Home studio: treat the ceiling?

[bill5]

For those that have one, did you treat the ceiling and if so how much of it and what did you do? 

[cassdad]

I also want to know what you did with the floor!  (My “studio” has a travertine (stone) floor -  is treating the walls and ceiling enough?)

[bill5]

You should be able to throw down a rug (or rugs) and be fine.

 

 

[Anderton]

I have four sound absorber panels above the mix position. It's not "real" treating but it does make a difference. I suppose I should try a cloud someday.

 

But if I really want to treat my ceiling, maybe I should take it to dinner and a movie.

[bill5]

Groan!

 

 

[Sundown]

Hi Bill,

 

I think it depends on your specific room/configuration, but in all home studios I’ve built, I always have some form of localized ceiling treatment.

 

Most of my studios have followed the live-end/dead-end concept, so the dead-end has a hanging cloud or absorptive panels over the mix position. My current purpose-built studio has a relatively low ceiling so I had to settle for 3” foam (Sonex), but my preference is a hanging cloud with 4”-thick panels and an air gap. Absent very large rooms with high ceilings, you can’t have enough bass trapping and a 4” Owens Corning 703 panel with an air gap will trap high frequencies and bust-up some of the modes in the room.

 

My floor is LVP vinyl over concrete but I have a thick pad and rug under my mix position. Coupled with my first reflection wall treatments and my overhead Sonex panels, my mix position sounds quite good.

 

Todd

 

 

[bill5]

Can y'all please define "the mix position?"

[Anderton]

28 minutes ago, bill5 said:

Can y'all please define "the mix position?"

Sure, it's where you sit or stand when mixing.

[bill5]

Seemed an obvious answer, but didn't want to assume. So not when recording? Just curious to me that one would care about that when mixing but not recording. 

[Theo Verelst]

I like lots of damping, good amount (pile about 2 meters high for a 4x6 space)) of thick foam (vomit color) divided on all the walls (hanging in front or on the walls), preferably floor damping (soft carpet(s), specific isolation plates), and some ceiling covering with those general use black foam panels, some of it in where hanging under the ceiling somewhat where the first reflections between the speakers and the listener position take place.

 

Clearly some parts of the wall and more of the ceiling can remain part of a normal acoustic, otherwise the "English library" damped sound is a bit oo dead to mix in for living room use.

 

You have to mind where you are using full range speaker systems which produce normal low and somewhat normally dispersive highs as opposed to very small monitors that rely on standing waves only for producing low frequency content, because serious damping will make those pretty much gone (presuming you design your damping good).

 

The mids are hard because of how specific they are heard, so normally the squakers/tweeters shoukd be enough away from walls and ceiling, to prevent much coloration, and the pattern of damping plates on especially the walls between the speakers and the listener should be chosen for random mid frequency response.

 

Beware that unless you damp seriously, any room with relfective walls etc. is going to give you very much more indirect sound, also at the sweet spot, in comparison with the direct sound than you might anticipate. So if you're damping for just some major high frequency or standing waves patterns, the amount of reflection you are still going to continuously hear can be much more than you think. I mean " damping" in the thought of some people is like  this magic plate will eat so and so many dBs", whereas it might be that overall the reduction of all specific reflected sounds isn't much damping at all, dB-wise.

 

T.

[Anderton]

17 hours ago, bill5 said:

Seemed an obvious answer, but didn't want to assume. So not when recording? Just curious to me that one would care about that when mixing but not recording. 

 

No question or answer is obvious in audio-world. Well, except for "Should I tune my instrument before recording?"

 

When mixing, you have a fixed position in relation to the monitor speakers and you probably don't move around much. So it's a fairly static position. While recording, you're likely standing in front of a mic, a guitar amp, sitting down at a drum set, etc. You likely don't have a stationary position that you can optimize for sound quality while recording. So, for recording, you want to treat the entire room as much as possible.

[bill5]

ah got ya- yeah I'd be doing it all in one room. I just don't recall seeing or hearing people treating the entire ceiling. 

[Stokely]

Curious about this.  I have kind of an odd room as an office/studio--it's basically two story as it's next to our upstairs bonus room, 14 ft ceiling.  It's about 16x11 so not a big space.  A couple of the corners are angled off to make 4-6 ft "beveled" walls which is probably a good thing.  There is room reverb for sure--more than a low ceiling bedroom of similar size-- but mainly I need to get rid of some comb filtering I hear and some ringing (on just a simple clap test).  I'm not sure if this tall ceiling helps or hurts    I figure I could probably benefit from hanging "clouds"--acoustic panels suspended down--but it would be quite the job to hang them.   Also, there are more low-hanging fruit available (no pun intended) as far as treatments.   When I close the double doors the reflection is quite noticeable, so something on those would be 1a.  Probably bass traps/full panels opposite my speakers would be 1b.

[Theo Verelst]

It's a complex area, but just making a less pronounced general boxy reverberant space at least requires you to get mid frequency range reflections somewhat under control. Unless you mix real loud the equal loudness sensitivity curves make you hear the mid frequency range the clearest in the reverb. Main modes are between opposing walls, 1st reflections via side walls and ceiling, and any geometry that greatly enhances around 10 cm long waves.

 

Highs damp easier  usually, and (also for less pronounced digital artifacts) can be cancelled from overly reverberating by limiting the exposure of side walls and ceiling by damping very near the speakers. Really bringing those tails down usually necessarily means applying a significant amount of damping, that's a physics main line.

 

Significantly reducing low end boom/standing waves, presuming your monitoring doesn't require the effect, simply takes a significant amount of damping before even getting near a someehat even low response, infortunately. So: heavy carpet and drapes and a big matress on the rear wall, and dome big cushion furniture probably isn't enough..

 

T

[Stokely]

That is my impression as well.  I have 8" studio monitors, no sub, so super low end is not a big problem.  I have been looking at bass traps in any case (3-6" depending on the material, probably 4" if I use "safe and sound" batts).   These should have decent absorption of relatively low frequencies, but will be great in the mids and highs.  I have a big bookcase with books and other stuff in it on one wall that acts as a diffuser  

If I buy panels, I'll probably get a mix of 2" and 4" and with some of them (depends on location)  I'll be able to leave an air gap of 2" behind them (most don't have much backing on them).  The air gaps apparently can add to the bass trapping.

[Theo Verelst]

When I was putting my stuff up on the 4x6 meter room (normal ceiling, concrete, some dry wall), I happened to have been given a lot of damping plates, the ones made of old matress chunks. Of course there are a lot og sound damping materials, special or common, expensive and cheap. Making a beautiful music room isn't necessarily equivalent to a easy and cheap damping solution..

 

T

[Stokely]

Putting aside aesthetics, my room is too small for mattress chunks   

I'm still debating DIY panels vs buying some.   The cost difference would add up quite a bit if I made a fair number of them (the more panels, the more savings), but it also depends on how well "safe and sound" (SnS) works.    Acoustically, 4" of SnS will be fine, I'm just worried as it may sag in a frame.   I can get SnS at Lowes; if I need to order rockboard 60 or 80, the only places I can find it at are the companies that make panels, and it ain't at all cheap after shipping.  Not going to use fiberglass, I have too many bad memories of getting stuck by fibers from my boat as a youngster....

[ProfD]

Unless the home studio is being used to record, mix and master for clients and/or commercial release, treating the room is a vanity project.  Go for it according to your own audio/visual appeal.😁😎

[jerrythek]

The best advice I got on this subject is to do nothing until your studio/desk is set up, then play some music you know well and really listen in the sweet spot/working position. Then deal with what you actually hear, and what bothers you. Not theoretical stuff, but your actual experience.

[techristian]

I was given a bunch of carpet tapestries . I had no space for them on the wall so some of them are now on my ceiling. They do help with overhead reflection of sound...and they look cool too! My new studio room has a DROP CEILING. That is also a help.

 

Dan

[Sundown]

On 7/15/2023 at 12:39 AM, bill5 said:

Can y'all please define "the mix position?"

 

There is an optimal area in your room to listen to music, even in a well-treated room. We can say that it’s centered along the short room dimension (width), and your height and chair will define the vertical height. But the exact position along the length of the room will be debated. For argument’s sake let’s say it’s 38% of the room length off the front wall (that’s one famous or oft-quoted viewpoint for the ideal location).

 

With a live-end/dead-end setup, you would position your monitors and chair based on this 38% location and then treat the first reflection points on the ceiling. I use 3” Sonex foam in my current setup, but previous setups have used 4 inch-thick Owens Corning 703 absorbers with a substantial air gap. My basement studio has a low ceiling, so foam was more practical for me. But a thicker absorber with an air gap is a good thing, as few have the luxury of a large enough room to eliminate standing waves. Making the ceiling an additional broadband absorber is a good move if you have the height to contain the air gap and depth.

 

I haven’t decided yet if I will spot treat other areas of my ceiling, but in my live-end/dead-end setup (with a 21 x 13 x 7 room), the mix position is well covered.

 

Todd

 

 

 

 

[Stokely]

On 7/19/2023 at 10:26 AM, ProfD said:

Unless the home studio is being used to record, mix and master for clients and/or commercial release, treating the room is a vanity project.  Go for it according to your own audio/visual appeal.😁😎

I do hesitate to spend a lot and for the reasons you are stating.  It would just be for me, and I've had to take a hard look at how much I'm actually sitting down and doing music in the space.  I've taken the hard look at buying more plugins--I see a sale on some library but I've gotten tough with myself, saying "you haven't even tried the one you got with Komplete yet!"   There's definitely an element of "man, those panels would look cool!"  Logically, any mixes I do are for me and a couple friends and with referencing I feel I do a credible job on headphones.

I still might try DIY which would be cheaper and kind of a fun project, assuming I make something worthy to hang on the wall (which is a real question with me considering my "skills" at DIY...)

[Anderton]

I do narration and voiceovers as well as song vocals, so I have to have a treated room. Otherwise too many room reflections get into the mic. I don't have anything fancy for treatment, just some diffusion and absorption, but it makes a world of difference. So there are reasons to treat a room other than for listening to mixes. Having a dedicated vocal booth would be nice, but it's not practical given my studio's size and layout.

[ProfD]

7 minutes ago, Anderton said:

I do narration and voiceovers as well as song vocals, so I have to have a treated room.

 

So there are reasons to treat a room other than for listening to mixes.

Of course, working definitely justifies a treated room.😁

 

Disposable (?) income is another reason and/or excuse.🤣😎  

[Anderton]

18 minutes ago, ProfD said:

Disposable (?) income is another reason and/or excuse.🤣😎  

 

What is this "disposable income" of which you speak? 🤣 Is it related to the mythical concept of "vacation"?

[ProfD]

34 minutes ago, Anderton said:

 

What is this "disposable income" of which you speak? 🤣 Is it related to the mythical concept of "vacation"?

I believe it is related to the money folks spend in casinos and Disneyland tickets.🤣😎

[Stokely]

Actually, I try not to lump gig money into other "disposable income".   And definitely try not to use it for "life stuff" like bills though the wife did had me use some I'd built up for yes, a vacation payment to VRBO    As an aside, last family vacation I intend to take for a while, those things wear me out.   We are pretty good at living well within our means so gig money is cake icing.

It probably makes little logical sense, but I try to keep gig earnings to musical-related things.  As I'm actually "done" with my rig--and I literally feel that I am, I have no needs nor any desire to change anything and if anything have extra stuff to sell--room treatment wouldn't be the worst use for it, in my mind

[Nowarezman]

I recently bought a pair of Genelec 8320As and a sub from SVS.  (Jeez, what detail I get from these Genelecs!!) The Genelec website has some great articles about speaker placement and mixing point positioning.  Their advice is a bit different than what I've read and watched from a large number of other sources.  I've actually put their advice into practice, so my support for their take on all this is backed up by experience. 

 

I won't repeat their detailed discussions here - you can get started here. 

 

But one super-useful principle I came away with is this - you don't have spend as much money and buy as much sheer mass of treatment if you do some things that cost little or nothing to help decrease room artifacts in what you're hearing from the mixing position.  Some "for examples" in highly condensed language:

 

1.  Make the equilateral triangle of the mixing position smaller rather than bigger - a simple way to increase the ratio of direct sound you'll hear versus reflected sound.  Cost = send me $50, thx. 

 

2.  Simply experiment with your mixing chair placement and speaker placement until you find as node-free a configuration as you can.  Decreases the amount of damage control the treatment has to accomplish. An inch here, and inch there can make a significant difference.  And get those speakers pointed very accurately right at your ear height.  Speakers differ in their sensitivity to horizontal and vertical aiming - but just a few little degrees of difference will make an audible difference, maybe even a major difference.  I think of listening at the sweet spot like looking through a telescope.  The right focus and a just-so orientation of your eye to the viewing lens is a narrow set of criteria but is the only way to do it.

 

3.  This tip is actually from Mike Senior (SOS guy and well-known studio guru).  You just don't have to mix most of the time hearing the low lows and high highs.  The great bulk of the work and important content is in between the extremes.  Take those low lows out of the material entirely, mix away, and add them back in later after you've sorted everything else.  Less low content, so less work again for the treatment, less node mess, and no "one-note" bass.  I'm a huge fan of mixing with Avantone MixCubes 90% of the time - there are other speakers just as suitable.  Get the mix sorted on those, and move to the big speakers and/or high quality phones for the high highs and low lows for a wrap.

 

nat

 

 

 

[bill5]

On 7/19/2023 at 10:26 AM, ProfD said:

Unless the home studio is being used to record, mix and master for clients and/or commercial release, treating the room is a vanity project.  Go for it according to your own audio/visual appeal.😁😎

So if you're a hobbyist who wants quality sound recordings, you don't need to treat the room? We'll agree to disagree there.

[ProfD]

4 hours ago, bill5 said:

So if you're a hobbyist who wants quality sound recordings, you don't need to treat the room? We'll agre to disagree there.

A hobbyist who wants quality sound recordings should treat the vanity project, er, room accordingly.  See my post about disposable income.😁😎