p90jr Posted July 16, 2023 Share Posted July 16, 2023 I've been playing a lot of cover gigs as a fill-in guy on guitar and bass, lately... I've done that for decades... Around here, you're going to have play Van Morrisson songs. Luckily, bands now just refuse to play "Brown Eyed Girl" because they're sick of playing it (and I swear, if you play it once, they will try to make you play it 5 more times that night... wth is it with that song?), but "Into The Mystic," sometimes "Moondance" if it's an act with accomplished players, and "Tupelo Honey." NOBODY PLAYS "TUPELO HONEY" WITH THE CORRECT CHORD CHANGES!!! The entire song is just Bb - E/A - Eb - Bb | Bb - E/A - Eb - F over and over again... everybody plays Bb - Dm - Eb - Bb | Bb - Dm - Eb - F... when I play it correctly, they look at me and "correct" me... and argue with me later that I'm wrong... I've noticed every "TAB" site (horrible useless dens of incorrect transcriptions that I never bother with to learn songs) has it incorrectly. it's really starting to annoy me. Does no one have ears? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desertbluesman Posted July 16, 2023 Share Posted July 16, 2023 @p90jr I am one of those who will never play a cover tune the way the original artist did the tune. I always make the tune fit my view of the world or subject, so none of the above in your original thread would make me cringe when hearing someone play a different set of changes or change the melodies a bit. I think there is a difference in a tribute band and a improvisational cover artist. I have good friends in several tribute bands. A tribute band has to get it as near to the original as can be done. But someone who does modified covers does not have to meet the strict tribute band rules. In fact I do a single cover of several Beatles tunes chopped up starting with one verse of Come Together, the second verse is from With A Little Help From My friends, then next verse from Come Together and so until the end where I use She Loves You Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, She Loves You Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Hello Goodbye Hello Goodbye, Goodbye. And to add to that I use a completely different set of ways I recorded the changes than What the Beatles did with Sir George Martin producing. 2 Quote dbm If it sounds good, it is good !! http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=143231&content=music Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
niacin Posted July 17, 2023 Share Posted July 17, 2023 2 3 Quote Gig keys: Hammond SKpro, Korg Vox Continental, Crumar Mojo 61, Crumar Mojo Pedals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larryz Posted July 17, 2023 Share Posted July 17, 2023 @desertbluesman, +1,000 I like the Frank Sinatra philosophy of "I did it my way". I think it comes from growing up on the Elvis Presley and Ray Charles philosophy of doing it their way too! I have no problem with speeding up or slowing down a tune. I do a slower version of Johnny B. Goode. I have no problem with changing, adding or deleting a chord when doing my own thing. I do my version of Elvis medleys that can change on the fly depending on how I feel. It usually starts with the key of E, That's Alright Mama, then goes into Train I Ride, then I throw in a little Folsom Prison (Johnny Cash), back to That's Alright Mama with my own original ending. Or I may do Elvis in A, with Jail House Rock, All Shook Up, Shake Rattle and Roll, and I Gotta Woman. Don't get me started in C, with Blue Suede Shoes, Any Place is Paradise, I'm So Glad You're Mine, etc., I love medleys... 😎 @p90jr I'm glad those Van Morrison fans are still out there requesting Brown Eyed Girl 5 times LoL! I used to do that tune along with Moondance. It may drive you a little bonkers, but I enjoyed hearing there are still people out there that like our oldies so much. I could never spend the time copying note for note or learning someone's tab version of a song. I just get the hook riff in Brown Eyed Girl using my ear and intuition. It's not the same as the record but people know what it is, and I get away with it. The same goes for the chorus chords in Pretty Woman which ascend differently on the record than what everyone else plays. When playing solo it's easy to avoid those after the gig debates LoL! 😎 @niacin Cool rendition of Tupelo Honey... 😎 1 Quote Take care, Larryz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caevan O’Shite Posted July 17, 2023 Share Posted July 17, 2023 14 hours ago, p90jr said: ...bands now just refuse to play "Brown Eyed Girl" because they're sick of playing it (and I swear, if you play it once, they will try to make you play it 5 more times that night... wth is it with that song?)... Well, it is a fantastic song, an outstanding example of the craft, incredibly well written and performed in the original. Besides that, as Frank Zappa said, "People don't know what they like, they like what they know." But, I know what you mean. It's as if that were the only song he ever did, along with Thin Lizzy apparently only ever doing "The Boys Are Back In Town"... 14 hours ago, p90jr said: ...but [bands will play covers of] "Into The Mystic", sometimes "Moondance" if it's an act with accomplished players, and "Tupelo Honey". Oh, man, "Into The Mystic"... a serious solid favorite of mine, along with others by THE MAN. But I digress... 14 hours ago, p90jr said: ...and "Tupelo Honey." NOBODY PLAYS "TUPELO HONEY" WITH THE CORRECT CHORD CHANGES!!! The entire song is just Bb - E/A - Eb - Bb | Bb - E/A - Eb - F over and over again... everybody plays Bb - Dm - Eb - Bb | Bb - Dm - Eb - F... when I play it correctly, they look at me and "correct" me... and argue with me later that I'm wrong... Slash chords do seem to throw a lot of people off very easily. (To anybody reading this that may not be familiar with this, "Slash Chords" are chords written with a specific note chosen to be played in the lowest bass voice, sometimes sounding somewhat unintuitively or ambiguously unclear to someone trying to make out the chord voicings by ear. For example, that E/A cited above designates an E chord with an A, its 4th, as the lowest bass voice.) 14 hours ago, p90jr said: I've noticed every "TAB" site (horrible useless dens of incorrect transcriptions that I never bother with to learn songs) has it incorrectly. You are correct, Sir, about THAT! It's stunning just how much bad, incorrect, sometimes mind-bogglingly blatantly WRONG MISinformation is out there on the internet! Pooted out of the sage and crusty moufs of those who profess to be expert gurus. 14 hours ago, p90jr said: It's really starting to annoy me. Does no one have ears? Mos def. I will admittedly sift through a few "TAB" pages and the like for some reference, sometimes luckily finding some better, more solid information; but no matter the source and veracity of any TAB or Notation, I always, ALWAYS use MY EARS in the beginning and in the end. Sometimes for varying reasons of my own, I may even deliberately choose to deviate from the correct original, though... Creative re-arranging is one thing. Just plain getting it wrong is another. 3 Quote Ask yourself- What Would Ren and Stimpy Do? ~ Caevan James-Michael Miller-O'Shite ~ _ ___ _ Leprechaun, Esquire _ ___ _ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p90jr Posted July 17, 2023 Author Share Posted July 17, 2023 14 hours ago, desertbluesman said: @p90jr I am one of those who will never play a cover tune the way the original artist did the tune. I always make the tune fit my view of the world or subject, so none of the above in your original thread would make me cringe when hearing someone play a different set of changes or change the melodies a bit. I think there is a difference in a tribute band and a improvisational cover artist. I have good friends in several tribute bands. A tribute band has to get it as near to the original as can be done. But someone who does modified covers does not have to meet the strict tribute band rules. In fact I do a single cover of several Beatles tunes chopped up starting with one verse of Come Together, the second verse is from With A Little Help From My friends, then next verse from Come Together and so until the end where I use She Loves You Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, She Loves You Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Hello Goodbye Hello Goodbye, Goodbye. And to add to that I use a completely different set of ways I recorded the changes than What the Beatles did with Sir George Martin producing. Well, then that would be a "Hey, we do it our own way, like this..." beforehand thing, not a "HEY, YOU ARE MAKING A MISTAKE... WE DO IT THE WAY IT IS ON THE RECORD.... WHAT ARE YOU DOING!?!" thing... get it? Is it reasonable for people to know that you have changed the underlying chord sequence without informing them, and react like they're making the mistake for not knowing it the first time through? That's nuts. And I have to say these are people who also get lost if the arrangement varies from the record in any way... and I have a MUCH better than average ear, I correct to their way of doing it by the second time the change comes around... The reason I hate the I-III-IV-V way of doing "Tupelo Honey" is that it then makes it just like "The Weight," which has usually come earlier in the set... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p90jr Posted July 17, 2023 Author Share Posted July 17, 2023 I just noticed in my original post I made a mistake... it isn't E/A, it's F/A... a great example of Muphy's Law - any internet post about a typo or mistake or incorrect information will itself contain a typo, mistake or incorrect information. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p90jr Posted July 17, 2023 Author Share Posted July 17, 2023 13 hours ago, niacin said: Wonderful... and though they changed some other chords they kept the second one most of the tine, which I think is best for the melody... I did this version of "Blackbird" for a "White Album" tribute show... because the vocalist for the song wanted to and the guy running the show thought by the time it come up it was time to deviate a bit to keep it interesting, since he said he'd heard the sing 1,000,000 times at open mic nights over the decades,,, some people came up to me and complained, though... We did a "Revolver" show and after one rehearsal of "Yellow Submarine" we all kind of looked at each other and said "does anybody really need to hear that done faithfully, really?" and instead did it with New Orleans parade/Bo Diddly beat verses and Dixieland Swing Choruses and I sang in my best Louis Armstrong impersonation. It was great fun and the horn players got to cut up and it went over great wherever we did it except New Orleans, where the kind of people who come to a Beatles' tribute show are tired of hearing anything that sounds like stereotypical "New Orleans" and they just rolled their eyes... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p90jr Posted July 17, 2023 Author Share Posted July 17, 2023 oh, the other thing that bugs me is that even if I play an A on the bass against their Dm chord, it is still not "wrong," it's just an inversion... it doesn't sound wrong and I doubt if anyone in the audience would think there was a mistake if there wasn't a over-reaction by somebody onstage, which is another thing, don't clue the audience in that there's any mistakes... when I played in my stepdad's big band jazz group, one of the sax players used to always say "Now, remember... if you play a wrong note once it's a mistake, if you play it twice it's jazz... at least that's what Ornette Coleman told me..." 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larryz Posted July 17, 2023 Share Posted July 17, 2023 @p90jr, +1 but when playing solo, you can do your own thing without explaining your changes. You can deviate from the record and if the crowd likes it, you're good to go. If you're making a change to an important chord or in the chord pattern, you should advise the others at a jam session of the changes before playing the tune in front of an audience. When playing with your regulars, they will have rehearsed the tune and know any of the chord changes, stops, tempo, key, etc. And +1 on repeating the mistake when it comes around again. If it's a clam, just repeat it and make a jazz joke out of it. Like DBM @desertbluesman I seldom play tunes just like the record as I like to do my own arrangements. But like Caevan @Caevan O’Shite I do my research and seek out the original before making changes. I try to honor the original, but I may simplify or just use my ear and/or make it a little more jazzy, country, R&R, bluesy, etc. There is no "wrong" way unless you're way out of bounds. 1st and most important is finding the key that works for my vocals. 2 rules: The singer calls the key and the band's volume stays under the singer unless there is a lead break. I try to advise those that want to play with me of my philosophy before joining a band. If they have a different philosophy, I just tell them "I'm not your guy." It's better to get things ironed out ahead of time IMHO...😎 2 Quote Take care, Larryz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p90jr Posted July 17, 2023 Author Share Posted July 17, 2023 4 minutes ago, Larryz said: @p90jr, +1 but when playing solo, you can do your own thing without explaining your changes. You can deviate from the record and if the crowd likes it, you're good to go. If you're making a change to an important chord or in the chord pattern, you should advise the others at a jam session of the changes before playing the tune in front of an audience. When playing with your regulars, they will have rehearsed the tune and know any of the chord changes, stops, tempo, key, etc. Like DBM @desertbluesman I seldom play tunes just like the record as I like to do my own arrangements. But like Caevan @Caevan O’Shite I do my research and seek out the original before making changes. I try to honor the original, but I may simplify or just use my ear and/or make it a little more jazzy, country, R&R, bluesy, etc. There is no "wrong" way unless you're way out of bounds. 1st and most important is finding the key that works for my vocals. 2 rules: The singer calls the key and the band's volume stays under the singer unless there is a lead break. I try to advise those that want to play with me of my philosophy before joining a band. If they have a different philosophy, I just tell them "I'm not your guy." It's better to get things ironed out ahead of time IMHO...😎 well, if I'm on guitar and singing I do have a habit of throwing in a bit of a song with the same chord changes (or close enough that the melody works over it) in at the end of a song in an improvised manner... like sticking a bit of "Hit The The Road, Jack" and/or "Beat Generation" into "Stray Cat Strut" or the other night when a drummers' kids made us play "Another Brick In The Wall" sticking in a bit of the Bee Gees "Staying Alive" (which was the production inspiration, believe it or not, for the Pink Floyd track) at the end... some people get a kick out of that... some get furious... I guess it's just a way of weeding out who calls me again, really. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larryz Posted July 17, 2023 Share Posted July 17, 2023 @p90jr Try playing House of the Rising Sun in Eminor and then mix it up with Little Red Riding Hood and find out where Sam the Sham got his chords LoL! Hotel California is also a cool tune in Eminor and drops down to where my vocal works. The Aminor everyone uses for Hotel and House (and especially those that capo it up) is much too high for me to sing in...😎👍 2 Quote Take care, Larryz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluMunk Posted July 17, 2023 Share Posted July 17, 2023 For me, there's an ocean of difference between re-harmonizing a song on purpose or simplifying for context and playing wrong chords or leaving out detail because of a failure to listen (or incorrect transcription). 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p90jr Posted July 17, 2023 Author Share Posted July 17, 2023 5 minutes ago, BluMunk said: For me, there's an ocean of difference between re-harmonizing a song on purpose or simplifying for context and playing wrong chords or leaving out detail because of a failure to listen (or incorrect transcription). BluMunk, there was a time about a decade ago I would go up and talk to guitarists in cover bands just to work around to telling/showing them that the opening chord stab in Prince's "Kiss" was an E7sus2 (in the context of that song's progression, some people argue it should be called one of the other many names instead) at the 12th fret... it was killing me hearing wrong takes on that... most of them were very grateful... ("I could not figure out what the hell it was!!!") though a few would take a "whatever, nobody cares, they still dance" attitude 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p90jr Posted July 17, 2023 Author Share Posted July 17, 2023 8 hours ago, Caevan O’Shite said: Well, it is a fantastic song, an outstanding example of the craft, incredibly well written and performed in the original. Besides that, as Frank Zappa said, "People don't know what they like, they like what they know." But, I know what you mean. It's as if that were the only song he ever did, along with Thin Lizzy apparently only ever doing "The Boys Are Back In Town"... Oh, man, "Into The Mystic"... a serious solid favorite of mine, along with others by THE MAN. But I digress... Slash chords do seem to throw a lot of people off very easily. (To anybody reading this that may not be familiar with this, "Slash Chords" are chords written with a specific note chosen to be played in the lowest bass voice, sometimes sounding somewhat unintuitively or ambiguously unclear to someone trying to make out the chord voicings by ear. For example, that E/A cited above designates an E chord with an A, its 4th, as the lowest bass voice.) You are correct, Sir, about THAT! It's stunning just how much bad, incorrect, sometimes mind-bogglingly blatantly WRONG MISinformation is out there on the internet! Pooted out of the sage and crusty moufs of those who profess to be expert gurus. Mos def. I will admittedly sift through a few "TAB" pages and the like for some reference, sometimes luckily finding some better, more solid information; but no matter the source and veracity of any TAB or Notation, I always, ALWAYS use MY EARS in the beginning and in the end. Sometimes for varying reasons of my own, I may even deliberately choose to deviate from the correct original, though... Creative re-arranging is one thing. Just plain getting it wrong is another. Caev, it will probably hurt your heart (as it does mine) a bit to know that most people down here who request these songs have no idea who Van Morrisson is... I used to deflect the requests for "Brown Eyed Girl" by saying "I will play it IF you can tell me who wrote it and recorded it first..." and most of the time that shut it down because nobody knew... They know those songs here because a popular local "swamp pop" performer played and recorded versions of them all... they don't seem to be on YT, but to give you an idea... here's his take on... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caevan O’Shite Posted July 18, 2023 Share Posted July 18, 2023 19 hours ago, p90jr said: Caev, it will probably hurt your heart (as it does mine) a bit to know that most people down here who request these songs have no idea who Van Morrisson is... Naaa, it doesn't hurt my heart, and I know Van has had his share and then some of all that fame and fortune can bring, he's fine and I'm fine and I can thoroughly groove to the marvel that is "Glad Tidings" time and again. I've been well aware of the sorry state of the pubic at large in many ways for a long, long time, and have long since come to terms with it as far as general knowledge and appreciation of music goes. Makes for a comfier stay in an ivory tower. 'Van Broussard'? Nevah 'eard of 'er... 2 Quote Ask yourself- What Would Ren and Stimpy Do? ~ Caevan James-Michael Miller-O'Shite ~ _ ___ _ Leprechaun, Esquire _ ___ _ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caevan O’Shite Posted July 18, 2023 Share Posted July 18, 2023 On 7/17/2023 at 12:09 PM, p90jr said: They know those songs here because a popular local "swamp pop" performer played and recorded versions of them all... Is this the same guy, p90jr? Mike Broussard & Nite Train 1 Quote Ask yourself- What Would Ren and Stimpy Do? ~ Caevan James-Michael Miller-O'Shite ~ _ ___ _ Leprechaun, Esquire _ ___ _ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitefang Posted July 19, 2023 Share Posted July 19, 2023 On 7/16/2023 at 10:33 PM, Larryz said: . I do a slower version of Johnny B. Goode. So did Chuck. In his autobiography he did claim that his songs weren't written in "odd" chords like Bb G# and such. It was Leonard Chess who thought the tempos should be faster, therefore(in his way of thinking) more "danceable" for the teens of the day so he sped up the master tapes when making the Master Disc so when some aspiring guitar player tries to learn the song off the record, he finds that the key of A that Chuck originally might have recorded the song in becomes Bb to the aspiring guitarist learning off the record. Whitefang 1 Quote I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larryz Posted July 19, 2023 Share Posted July 19, 2023 @whitefang, I always did Johnny B. in A. I had my version of the intro and a stand-in drummer said "that's not the way Chuck Berry does it" and I said "that's because I'm not Chuck Berry", he laughed and said touché...My slower version came up by accident at one of my Cabin Jams. We were getting bluesy with an instrumental version of Night Train. For some reason I broke into the lyrics of Johnny B. Goode and it went over quite well. It is a classic I IV V jump blues tune if you slow it down a little and it's very "danceable", which I proved at a few open mic gatherings later in life...😎 2 Quote Take care, Larryz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitefang Posted July 20, 2023 Share Posted July 20, 2023 Jump Blues? Sure. Chuck also always claimed that Louis Jordan(the king of jump blues) was a major influence. Whitefang 1 Quote I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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