Camelot Pro (iPad) and Kurzweil setup help

[ABECK]

Anyone using Camelot Pro with a recent model Kurzweil (K2700/PC4)?  I'd like to be able to send a program or Multi select message to my K2700, but it's a bit wonky.  I can get it to work with Programs, but not Multis.  I read somewhere that you can't switch between multi and program mode using midi messages, but I see there is a profile setup for the Forte, and it is setup to do just that.  I tried using the profile for the Forte with my K2700, but it doesn't work correctly (it does switch between multi and program mode, but the multi's don't play properly...and when switching from multi to multi, the sound changes, but the display doesn't.)

 

 

[bfields]

I wrote up some notes on selecting PC4 programs and multis over MIDI and lost them, I should make another attempt one of these days....

 

I've been using the "Extended" program change mode (under Global->MIDI), and then using sysrq commands to choose multis:

 

F0 07 46 01 00 31 F7 (to put the keyboard in multi mode)

F0 07 46 01 00 11 WX YZ F7 (to choose the multi numbered 128*WX +YZ, where WX and YZ are hex digits representing numbers between 0 and 128)

 

And for programs:

F0 07 46 01 00 30 F7 (to put the keyboard in program mode)

a regular patch change message to the appropriate channel to choose the program.

 

In the case of choosing a program I also need to add a slight delay between the program-mode sysrq and the patch change message.

 

Another option would be to instead use the "Quick Access" program change mode, put your programs and multis in QA lists, and select them that way.

 

I assume it's all the same on the K2700 but I don't know.

 

I'm sending all this from an Android tablet running MobileSheets, I know nothing about Camelot Pro, but I assume it's got some reasonable way to send arbitrary MIDI messages.

[ABECK]

Thanks - looks promising.  I'll play around with this.

 

[bfields]

Sorry, I don't know why I keep writing "sysrq" when I mean "sysex".  Some sort of habit leftover from years of linux kernel hacking....

 

I think the "46 01" identifies the model the sysex is for, and it's possible that part might be different for the K2700.  You can send an identity request sysex:

 

F0 7E 7F 06 01 F7

 

My PC4 responds with

 

F0 7E 7F 06 02 07 46 00 01 00 34 2E 33 32 F7

 

I think the "46 00 01 00" is the important part, and may tell you what you need to substitute for "46 01" in the PC4 sysex above.

 

People at forums.godlike.com.au may be able to help more with this sort of thing.

[stoken6]

7 hours ago, bfields said:

Sorry, I don't know why I keep writing "sysrq" when I mean "sysex"

Thank you. I was lying awake last night wondering what was this new MIDI message type I had never heard of.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Synthaholic]

If I'm not mistaken the creator of Camelot is a forum member here. A search of earlier Camelot threads might be worth it to look for him and ask him questions. Although, I don't know how often he checks in. But if he has any email alerts active he may see it.

[Synthaholic]

I bought Camelot and messed around with it, but it didn't do it for me precisely because it didn't support Standard MIDI File playback, which I cannot comprehend. I have so many MIDI program changes embedded in my sequences that I wanted to concurrently run a MIDI sequence just containing those messages along with the Camelot timeline. I'm not going to spend the hours going back and redoing program changes for 300 songs. Easier to find another app, which I kinda did, in Cubasis. It doesn't do exactly what Camelot or Mainstage or Gig Performer does, but it's working for me, and is available for my iPad Pro 12x9 at home for creation, then exporting to my small, light Samsung Android for stage.

[AnotherScott]

22 minutes ago, Synthaholic said:

If I'm not mistaken the creator of Camelot is a forum member here. A search of earlier Camelot threads might be worth it to look for him and ask him questions. Although, I don't know how often he checks in. But if he has any email alerts active he may see it.

 I think you may be thinking of the creator of Gig Performer rather than Camelot.

[Iconoclast]

Camelot Pro doesn't work correctly with the Forte either. 
 

1. I can only command patch changes in Program mode. Camelot will command a change from Program to Multi and back but will not change patches within Multi Mode, only within Program Mode.

2. The program numbers displayed in Camelot do not match the program numbers displayed in the Forte. Program #1 on the Forte is displayed as #2 on Camelot. As you get progressively higher in program numbers that difference becomes larger. Program 320 on Camelot is program 353 on the forte.

3. I haven't figured out which configuration is bad, but I keep ending up in midi loops where the Forte is playing the same notes over and over again very rapidly.

 

I've tried using Mainstage to command changes in Forte and had a little more success but I still keep running into unpredictable midi loops where notes, or controls (pedals, sliders, pitch bend etc) get locked in unpredictable midi loops. 

I've pretty much given up getting my Forte to change programs/multi's from an outside source. Sad because there's a lot of things I really love about the Forte. The EP's on it are really great IMHO, the pianos as good as any and the organ is definitely usable. But I have gravitated more and more to Nord just because it reacts more predictably to external midi and plays better with Mainstage.

I would suggest you write audio modelling support. They were very helpful with me, at least they responded quickly with an honest e-mail about their situation: 
 

"Hi Robert,

thank you for contacting us and sorry for the late reply.

Unfortunately, we have some users that are experiencing issues with Kurzweil devices, especially with Forte. A couple of customers loaned us their keyboards. We did several tests and we found many bugs trying to control the machines via MIDI (with any application, not only with Camelot). More, the two machines showed different behaviors.

Running into MIDI loops, software freezing or even memory errors (i.e. sending SysEx provided by Kurzweil developers) is quite easy. We made many reports to Kurzweil (since August 2020), our hope is that will fix those issues as soon as possible...

Anyway, my suggestions are:

be sure that the "Local Keyboard Channel" in the Camelot map matches the Kurzweil forte one. From what Kurzweil devs told me, the "mode change" message is actually a set of Control Changes and you have to send them on the right channel

be sure that eventual "transmit MIDI data" (or something like that) options in Forte MIDI settings are disabled.

There isn't a MIDI command for local off, you have to select it manually. We have an Artis and an SP6 and there is a button "Local/Dest" on the keyboard. I'm sorry, I don't remember if Forte has one button like that.

For the program change issue, I don't know what to say. I based the map on the MIDI implementation that I found online, and if I well remember it was ok when I tested it on the customers' machines.

I'm sorry for that bad news. At the moment we're far to suggest Kurzweil keyboards for all these issues. If you want, you can send us a video, just to see if you're doing all correct...

Best regards,

Simone

Simone Malacrida"

[Synthaholic]

1 hour ago, AnotherScott said:

 I think you may be thinking of the creator of Gig Performer rather than Camelot.

Ahh, you may be right. Thank you, Scott.

[ChrisDespo]

FWIW I don’t use Camelot (sorry if this is moving off topic but might be helpful to some?) I’ve been using Setlist Maker on my first gen iPad Pro to send program changes to my Forte flawlessly for the past 6 months - I keep the Forte in “Multi” Mode and if I need to play a single patch I create a “Multi” with just that one patch so I don’t need to go back and forth between Program and Multi modes.   I have my entire setlist programmed for a gig (easily edited on the fly if there’s an audible called) and just step through the setlist and as the next song comes up it changes my Forte patch and displays any notes, chords, samples to trigger, lyrics, pdf files I have attached to that tune.   Pretty slick piece of software and the developer is really responsive to questions, bugs, etc.  (no affiliation with them whatsoever).

[Deskew Tech]

On 6/29/2023 at 2:48 PM, Synthaholic said:

Ahh, you may be right. Thank you, Scott.

Yep - everybody thinks about me 🙂

[Delaware Dave]

On 6/29/2023 at 5:48 PM, ChrisDespo said:

FWIW I don’t use Camelot (sorry if this is moving off topic but might be helpful to some?) I’ve been using Setlist Maker on my first gen iPad Pro to send program changes to my Forte flawlessly for the past 6 months - I keep the Forte in “Multi” Mode and if I need to play a single patch I create a “Multi” with just that one patch so I don’t need to go back and forth between Program and Multi modes.   I have my entire setlist programmed for a gig (easily edited on the fly if there’s an audible called) and just step through the setlist and as the next song comes up it changes my Forte patch and displays any notes, chords, samples to trigger, lyrics, pdf files I have attached to that tune.   Pretty slick piece of software and the developer is really responsive to questions, bugs, etc.  (no affiliation with them whatsoever).

You did everything but answer ABECK'S question.  He wants to understand if he has a multi what MSB/LSB combination he has to use so that the Forte plays that specific Multi.  You never explained that in your answer   😕

[ChrisDespo]

Sorry I meant to attach a spreadsheet I found (not made by me and don’t remember where i got it so I can’t give credit, sorry) that gives the PROGRAM and  LSB values for a given program number (multi number in multi mode) - also here’s a screenshot of how I set it up using setlistmaker to change patches (I assume there’s a similar midi setup screen using Camelot?)- in this case below my multi/program number on Forte is 1153 so in my Setlistmaker I type in 0,9,1 for the values of MSB, LSB and PROGRAM (note that MSB is always zero, at least that’s been my experience anyway:

 

Kurzweil Bank Calculator 2.numbers

 

[bfields]

3 hours ago, Delaware Dave said:

You did everything but answer ABECK'S question.  He wants to understand if he has a multi what MSB/LSB combination he has to use so that the Forte plays that specific Multi.  You never explained that in your answer   😕

 

Note he asked about the PC4 and K2700, not the Forte.

 

1 hour ago, ChrisDespo said:

Sorry I meant to attach a spreadsheet I found (not made by me and don’t remember where i got it so I can’t give credit, sorry) that gives the PROGRAM and  LSB values for a given program number (multi number in multi mode)

 

Right, for the PC4 and K2700 also the formula is basically ID = 128 * bank + program, as long as you're using the "Extended" program change mode (the default).  That works to select programs, but not multis.  If you want to select multis that way, you need to set the "Local Keyboard Channel" parameter (under Global->MIDI) to the channel you intend to send the program changes from, and you need to put the keyboard in multi mode; see https://kurzweil.com/2021/06/28/pc4-select-multis-via-midi/.

 

Setting "Local Keyboard Channel" didn't work for my purposes, so I instead ended up using the sysex described above.

[ABECK]

On 6/29/2023 at 5:48 PM, ChrisDespo said:

I’ve been using Setlist Maker on my first gen iPad Pro to send program changes to my Forte flawlessly for the past 6 months - I keep the Forte in “Multi” Mode and if I need to play a single patch I create a “Multi” with just that one patch so I don’t need to go back and forth between Program and Multi modes.  

I was able to get Camelot Pro to function the same way, which is doable for the most part.  

 

On 7/1/2023 at 12:49 PM, bfields said:

 

If you want to select multis that way, you need to set the "Local Keyboard Channel" parameter (under Global->MIDI) to the channel you intend to send the program changes from, and you need to put the keyboard in multi mode; see https://kurzweil.com/2021/06/28/pc4-select-multis-via-midi/.

 

This helped!