"This synth isn't for me." vs "I'm just not feeling it right now"?

[PolyBrute]

Curious how many "failure to launch" sessions you'll have with a synth before you just accept the thing isn't for you. I know we can all have off nights, times we're not feeling well or inspired, etc. and of course, if you don't properly and adequately learn the machine, you'll struggle continuously.

 

But I'm wondering how many of these sessions you'll accept before you start to accept that maybe it's not you - maybe your synth or keyboard is just not the one you wanted or thought it would be.

 

I've been experiencing this with my new PolyBrute. I feel like the videos I watched prior to buying made me really want it. But now that it's been in my possession for a couple weeks, I find that every time I turn it on, I'm just frustrated and overwhelmed with the complexity, while at the same time underwhelmed by the presets, which are usually, in my experience, good starting points.

 

In any case, I know I haven't been getting as much sleep as I need lately, and the ergonomics of my studio have created a lot of frustration (had to put the keyboard in a way that made me have to lean over awkwardly to read labels and make edits), and I'm still struggling with the correct signal chain (have several things going into a mixer that's going into my KORG Kronos workstation, that's then going into my Mac Mini, so the gain staging might be all wrong).

 

In any case, i'm not at the point of throwing in the towel, but curious what others' journeys are like; surely you've had doubts and/or don't love your favorite synth all the time, eh?

 

Sorry for the mini rant. Just frustrated and tired at the moment.

[mcgoo]

I also have a Polybrute. I love mine, but still feel like I've got a long way to go to really explore its capabilities. One thing you could do to simplify it initially is just put it in the "A" mode only... ie, focus on creating a single 2osc sound. Suddenly it becomes like most other poly's. Get a sound you like and then think about creating something similar on the B side. Then witness the morphing... That in itself can inspire further tweaking. Good luck! 

[PolyBrute]

Yeah, I still haven't even begun to wrap my head around the signal flow or the mod matrix. What seems like it should be intuitive and obvious (ie, hold a mod button to assign it to the funciton on its respective axes) doesn't work. I always get an error. I'm about 1/3 of the way through the manual, so I'll hold judgment for now. just gotta spend some real time with it, like a full weekend or something where I can turn it up as loud as I like...

[ProfD]

1 hour ago, PolyBrute said:

I've been experiencing this with my new PolyBrute. I feel like the videos I watched prior to buying made me really want it. 

 

...my KORG Kronos workstation...

My 1st question would be what does the PolyBrute offer that the Korg Kronos does not.  

 

I realize the PolyBrute is more tactile from a sound programming perspective. 

 

Otherwise, 2 oscillator sounds should be child's play for the Kronos considering it has 9 synth engines.😎

[mcgoo]

1 hour ago, ProfD said:

My 1st question would be what does the PolyBrute offer that the Korg Kronos does not.  

 

I own both. Believe me, lots & lots & lots. The Kronos also does lots & lots & lots that the PolyBrute doesn't do. They're totally different animals.

[Dave Keys]

The Dave Smith Prophet 08 did that for me, and that’s no disrespect to the instrument. I had to face facts that you have to have time for tweaking, like I did with my Juno’s and JX’s when I was 16-18 years old. Nowadays as I’m writing production music and doing covers bands, I need to lay my hands on the sounds very quickly. For the covers bands, I sometimes have to tweak - for example, the YC73 is a magnificent board but to get a good clav for superstition, I had to knock one up myself. 

[Artomas]

At first, I was maxing out my Kronos' internal headroom, but didn't realize it. That's possible. My suggestion for checking the gainstaging on the Kronos: go to the mfx and tfx sub-tab in the fx tab. Check those meters when the audio-in synths are playing. If you're pegging them, turn down the audio inputs on the K, balance the other synths' gains at your submixer or via each synth's output, and then bring up the Kronos audio inputs' volume so that those meters don't max out. That's a simplification tho, because you might have something between the inputs and outputs (modulation or ifx, or an internal sound, for example) causing a headroom issue. I found that out the hard way, too.

 

Specific to the Polybrute, it offers a much better control surface except for the keyboard action itself, IMO. But the big ribbon, morphee, knobs, and matrix should make sound design much more intuitive. The parameter morphing between 2 layers is something I don't know how to do on the Kronos. Fast modulation, feedback, filter response and resonance, all will sound different. I think, if you don't like "playing the knobs", so to speak, and if you like 2 handed chords, then it's probably not the best choice. If you like starting from good presets, then one option is to try one or more of the commercially available preset packs (after checking out what's available to download for free from Arturia first). Fwiw, I passed on the Polybrute, but am interested (so far) in the UDO Super Gemini for this type of synth (not VCO, but for analog style "knobs explorations"). It's possible that the Polybrute just doesn't do it for you, but it's also possible you're just on edge lately for whatever reason... I think what you do next somewhat depends on when the return window ends!

[PolyBrute]

1 hour ago, ProfD said:

My 1st question would be what does the PolyBrute offer that the Korg Kronos does not.  

 

I realize the PolyBrute is more tactile from a sound programming perspective. 

 

Otherwise, 2 oscillator sounds should be child's play for the Kronos considering it has 9 synth engines.😎

Man. I had about two paragraphs typed but then my PC restarted. Long of the short of it is that yes, you nailed it: the tactile aspect of twisting knobs is missing from the Kronos. Sound-wise, I'm sure it's far superior. I will say, and I won't dismiss that it's bias or just BS, that I immediately could tell the difference in the analog sound when I first plugged it in. Analog synths are definitely something special (better or worse is debatable)... But yeah, the Kronos has all the 9 engines, but trying to create a MS-20 patch is a nightmare on the Kronos. The PolySix is a bit more intuitive, but the AL-1 is just nonsense lol. Regardless, using the knobs on the PB is far superior, IMO. 

 

26 minutes ago, mcgoo said:

 

I own both. Believe me, lots & lots & lots. The Kronos also does lots & lots & lots that the PolyBrute doesn't do. They're totally different animals.

Admittedly, I haven't more than scratched the surface of the Kronos. I mainly just slap between 2 and 5 sounds split up across the key range for use in my cover band. I haven't really dug in and messed with modulation sources and whatnot, but I'm still sure the PolyBrute, with its mod matrix can do a crap ton the Kronos doesn't (or at least without menu diving for days).

 

17 minutes ago, Artomas said:

At first, I was maxing out my Kronos' internal headroom, but didn't realize it. That's possible. My suggestion for checking the gainstaging on the Kronos: go to the mfx and tfx sub-tab in the fx tab. Check those meters when the audio-in synths are playing. If you're pegging them, turn down the audio inputs on the K, balance the other synths' gains at your submixer or via each synth's output, and then bring up the Kronos audio inputs' volume so that those meters don't max out. That's a simplification tho, because you might have something between the inputs and outputs (modulation or ifx, or an internal sound, for example) causing a headroom issue. I found that out the hard way, too.

 

Specific to the Polybrute, it offers a much better control surface except for the keyboard action itself, IMO. But the big ribbon, morphee, knobs, and matrix should make sound design much more intuitive. The parameter morphing between 2 layers is something I don't know how to do on the Kronos. Fast modulation, feedback, filter response and resonance, all will sound different. I think, if you don't like "playing the knobs", so to speak, and if you like 2 handed chords, then it's probably not the best choice. If you like starting from good presets, then one option is to try one or more of the commercially available preset packs (after checking out what's available to download for free from Arturia first). Fwiw, I passed on the Polybrute, but am interested (so far) in the UDO Super Gemini for this type of synth (not VCO, but for analog style "knobs explorations"). It's possible that the Polybrute just doesn't do it for you, but it's also possible you're just on edge lately for whatever reason... I think what you do next somewhat depends on when the return window ends!

Good tips; I'll look again at my gain staging. I think I really haven't decided how I want to run things yet. I have this notion of not having to open Logic and just recording everything into my Kronos, but then that's probably more trouble than it's worth, honestly, and just opening a template in Logic might be best after all.

 

The synth I REALLY want is the Oberheim OB-8X. I might wait until that comes down in price a bit (or pick up the desktop version). I don't necessarily want to return the PolyBrute, even if it may not be "the one" because I do think I will get lots of good use out of it. I actually really like the keybed (I know lots of people complain about it), so I'm happy using it for its internal sounds as well as as a controller for my Model D and possibly other desktop synths I buy in the future. I've also been looking into the ASM Hydrasynth and the Behringer DeepMind12...

[David Emm]

I can relate to your issue. Some synths come with amazing presets that are already 98% "There," some come with vanilla duds. I long ago learned to buy a few 3rd-party sound sets as a base from which I could take greater leaps and usually much sooner. Reverse-engineering the best patches yields good sounds and better understanding of the instrument. You dropped large bucks on the Poly. Drop a few more and see if someone has brought its best features closer to the surface.

 

You can do a search on your own, but here are two options that look interesting.

 

https://lfo.store/product-category/hardware-synths/arturia-polybrute/

 

https://www.geosynths.com/polybrute

[PolyBrute]

5 minutes ago, David Emm said:

I can relate to your issue. Some synths come with amazing presets that are already 98% "There," some come with vanilla duds. I long ago learned to buy a few 3rd-party sound sets as a base from which I could take greater leaps and usually much sooner. Reverse-engineering the best patches yields good sounds and better understanding of the instrument. You dropped large bucks on the Poly. Drop a few more and see if someone has brought its best features closer to the surface.

 

You can do a search on your own, but here are two options that look interesting.

 

https://lfo.store/product-category/hardware-synths/arturia-polybrute/

 

https://www.geosynths.com/polybrute

Thanks! That's not a bad idea. As a guitarist, I always advise against buying presets, as it's more valuable to learn to dial in the equipment on your own and, while this seems a little hypocritical to accept it for keys, I think the scenarios are different enough that it makes sense (with guitar, the preset creator doesn't have your guitar, your fingers, your technique, your amp/monitors, etc.).

 

I think I also need to try it with the app so I can see the position of knobs in real time, rather than having to move a knob to find its realtime position.

 

Also, if someone knows off hand, for some reason, when I use the arp on the PB and then hit stop, the lower half of the keyboard stops responding and producing notes. Makes no sense...

[Motif88]

I purchased an Osmose, wanted to love but wound up returning it. I've had a long line of workstations - 3 Yamaha's and moved to the Kronos before I wound up with my current gear. I grew to dislike the Yamaha OS/UI.

 

Using: Roland RD-2000, Hydrasynth Deluxe, Mac Studio, Studio Display, Logic Pro, Arturia:V Collection 9/Cherry Audio:GX-80, Dreamsynth, Quadra/ G-Force: OB-E, Oddity3/VPS Avenger/Korg:MS20,Triton/Native:Komplete 14/Roland Cloud Pro/Spectrasonics:Keyscape,Omnisphere/uhe:Diva,Hive,Zebra2/HZ

 

Sold: Korg:Kronos 88,T3,MS20,Yamaha:Motif XS8,Motif ES8,Motif 8,KX88,TX7, Oberheim:Modular 8 Voice,OBXa,OB8,Prophet 5,Roland D50,Dyno-My-Rhodes,Crumar T2

[timwat]

This thread reminds me there are several different types of synth users out there. Most of us these days (myself included) will judge a synth in great part with our first experience with the the first 10 or 12 presets. For many of us, perhaps the most patch development we'll ever perform is a little envelope tweaking and filter cutoff adjusting. To be frank, with modern synth offerings in a cover band setting, that's about all you need to do. Create your splits / layers ahead of time for particular songs, and folks will think you spent hours Thomas Dolby-ing some Science. I think some service guys once said whenever they service a synth they find that the presets haven't been changed at all 80% of the time (or something like that).

 

Others of us may have come up having to initialize a patch and subtractive our way to a sound from scratch...often because we are so freaking ancient, when we started synths didn't have much in the way of preset capacity and there wasn't another way (like the CS80's "presets under a lid"). 

 

And, of course, when the Kronos comes with an embarrassment of riches right out of the box, a LOT of players are going to run our of discretionary time before they even audit every single one of those existing variations. Not to mention how many presets come in Omnisphere and similar.

 

Anyway, my comment to the OP was going to be that until I've initialized a patch and tried to build a few things from scratch, I don't feel like I've given a unit a fair shake. But these days, that's not really true for me anymore. I'm going to make a quicker judgement (right or wrong) before I feel like I'm not feeling it.

 

Of course, what helps is that the last synth I bought was an OB6. I can spend several hours programming that thing and not come up with a bad sound.

 

 

[Tusker]

Nothing wrong with not loving a synth for awhile.

 

If you are wanting to bond with the Polybrute more, might I suggest trying the following in addition to approaching the brute through sound design?

 

First, try a daily personal jam session and maybe a few recordings of these jams that you can review while taking a walk? The musical purpose becomes clearer when we couple it with tactile interaction and a musical context.

 

Second, try building a little 30 second track using only the PB, then try another one.

 

Third, try taking the polybrute to a local jam session and enjoying what happens when you play with other people.

[ProfD]

3 hours ago, PolyBrute said:

Long of the short of it is that yes, you nailed it: the tactile aspect of twisting knobs is missing from the Kronos. Sound-wise, I'm sure it's far superior. I will say, and I won't dismiss that it's bias or just BS, that I immediately could tell the difference in the analog sound when I first plugged it in. Analog synths are definitely something special (better or worse is debatable).or, IMO. 

Fair enough.  Spend more hands-on time with the PolyBrute to confirm that it provides a satisfying experience both in terms of sonic goodness and playability.  Then, go back to the Kronos and see if similar sound(s) can be produced.

 

2 hours ago, timwat said:

Others of us may have come up having to initialize a patch and subtractive our way to a sound from scratch...

 

Of course, what helps is that the last synth I bought was an OB6. I can spend several hours programming that thing and not come up with a bad sound.

Brotha Tim, I'd be curious to know how many of those OB6 sounds ended up being slight variations of the same thing.  Especially for someone like yourself who is a musician first and a sound designer...maybe third.😁

 

For the most part, the goals of a synthesist tend to be different from those of a musician who uses a synth(s) in order to gig.   Surely, there is some overlap.

 

Synth sounds that are musical usually already exist as presets.  More than a few modulation routings on synth results in sound(s) for jingles/commercials/TV/Film.

 

That's why synths show up in the repair shop or classifieds with 80% of the factory presets still intact.  Those units belonged to musicians to whom the synth programming novelty wore off fairly quickly.🤣😎