ways to pull up patterns fairly easily.  Mutes for drums would be something nice to have so that could switch things up during songs.  Just spitballing, but say in Gary Numan's Cars you have the basic beat, but 16th note hats that you turn on for the turnarounds and off for the verses, that sort of thing.

Second possibility would be all the stuff in the Modx I've never bothered to mess with after a couple hundred gigs with it   Motion sequences etc.  If I can get a simple beat going with it, without having to sequence everything, I could use it.  And play perc from keys of course.

Eventually if we like the sound of the drums and feel the songs work with them, I would probably go with a hardware unit but I don't want that to slow things down now.

[ProfD]

Try not to over-think it. Keep it simple. Build up as skills/experience grows. Should never feel like a chore. Have fun.😎

[stoken6]

2 hours ago, Stokely said:

So first possibility is an IOS drum app if it's simple enough.  Currently messing with "Drum Computer" which certainly is complex but might also work in a simple fashion.  I want something with virtual pads, a prominent tempo control, and ways to pull up patterns fairly easily. 

If someone wants to develop an Alesis SR16 app, I'll be all over that.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Stokely]

Ironically I finally sold my SR16 a few years (well, maybe more than a few) ago.  It had sat in closets in various apts and houses for more than 20 years.  Never really liked it, but it would come in handy right now to see if we can pull off some synthwave/vintage synth stuff between the two of us  

[obxa]

On 7/23/2023 at 10:22 AM, Cabo said:

I'd think about adding a percussionist.  That would open things up considerably (if you get the right person) and avoid the backing tracks issue, which would be a huge time investment.

This.

 

   Do a fair amount of what we call our unplugged  "Bossa Trio" -  piano, sax/clarinet, and with a great drummer/percussionist  who brings  just  snare, cajon, and a conga.    We do latin, swing, and pop jazz.  Also swap female vocalist in place of Sax.  Clients like it because it's dinner-converstation friendly. 

 

  When budgets only allow for duo, we use an app called Soft Drummer  It's understated because it uses brushes or drums struck by hand.   For me it doesn't scream "drum machine".  Doesn't use any cymbals, which to me  always is the cheese factor of backing tracks.   I like it because you're not tied down to any arrangement or tempo.  I can get by with 5 or 6 presets and tweak tempo as needed.   Started using it a bit on some long solo gigs too.   Runs on the barest of Ipads or Iphone.