The keyboard player paradox

[Jose EB5AGV]

I am not sure if the title is right, but read and judge by yourself...

 

The situation: I use to record all and every band rehearsal. For that, I use two Zoom recorders, one of them an H6. The other one, which is also a video recorder, is just used to record an audio stereo signal on an strategic room position. But on last rehearsals, I have started a new record way with the H6 (which I hope to expand recording more separate tracks in the future). I record with the X-Y built in mic, which looks towards the drums, and then also record a track directly from the LINE OUT of my MODX6+. That way, I have a perfect record of my playing, so I can work on it later (and get red-faced by my mistakes 😅). So I took a song from last rehearsal recording and worked on it this last weekend.

 

Some magic applied: Using those two tracks and some AI (Moises software), I was able to get very good drums and bass tracks. Vocals were a bit muddy, but using some effects, could use them. The sax is omnipresent along voice and guitar tracks, so it was also represented. But the guitar was not properly recorded because it was exactly 180 degree from the X-Y mics. The keys were completely lost in the noise on that X-Y mic, but I had my own track 😉

 

The new mix: so, once I had isolated the tracks and added some EQ and compression as needed on each, I did my mix in Cubase. Boy, it sounded nice for such a limited recorded material!. Trust me, I set the keys at a level which were in no way intrusive. I was pretty happy with it, so much that I shared my experiment with the group.

 

The opinions: singer and drummer liked it. But then, the sax player wrote: "it sounds fine... But the group does not sound that way. There is too much keys and too little guitar". OK, I agree that the guitar was too low and did later a better work on it, taking it to its usual level and shared that new mix. My fault, I know.

 

My POV: What hurts me is that the song, which I can mix with close to no keys (not using the keyboard track), is for sure worse sounding that way. But the band is so used to non-noticeable keys that, when they are heard, it raises an eyebrow.

 

The plan: I will generate a mix without the keys and one with them. I will play it in the rehearsal room using the PA. And will directly ask the other band members what they honestly prefer. If the majority thinks the non-keys one is better, I will be done with the band. I am not there to be a nice wallpaper 😡

 

Sorry for the rant, I hope you understand my frustration with this 😥

 

Jose

[BluMunk]

You should do what feels right to you, no doubt. That said, giving them a "no keys" mix and a "with keys" mix to choose from will probably come across as passive aggressive (or just aggressive). If you're set on this ultimatum, it might be worth stepping back without that step.

It sounds like one guy in the band thought the keys were too high in your mix. Can't please everyone. I'd either let it go, or see if the band is open to discussions about the mix in general, agree on the goal/sound as a group, and try to work towards that goal in the rehearsal setting.

[Jose EB5AGV]

3 minutes ago, BluMunk said:

You should do what feels right to you, no doubt. That said, giving them a "no keys" mix and a "with keys" mix to choose from will probably come across as passive aggressive (or just aggressive). If you're set on this ultimatum, it might be worth stepping back without that step.

It sounds like one guy in the band thought the keys were too high in your mix. Can't please everyone. I'd either let it go, or see if the band is open to discussions about the mix in general, agree on the goal/sound as a group, and try to work towards that goal in the rehearsal setting.

 

Well, I have explained one case... but this kind of comments are not the exception, has happened before.

 

Anyway, I will try to be less agressive on my "A/B" test, that is a good idea. And will also work on a better rehearsal mix.

 

Thanks!

 

Jose

[Baldwin Funster]

Some bands are "keys in the far background and sweeten the gaps" bands. Like Rainbow.

 

Some are "keys equal to guitars". Like Styx.

 

My band is sort of in-between. The singer usually wants the keys louder. The bass player doesn't want keys too loud. The guitar player thinks I'm too loud when he plays We Gotta Get Out Of This Place. But needs the rhythm support on Shotgun.

 

My problem is we don't have a live mixing dude. So who knows what the FOH hears. I'm either going to be too loud or not too loud enough on every song. 

[Lou Gehrig Charles]

25 minutes ago, Baldwin Funster said:

Some bands are "keys in the far background and sweeten the gaps" bands. Like Rainbow.

 

My keyboard hero is Don Airey, so if I could just play like him....  I wouldn't mind being in the background!    🎹

[Konnector]

Hmmm.... You're talking about one song here that you presented to the band. No idea what song it is, but some songs are just more guitar driven by nature. Mixing the keys so they're louder than the guitar can definitely change the vibe of the song. Try it again capturing more of the guitar and see what the band thinks. If the general concensus is still "turn the keys down", then you'll need to decide whether the band is the right fit for you.

 

It's a never ending battle that keyboardists often face playing in "guitar" bands. I've only ever played in bands that had a "guitar/keys are an equal 50/50" concept. A good approach is to use sounds that blend really well with a guitar. That might involve amp sims, pedals, and good "guitarish" type tones, etc. Depends on the song of course, but sometimes sounding like a second guitar is exactly what the song needs and allows the keys to be an equal force in the mix.

 

 

 

 

[JamPro]

I myself would not challenge my bandmates to say whether they prefer a recording with keys or without keys.  It puts your bandmates in an uncomfortable situation: do they risk insulting you with their honest thoughts about your keyboard playing, or do they take the path of least resistance and simply tell you what you want to hear.

 

Of course you think the recordings sound better with keys up front.  But your guitarist is convinced keys should be subservient to guitar; the vocalist thinks the vocals should be the center of attention, and the drummer will tell you the kick drum should be the loudest instrument in the band.

 

You are the one making the recording.  Ask yourself, why are the keys quiet in the recording?  Is it mic placement?  Are you playing quietly out of fear of making clams everyone hears?  Are the keys running thru the band PA and someone else is controlling your volume?  Figure it out, and address that problem in your next recording.

 

Playing in an ensemble is tricky: you need good keyboard technique to play the song correctly; you need to balance your volume with the others; you need to be pay attention to what others are doing; you need to support the vocalist and soloist; etc.  This is advanced music making, even when playing simple material.  Few playing in weekend warrior situations have those skills.  And you in particular must develop those skills while accepting that others in the band may not have such skills.

[ABECK]

Trying to make any band member happy with a mix is near impossible.  You might try your experiment on people who aren't in the band as another data point.

[cphollis]

"The band does not sound that way" -- neither a good nor objective basis for comparison. Instead: "how should the band sound?"  That's always a good discussion to have, and everyone should contribute.

 

Personal experience mixing: drummer says "it sucks, needs more drums", bass player says "it sucks, more bass", ... you get the idea.  It took me several iterations of mixing and mastering to get to the point where everyone had a thumbs up.  Follow the link in my sig and there's a chapter on this in the guide I wrote.

 

Hint: it took a while.

 

 

[timwat]

In any organization, the most long-term profitable / beneficial path is the one of honest, transparent communication. ALWAYS.

 

It's just in some organizations, the way interpersonal relationships can form means sometimes that's difficult...or impossible with some of the members.

 

But you haven't said that's where the band members are at.

 

So I'd try to create a whole-band, face-to-face conversation and lay out how you're feeling without blaming anyone else. And be prepared to listen to what the honest feedback is, even if it may temporarily injure your feelings.

 

It doesn't sound to me like the band is thinking, "We like having Jose around, we just don't want him to make any sound." If that's accurate, then there's a big question to be answered..."What does the band want to hear from the keyboards, and is there something I'm doing that I can improve?"

 

Their answer to those questions may be off-base. Or they might not be. But I think at this stage of your development as a musician, it's certainly worth trying to ask the question.

 

Hoping the best for you, brother.

 

[CHarrell]

13 minutes ago, timwat said:

But I think at this stage of your development as a musician

 

Beautiful advice all around, and I think this kind of situation, as frustrating as it can be in the moment, is also just good for developing as a person. If this sort of thing goes unaddressed in a forthright way, it will inevitably lead to simmering resentment that will bubble over in ways that will create even more friction between you and the band members.

 

Your consideration in taking the rest of the band's feedback is admirable, and you've put a lot of effort into creating something that will please them, but you're a member of the band too! As such, your voice deserves to be heard! It's clear that you don't feel your needs being met, but as someone once told me, "Closed mouths don't get fed", and your band peeps ain't mind-readers.

[lightbg]

If there’s not enough guitar in the mix………. Then it’s perfect.

That being said, all my video recordings are done with my trusty Zoom Q2N-4K and I don’t remix or remaster. I throw them up on you tube and everyone in the band is thrilled to see themselves…. Even the guitar player.

As long as it serves your purpose don’t ask for critique - if they complain let them invest in a camera and knock themselves out.

[Stokely]

The sax player sounds like someone who is new to live playing in a band.  Of course a recording of a band in rehearsal doesn't "sound like the band."  A recording of the band AT A GIG doesn't sound like what the audience heard AT THAT GIG, depending somewhat on the method of recording.  A mic in the room doesn't really represent what a human hears, especially a crappy cell phone mic--and a recording from the mixer is usually incomplete (no stage sound) or again isn't going to be what is out front.

If your goal is a live band demo, the only option IMO is individual multi-tracks that are mixed later (just like big bands do it).  Is that mix what people heard?  Almost certainly not, especially if you "cheat" and do pitch correction or fly in parts to fix mistakes.

I do get the whole persecuted keyboard player thing.  I can't count how many times our singer has gone out front to tweak a mix, then I hear from friends after the set that they can't hear keys.  Not every time, I've heard recordings where the keys are too loud.  There's no way to tell from stage especially when you are on in-ears.

My biggest annoyance is that nobody else seems to care whether I record the band or not.  Personally, besides demos, it's very useful to see what is working part-wise and patch-wise and what isn't.    Nobody really seems interested in remixed multitracks and the drummer rarely if ever mics up every drum so it's going to sound iffy at best (at least I'd want overheads, kick and snare).   Oh well, if I find it useful I'll do it, I don't worry about others unless they express interes.

[Jose EB5AGV]

1 hour ago, ABECK said:

Trying to make any band member happy with a mix is near impossible.  You might try your experiment on people who aren't in the band as another data point.

 

This!

 

In that rehearsal, there was a guest, who formerly played with the band. I didn't know him. The band, until about a year ago, when I arrived, had no keys. Well, he said literally the keyboard added to the group sound and was what he liked the most of the "new" band (only two members of the current band where in when he played)

 

He is a seasoned musician, so I felt vindicated 😉

 

All in all, yes, it is just impossible to keep everyone happy. I just want to be heard. The cause the mix was so low on keys is because the recorder position. I use just a monitor and it was 180 degrees and far from the recorder. So in gigs the keys are louder than on that recording. But I recorded the keys separately as I knew that would happen.

 

Regards,

 

Jose

[Stokely]

Case in point, I presented a mixed song recorded at a local club that mics up and records everything; they gave me the tracks and I mixed them down afterwards.

Our singer was complaining about the mix.  Hey, mixes are subjective, and despite referencing to known material and a fair bit of experience I'm willing to make changes as needed and compromise.  So first I asked what she was listening on.  Her phone, ok.  What earbuds?  No earbuds.  She was listening to the mix on the ****ing phone speaker, "like everyone does"  O_o    Yeah at that point I just said, well that was fun and stopped sharing mixes.

[The Real MC]

1 hour ago, Stokely said:

So first I asked what she was listening on.  Her phone, ok.  What earbuds?  No earbuds.  She was listening to the mix on the ****ing phone speaker, "like everyone does"  O_o    Yeah at that point I just said, well that was fun and stopped sharing mixes.

 

Mobile speakers are the worse.  I've done band mixes that happened to sound good on laptop and mobile speakers, I got lucky was not consciously aiming for that.  Could be my EQ technique, could be my compression, my delays/reverbs (all OTB BTW) - who knows?

[Stokely]

I mean, nothing sounds "good" on such a tiny crappy speaker.   Mainly I refuse to believe that many people actually listen to music that way.  

[The Real MC]

2 hours ago, cphollis said:

"The band does not sound that way" -- neither a good nor objective basis for comparison. Instead: "how should the band sound?"  That's always a good discussion to have, and everyone should contribute.

 

Personal experience mixing: drummer says "it sucks, needs more drums", bass player says "it sucks, more bass", ... you get the idea.  It took me several iterations of mixing and mastering to get to the point where everyone had a thumbs up.

Two years ago I was making mixes from live recordings of the southern rock band I was in.  Very guitar dominant.  As I progressed with songs I brought them to rehearsal for feedback.  Everyone all around like the mixes, the instruments were balanced enough that no one complained more this more that.  While I am very conscious of balancing everything, there WERE times I caught myself with my keys too loud in the mix.

[The Real MC]

3 hours ago, Baldwin Funster said:

Some bands are "keys in the far background and sweeten the gaps" bands. Like Rainbow.

 

Been in too many of those.  Friends have told me they are a waste of my talent.

 

Quote

Some are "keys equal to guitars". Like Styx.

 

My personal preference.  Still on the lookout for that band in FL.

[Jose EB5AGV]

2 hours ago, lightbg said:

If there’s not enough guitar in the mix………. Then it’s perfect.

That being said, all my video recordings are done with my trusty Zoom Q2N-4K and I don’t remix or remaster. I throw them up on you tube and everyone in the band is thrilled to see themselves…. Even the guitar player.

As long as it serves your purpose don’t ask for critique - if they complain let them invest in a camera and knock themselves out.

 

My secondary recorder is also a Q2N-4k!. I only record audio with it because I don't see a position to have all the band in. We are somewhat cramped...

[RABid]

I have not had trouble with band members wanting the keys turned down, but I have had trouble with sound men that did not know how to mix with keys and fixed the problem of muddy sound by turning down the keys. But hey, it was years before I heard the concept that every instrument needs its space. Some sounds coming out of keys are instant mud. Strings and hover pads are primary. You may want to look at your own sounds and see if you can tighten things up and push into a smaller space. EQ strings and pads. Adjust ADSR's and cut back sustain and release. Turn off the reverb. The room should provide that. Avoid the bass player's domain. Involve your sound man in a discussion about carving out a space for keys. 

 

I made so many mistakes in my early years because I did not understand mixing. The band and the sound man also did not know. It is much different when you go from being a guitar only band to adding keys. It was actually the other musicians in my first keyboard band that told the sound man "turn up the keys or else."

[Stokely]

My bandmates do get frustrated with patches being different volumes.  I think most of us can relate--no matter how much work you put in, the reality is that patches are going to pop out depending on the speakers, the earbuds, the other instruments and so on.   I have decided to only go mono from now on, which should help; if I monitor in glorious stereo, while they (and the audience) are listening to mono, I run the risk of not hearing volume jumps.  I know piano has been a problem in the past.   Compressing might help but as Eric (iirc) pointed out in another thread, this can be an issue if you decide to boost say for a solo.  You will end up potentially just compressing more without gaining much in the way of volume, which was the goal.    When you do get a volume jump in a song, anyone tweaking the sound is liable to mix you to that level, which means you end up too low unless someone is actively adjusting (LOL right!  We often don't have a dedicated sound person out front, and when we do a lot of them are pretty damn lazy in my experience....)

It's one reason I tend to use less patches and re-use them from song to song.  The other being that I'm a lazy bastard.

Some guitarists have this same issue, if they use tons of patches.  Ours does not, he's got his modeler set like he has one "amp" and then uses his guitar volume and playing to adjust.  With a few exceptions for slow tunes and special effects.  But by a large margin, I have the most patches with the most different tones in the band, so it's easy to point and say "see!" when I'm a tad too loud on one song.  I do my best!

[ProfD]

Beyond the obvious, this is just another reason that I'm a huge proponent of KB player led bands. 😁

 

I realize this is not an option for the OP who is still in the learning mode. 

 

But, I hope these band experiences will lead to growth and confidence as a musician.😎

[o0Ampy0o]

FWIW just reading about your situations and looking at this as an outsider:

 

The black or white presentation of keyboards or no keyboards is taking it to a level where it doesn't fit. As someone mentioned, it is passive-aggressive. Instead if you want to present a choice offer them a full and lite version of keyboard mix, neither being zero keyboards. Including one keyboard mix and a zero keyboards mix says, "my mix of keyboards or I am leaving." If you are already to quit tell them. If there is room to give them some chances to hear you, consider and decide then give them options in that range.

 

The singer disliking the mix when she listened with the speakers of her cell phone needs a cell phone mix. John Lennon hated the stereo mix of Revolution. They had perfected the single's mix for mono AM radio and he felt it was superior. Instead of writing her off you could give her a mix in her language and mention how it needs to be different from other listening formats.

[Stokely]

Yeah sorry I'm not doing a mix for cell phone speakers.  I draw that line in the sand!  If I was a pro getting paid, sure....but otherwise I put that down to being flaky and I'm not going to spare it a thought.   If a lot of people are listening to music on cell phone speakers, I don't want to know about it, as I already have a pretty dim view of the public   (ok, I kid, sorta)

Seriously, I do check mixes at very low volumes, which is a way to see what is popping out (vocals and maybe a bit of snare in my experience might last a tad longer than everything else as you turn down to oblivion).  That would have to work for cell phone speakers, otherwise tough cookies!  I should also mention she had made a few other...odd...comments on the mix--like it was "too good", meaning she was used to cell phone room recordings and felt it should sound like that.  I had made a point to not over-polish and treat the thing like a studio recording, not using lots of different verbs etc.  Did Live at Budokan or any other live album sound like a cell phone recording?  No!.  At a certain point, you just smile and wave and move on.

[o0Ampy0o]

🙂  Unlike AM radio in general, there are greater differences between cell phone speakers. I have an old iPhone 8. It is practically rhythmic static compared to the lowest quality audio I would tolerate for music.

[Stokely]

When I learned mixing, we had a set of Auratones (or similar crappy small speakers) to simulate car speakers. I get that you do need to compromise.  I take mixes out to my car, try them (and reference material) on different systems and earbuds.  In the end you make compromises.  As I get older I trust my ears a bit less, I suspect I'm leaving in more high end than I should

Anyway, didn't mean to derail.  Back to singing the keyboard player's lament (in A#).

[Jose EB5AGV]

13 minutes ago, o0Ampy0o said:

The black or white presentation of keyboards or no keyboards is taking it to a level where it doesn't fit. As someone mentioned, it is passive-aggressive. Instead if you want to present a choice offer them a full and lite version of keyboard mix, neither being zero keyboards. Including one keyboard mix and a zero keyboards mix says, "my mix of keyboards or I am leaving." If you are already to quit tell them. If there is room to give them some chances to hear you, consider and decide then give them options in that range.

 

Yes, you are right. I have been too harsh on that idea. If fact, trust me, I am really grateful to the band as they have allowed a complete noob (had never played before in public nor in a band) to play with them.

 

But sometimes I am sad to see my contribution to the overall sound is not valued as I wish. Or perhaps is just my perception 🤔

 

I do my homework on the patches so they sound nice for each song, are of a similar volume and such. I am pretty perfectionist (I am an engineer 😅) and want the band to get better!. There are songs which don't need but some background pads, and I play that. It is not a matter of being always present... Just when the songs call for it 🎹💪🏻

[stoken6]

Here's a suggestion: 

Use your Zoom H6 recorder to playback both the mic recording and your keyboard track - simultaneously, in sync. Pass it around the band and ask them to adjust the faders "I'm trying to get my levels correct. How much keys would you put in the mix?" 

 

This would:

1. Demonstrate to the band that everyone has different views

2. Get you an answer to the question "am I valued" without being as provocative

 

Cheers, Mike.

[PianoMan51]

“But the band is so used to non-noticeable keys that, when they are heard, it raises an eyebrow.”
 

This is where I would start any ‘corrective measures ‘. Forget about recording. Forget about level matching patches. 
 

The band doesn’t hear the keyboards at a reasonably correct volume. They don’t know what the keys are doing. How can any of them make their own musical choices while performing?

 

So, fix the live stage sound first. Reposition the players, the amps, the monitors, levels, EQs, etc. until everyone in the band can hear everyone else equally, but themselves a little louder.