Lowest end keyboards: a pity for wannabe players

[Jose EB5AGV]

Although it is not my main job, from time to time I fix some synths, DPs and pro audio gear at my home electronics lab. Usually, we are talking of the likes of Yamaha, Korg, Roland, Kawai, ...

 

But, just yesterday, I got a low, but very low end, keyboard, an Amazon sold RockJam RJ-761. It had an audio amplifier problem, which have solved by replacing the damaged audio amplifier IC. Easy-peasy.

 

But... What can offer that cheap thing to a prospective, usually young player?. You get 200 sounds and 200 rhythms, mostly from very crappy to just useable. Also some basic tools, as a metronome and transpose buttons. And you get a non-velocity responsive (i.e. fixed velocity) lousy keybed. I have played quite a lot of keyboards, even toy ones, but this one ranks in the very lower positions.

 

So, just to check the keyboard kept working for some time after my fix, and also out of curiosity, I have played it for about half an hour. And my conclusion is that, if any prospective player has only access to this kind of thing, I doubt the experience could be of any benefit for any further development. It is so bad that having it could probably lead to losing an opportunity to really learn how to play.

 

I am really sorry to have resurrected that thing, as that would mean a poor soul will get back that lousy thing and won't have access to a proper keyboard. At least will let know the owner that the best he can do is to trash it ASAP.

 

Sorry for the rambling, but I see this as a real shame and something to avoid for even very young beginners. And being so cheap and sold by those monster companies means quite a lot of people will get one of those things as a gift 🤯

 

Jose

[D. Gauss]

sounds a bit over reacting, no? it's def not for Chopin, i bet little kids love those things.  fwiw, this was my first keyboard back in early 80's.  played a lot of big shows with it, too, opening for Wang Chung, The Hooters, etc.  wish i still had it, but it's vintage/kinda legendary now and someone offered me good money for it so i sold it.  fun fact: you can play soft cell's version of "tainted love" almost exact just using one finger and the auto rhythm/bass.

[Jose EB5AGV]

37 minutes ago, D. Gauss said:

sounds a bit over reacting, no? it's def not for Chopin, i bet little kids love those things.  fwiw, this was my first keyboard back in early 80's.  played a lot of big shows with it, too, opening for Wang Chung, The Hooters, etc.  wish i still had it, but it's vintage/kinda legendary now and someone offered me good money for it so i sold it.  fun fact: you can play soft cell's version of "tainted love" almost exact just using one finger and the auto rhythm/bass.

 

Well, my point is that a bad instrument may preclude a brilliant player to become just that. I have some detailed info on the player of that thing and, well, IMO, is a pity that all what that teenager has available is that crappy keyboard. It is perhaps more a critique on parents who buy the cheapest thing which resembles a piano, instead of doing their homework better.

 

Also, compare what you could get some decades ago, to what can be had nowadays for an equivalent amount of cash. Now there are pretty decent keyboards for very low prices. Just don't buy the worst ones for your loved ones! (and I am sure this won't happen with this Forum members, it is just my generic complaint)

 

Just my opinion, of course.

 

Jose

[stoken6]

A little research/advice can get you a solid beginner's keyboard. Casio CT-S1 nails this brief. 

 

Cheers, Mike.

[ElmerJFudd]

There has never been more better quality playing and sounding electronic  instruments available at unbelievably low prices than there are today. That’s a trend that’s been going on for quite a while. 
 

Casio CT-S1 or Yamaha PSR-E373 - $219.99.

 

Yamaha P45 - $499.99. 

 

 

[MathOfInsects]

More access means more interest and more players. People know that if they're getting a cheap-ass instrument, cheap-ass instrument things might happen to it. When people are good enough that the limitations of their starter instrument are holding them back, they upgrade. That's net-gain all around. 

 

When Rock Band and Guitar Hero came out, there was all this consternation from musos that it would shortcut people's process and they wouldn't learn how to play an actual guitar because they could sound good immediately on the game. It turned out that there was a one-to-one relationship between sales of those games and interest in guitar lessons. The stores that sold the most, had the greatest increase in new lessons afterward. 

Anything that gets people in the door is a win, IMO.

 

[Baldwin Funster]

That Amazon KB was meant to be disposable. A generic candy bar isn't meant to be a meal and generic consumer electronics are the equivalent. The original purchaser (I'm assuming the parents of a toddler) had no expectations that jr or young miss would maintain interest.  In about 98% of cases that turns out to be true. A better instrument might knock a percent of that but probably less.

The real shame is that there isn't a place to go in every town where there are real pianos and organs for a kid to go for his afternoons .

[RABid]

4 hours ago, D. Gauss said:

sounds a bit over reacting, no? it's def not for Chopin, i bet little kids love those things.  fwiw, this was my first keyboard back in early 80's.  played a lot of big shows with it, too, opening for Wang Chung, The Hooters, etc.  wish i still had it, but it's vintage/kinda legendary now and someone offered me good money for it so i sold it.  fun fact: you can play soft cell's version of "tainted love" almost exact just using one finger and the auto rhythm/bass.

Dude! I had that exact keyboard in my first setup. Started with an Arp Omni II and a MiniMoog Model D. Needed something other than the string machine to cover polyphonic parts and the bass player suggested that I pick up one of these. I was on a budget and had blown everything I had for the Arp and Moog. Got the little Casio and was shocked how many songs on the radio were using some of those sounds. We played a lot of Cars and it was very handy. It got me by until I picked up an EP and a Hammond. How you play is more important than what you play.

[D. Gauss]

22 minutes ago, RABid said:

Dude! I had that exact keyboard in my first setup. Started with an Arp Omni II and a MiniMoog Model D. Needed something other than the string machine to cover polyphonic parts and the bass player suggested that I pick up one of these. I was on a budget and had blown everything I had for the Arp and Moog. Got the little Casio and was shocked how many songs on the radio were using some of those sounds. We played a lot of Cars and it was very handy. It got me by until I picked up an EP and a Hammond. How you play is more important than what you play.

exactly.  and it ran on batteries! when i had it (1980's), we played some high profile shows, but we were openers so you had to set up quick, and in front of the headliner. my dad got it for me for christmas, (he literally bought it at a kiosk in nyc penn station on his way home from work) and i thought it was the best thing ever...

[Baldwin Funster]

4 hours ago, D. Gauss said:

sounds a bit over reacting, no? it's def not for Chopin, i bet little kids love those things.  fwiw, this was my first keyboard back in early 80's.  played a lot of big shows with it, too, opening for Wang Chung, The Hooters, etc.  wish i still had it, but it's vintage/kinda legendary now and someone offered me good money for it so i sold it.  fun fact: you can play soft cell's version of "tainted love" almost exact just using one finger and the auto rhythm/bass.

There's a couple on reverb for $300+ if you want to relive the good times. I'd get one but I need a pitchwheel.

[D. Gauss]

8 minutes ago, Baldwin Funster said:

There's a couple on reverb for $300+ if you want to relive the good times. I'd get one but I need a pitchwheel.

 

Ha! thanks, but those days are long gone.  last thing i need is more gear...trying to purge things and have the bare minimum.

[Melving]

I learned my chord and melody line playing and all my inversions on a pressure non-sensitive Casio with one good sound.  The fact that it was free really helped.  Some of us need a *very* low bar for entry...  🙂  What does make me feel bad is seeing a professional level pianist with a spinet.  

[D. Gauss]

11 minutes ago, Melving said:

 What does make me feel bad is seeing a professional level pianist with a spinet.  

 

if it was a Baldwin Acrosonic, i wouldn't feel bad (nice piano), and if it was this one, i'd be trying to buy it off you   

[CEB]

Playing Pop Music and covering a lot of Benny Blanco’s work taught me to appreciate cheap consumer grade keyboards. I went on a buying spree around 10 years ago picking up old Yamaha portasound and Casio boards at pawn shop and 2 hand stores.  I never used them out but I sampled several sounds on to the Kronos.  Used to start a lot of gigs with one (Tik Tok by Ke$ha)

[Melving]

30 minutes ago, D. Gauss said:

 

if it was a Baldwin Acrosonic, i wouldn't feel bad (nice piano), and if it was this one, i'd be trying to buy it off you   

 

Cool!  Retrofuturistic...  Or something.

[D. Gauss]

8 minutes ago, Melving said:

 

Cool!  Retrofuturistic...  Or something.

yeah. made a big mistake when i coulda got one of these for 200 bucks on craigslist.  now the MCM (mid century moden) antique folks know about it, and they go for 4k and up.... 

[jazzpiano88]

Not an insignificant number (possibly most?) piano/organ/keyboardists early development were facilitated by having a piano or organ in the house during their formative years.  They took piano lessons or experimented because it was there, or had musically informed parents that enforced lessons.

 

Now that the typical house doesn't have a piano (where back then it was much like having a couch), I wonder what effect this has on the pipeline of keyboardists.

 

[Stokely]

Compared to my first keyboard, modern bottom-end keyboards are like a Nord Stage 7.   It was a Casio with one speaker, it must have had an output as we all had (terrible Peavey) amps.  I mostly played bass on it, because I had very little musical knowledge and was trying to learn songs without realizing you could play such a thing as a "chord" (at age 14).   My 2nd keyboard was a Moog Rogue, had a lot of fun with that one.

All that said, I have some great memories of band practices and even a couple gigs in my high school years.  It wasn't til college that I got a "real" keyboard, a Roland JX10.  So I don't think bad gear necessarily limits a person--in some ways, it forces them to improve to work around limitations.  I couldn't read music (still can't) and developed quite a good ear trying to learn songs from cassette...  My buddy on his Fostex 4-track for instance got VERY good at gain structuring and mixing on the fly, he'd do bounces back and forth a million times to add tracks (much like the Beatles used to do)  

[D. Gauss]

23 minutes ago, JazzPiano88 said:

Not an insignificant number (possibly most?) piano/organ/keyboardists early development were facilitated by having a piano or organ in the house during their formative years.  They took piano lessons or experimented because it was there, or had musically informed parents that enforced lessons.

 

Now that the typical house doesn't have a piano (where back then it was much like having a couch), I wonder what effect this has on the pipeline of keyboardists.

 

 

For folks of my age, this is true. Unfortunately, it didn't apply to me.  All my childhood friends had pianos in their house (and sadly, were forced into lessons for better or worse), but my parents had no instruments in the house, and also no popular music at all. (opera records? yes. Beatles?  no)

[jazzpiano88]

8 minutes ago, Stokely said:

All that said, I have some great memories of band practices and even a couple gigs in my high school years.  It wasn't til college that I got a "real" keyboard, a Roland JX10.  So I don't think bad gear necessarily limits a person--in some ways, it forces them to improve to work around limitations.

 

In high school I was fortunate to acquire my first real keyboard. I took a loan from the local music store on a repossessed Rhodes 73 suitcase, mint ($1100 for 12 monthly payments plus a small amount of interest).  Luckily it barely fit into the backseat and trunk of my parent's Toyota Corona.  Songs in the Key of Life had just come out and I brought these to the band I had just joined along with Doobie Brothers and Billy Joel tunes I knew.

 

Such great memories... hopefully aspiring keyboardists are not limited by toy keyboards as the OP mentions and will seek out something inspiring, even if there is some financial risk.

 

[Finale]

 

[jazzpiano88]

19 minutes ago, D. Gauss said:

For folks of my age, this is true. Unfortunately, it didn't apply to me.  All my childhood friends had pianos in their house (and sadly, were forced into lessons for better or worse), but my parents had no instruments in the house, and also no popular music at all. (opera records? yes. Beatles?  no)

 

So it sounds like you were able to overcome one of the fundamental barriers.   I think that's great and impressive, and it happens a lot, but wonder what happens when access to a piano is fundamentally gone to the larger population. 

 

My parents had the spinet piano, but I attribute my musical ear to them providing a stack of a hundred childrens' records that I would listen to for 4+ hours per day.  Then when my friends got together to listen pop/rock music, and after 5 years of piano lessons, playing 3 dog night by ear seemed like "oooh this is easy.  I can do this!". 

[D. Gauss]

10 minutes ago, JazzPiano88 said:

 

 3 dog night 

 

3 dog night. "naturally."  first album i bought with my own money.  age 10.

[Jose EB5AGV]

13 hours ago, Baldwin Funster said:

That Amazon KB was meant to be disposable. A generic candy bar isn't meant to be a meal and generic consumer electronics are the equivalent. The original purchaser (I'm assuming the parents of a toddler) had no expectations that jr or young miss would maintain interest.  In about 98% of cases that turns out to be true. A better instrument might knock a percent of that but probably less.

The real shame is that there isn't a place to go in every town where there are real pianos and organs for a kid to go for his afternoons .

 

In this case, the "toddler" is a 14 y.o. girl. So my worries for her not having a proper keyboard available

[MathOfInsects]

My brothers. Please do not forget that we are whatever came before dinosaurs. No one needs a Toyota-stretching Rhodes in 2023 to press keys and hear sounds. A cheap controller and a phone is a whole world for an aspiring player. The lack of a piano in houses is less about lack of interest or access, and more about readily available alternatives.

 

The kids will be fine. Music ain’t going anywhere. Only we are. 😎

[RABid]

When I started lessons my parents bought a brand new Wurlitzer spinet. It had the most horrible action ever. Several technicians looked at it but no one could ever fix the problem of sticking keys.

 

My first synth was a Model D MiniMoog. Osc 2 would not stay in tune and that thing drove me crazy on stage.

 

My third synth was the Casio mentioned above. Cheap. Portable. A toy. But also dependable. It was what it was, but it never held me back or gave me problems like the piano or MiniMoog.

[Melving]

3 hours ago, MathOfInsects said:

My brothers. Please do not forget that we are whatever came before dinosaurs. No one needs a Toyota-stretching Rhodes in 2023 to press keys and hear sounds. A cheap controller and a phone is a whole world for an aspiring player. The lack of a piano in houses is less about lack of interest or access, and more about readily available alternatives.

 

The kids will be fine. Music ain’t going anywhere. Only we are. 😎

I'll be old next year.

[Justin Havu]

I first learned on a Yamaha PSS-130.  Frustrating since it only had 2-note polyphony so making triads was impossible.  Then again, I just turned 5 when I got one brand-new.

Started working with both hands on a PSS-270 (which I still have.  Charming little board.)  Basic 2-op FM synthesis, 10 voices of poly, some of the sounds were layered, so it cut the polyphony in half, even more if you were using the auto-accompaniment section.  

 

I wouldn't mind having a few of those old PortaSounds around just to play with.  Like I said above, there's a bit of a charm about those.

[Reezekeys]

"Charm" is one thing - yes, some of those older cheap keyboards were used in a way that was appropriate to the style of music they were being employed in. Hell, some of that music may have been conceived because of the cheesy sounds! Many of us also have rose-tinted ears when remembering the keyboards we started out on. I don't think that was Jose's point though. If you're a teenager getting at all serious about making music and you're doing it on a keyboard, imo it has to at least be velocity sensitive! Actually, the prices of keyboards with halfway-decent acoustic and electric piano sounds has declined quite a bit, so I agree with Jose that there's no excuse for a kid to start with something like the keyboard he describes repairing - regardless of how many of us played boards like that in our youth. Just because we may have had to made do with 2-note polyphony, mini keys and no velocity doesn't mean any kid today has to. IMO. BTW my first keyboard (at age 13) was a "Whitehall Compact Duo" organ - no velocity sensitivity of course, but it was an organ! 🙂 

[Baldwin Funster]

I'm not sure what a keyboard buyer expects to get for $90 including bench and stand. From Amazon. It's not like there aren't very usable beginners keyboards under or around the $200 mark. 

I realize I'm criticizing people I don't even know but cmon buy your kid a decent instrument.