Apple Airpod Pros as active & "intelligent" earplugs

[aronnelson]

If this was only cheaper:

https://asiaudio.com/products/complete-3dme-btg2-system-in-ear-monitor-system

[Reezekeys]

6 hours ago, aronnelson said:

When the band started playing, it's so smart that it started notching out my guitar signal. It worked so well that my guitar basically started disappearing.

 

IIRC you have the iOS 17 beta - and presumably updated the firmware of the Airpods as well. What you're describing doesn't jibe with my experience using adaptive transparency - but I am on the current iOS (16.5, haven't done the ".1" yet!). I have not heard any particular instrument "disappear" when turning adaptive transparency on. Perhaps Apple changed the function itself besides the name (which is "reduce loud sounds" in iOS 17, I believe). The adaptive transparency I hear is just a limiter that affects everything - when I engage it, the overall level goes down with louder sounds. It's possible Apple's DSP is affecting different frequency ranges differently, but I'm not able to hear it. That would be pretty crazy if it turns out the DSP zeros in on the frequencies that are crossing the 85db threshold and applies limiting to only those.

Please forgive my asking but could you be confusing this with the new "Adaptive Audio" setting (which appear to be simply labeled "Adaptive" on the screenshot you posted here)? I ask only because having the buds set there could explain what you heard - since it automatically toggles between transparency and noise cancellation. Reading your description of your guitar "disappearing" seems more in line with what one might hear with ANC enabled, or switching on & off as the new setting makes possible.

[MathOfInsects]

It happens for me too, and I'm not using IOS17b. Crystal clear individually, and then my keys are ducked out the most while the whole band plays. It's not really because of proximity but relative loudness as a result of that proximity. So essentially we're being sunk back into the mix, and ironically, the louder you turn up the stage volume to adjust for it, the more you're limited into the soup. It's only when the whole band is playing, which is what makes me think this off-label use has many potential improvements as it becomes a mainstream use.

Personally, I'd buy those 3DME's at that price. It's our ears. In the cost-vs-value equation, that's a bargain. I'll keep them on my radar. 

[Reezekeys]

7 hours ago, MathOfInsects said:

It happens for me too, and I'm not using IOS17b. Crystal clear individually, and then my keys are ducked out the most while the whole band plays.

 

I'm gonna check this out on my next opportunity. At a past gig I had my iPhone with the Airpods settings screen open as I played, and switched between plain transparency and adaptive. I heard the limiter kick in but never got the impression that my keys, or any particular instrument, got "ducked out." I'll listen closer next time.

[bjosko]

A funny thing happened last week when I was trying out my pods for the second time. 
I had made corrections in it for my hearing loss, and suddenly, when I put them in, I could hear voices from far away and thought whoa, I can hear the neighbors speaking to each other.

 I was wrong, it was my band members that discussing the next number. My AirPods was in noise reduction mode 😛

 

Other than that, I have had good experiences with them so far, and can separate the instruments better. However, someone wrote earlier in this thread that you could set them up from a borrowed iPhone, and then use them as a standalone unit.

That is not my experience, I have an iPhone, but often when I turn on my AirPods, they are in noise reduction mode, even if I left them last time in transparency mode.

[aronnelson]

>Please forgive my asking but could you be confusing this with the new "Adaptive Audio" setting (which appear to be simply labeled "Adaptive" on the screenshot you posted here)? 

 

Yes absolutely. I tried every mode and even turned UP the volume slider in your custom transparency window.  It is definitely targeting frequencies, I think it's just a dynamic EQ honestly with limiting going on. 

 

I can hear it plain as day. Without the band - clear sound. As soon as the band starts, the guitar just disappears into the mix - and the louder you play, the more it seems to fade out. 

 

BTW everyone, send a feedback to apple. I did. 

Reference FEEDBACK: FB12693007

 

I asked for a passthrough with volume control - no dynamic EQ and limiter only. I asked if the volume control could have a range to near zero.

[Ibarch]

21 hours ago, aronnelson said:

Ibarch,

 

Does the Sony work for rehearsals/playing?

That mix slider looks useful!

I've not used them when playing, as I have my IEMs. 

 

I have used my Samsung Galaxy Buds 2 in a couple of practices and they work OK. Sound quality not quite as good as the Sonys but half the price. And they don't fade out the keys. I find these much more comfortable and the case is smaller too. I can compromise a little on sound quality. 

 

Will try and remember to take the Sonys to next band practice. I'm not going to make any predictions till tested. I know they work really well in every day use and mixing ambient noise and noise cancelling is really useful for hearing conversations on trains for example. 

 

 

[MathOfInsects]

On 7/21/2023 at 6:04 AM, Reezekeys said:

 

I'm gonna check this out on my next opportunity. At a past gig I had my iPhone with the Airpods settings screen open as I played, and switched between plain transparency and adaptive. I heard the limiter kick in but never got the impression that my keys, or any particular instrument, got "ducked out." I'll listen closer next time.

I haven't used the off-the-rack Transparency yet in a loud situation. Is it your sense that it would be louder or softer than the -8dB cut of the earbuds themselves?

[Reezekeys]

3 hours ago, MathOfInsects said:

I haven't used the off-the-rack Transparency yet in a loud situation. Is it your sense that it would be louder or softer than the -8dB cut of the earbuds themselves?

 

By "off-the-rack" you mean the "regular" transparency mode, not adaptive transparency? I would imagine it being louder since the limiter is not engaged then - so you'll be feeding non-limited outside sound via the microphones through the drivers. That's got to result in more sound since you're essentially adding to whatever gets through the -8db cut of the earbuds by themselves - or maybe I'm misunderstanding something? Even with adaptive transparency on, you're still adding to whatever leaks through the eartips seal.

[jarrell]

On 7/20/2023 at 3:09 PM, aronnelson said:

If this was only cheaper:

https://asiaudio.com/products/complete-3dme-btg2-system-in-ear-monitor-system

Those look pretty cool, yes a little pricey... One thing I wonder is, is the monitor input mono or stereo? Their documentation doesn't say, just that there is one 1/4 TRS input. That could be unbalanced stereo, or balanced mono. Also, I'm wondering, aren't there other in ear monitors with ambient mics built in in this price range? I'm guessing this is a mid level function - that is, cheaper ones don't have ambient mics, and expensive pro ones assume a pro tour level setup (as opposed to individual musicians like a lot of us), where there is a dedicated individually tailored quality monitor mix coming from FOH as so do not need ambient sound.

[MathOfInsects]

1 hour ago, Reezekeys said:

 

By "off-the-rack" you mean the "regular" transparency mode, not adaptive transparency? I would imagine it being louder since the limiter is not engaged then - so you'll be feeding non-limited outside sound via the microphones through the drivers. That's got to result in more sound since you're essentially adding to whatever gets through the -8db cut of the earbuds by themselves - or maybe I'm misunderstanding something? Even with adaptive transparency on, you're still adding to whatever leaks through the eartips seal.

Yes, "Transparency" mode without "Adaptive Transparency" enabled.

According to that original Wirecutter experiment, Airpods cut -8dB as passive earplugs--just from wearing them--and -10dB with AT enabled. I agree that's counter-intuitive, since you would think that anything coming in through the earbuds would still be coming in. But it seems to be so. -2dB is a decent slice.

So I was curious what your experience of Transparency Mode was, without the "Adaptive" in place. It feels intuitive that it would be louder than nothing at all, but...so does it seem that way with AT. 

I'll experiment tonight.

[dbk]

7 hours ago, jarrell said:

Those look pretty cool, yes a little pricey... One thing I wonder is, is the monitor input mono or stereo? Their documentation doesn't say, just that there is one 1/4 TRS input. That could be unbalanced stereo, or balanced mono.

The ASI 3DME input is stereo via a 3.5mm TRS input.

[Reezekeys]

14 hours ago, MathOfInsects said:

According to that original Wirecutter experiment, Airpods cut -8dB as passive earplugs--just from wearing them--and -10dB with AT enabled. I agree that's counter-intuitive, since you would think that anything coming in through the earbuds would still be coming in.

 

I agree, and I'm at a loss to explain the figures in that NYT article. Both "regular" and adaptive transparency involve adding to the ambient sound the buds aren't blocking passively.

 

14 hours ago, MathOfInsects said:

So I was curious what your experience of Transparency Mode was, without the "Adaptive" in place.

 

I only use the "non" adaptive transparency mode in non-musical scenarios, when I'm out & about and want to hear things a little more clearly, i.e. a quasi-hearing aid; the opposite of what I'm looking for when I'm on a gig or listening to a loud band. I crank up the "Amplification" slider and enable "conversation boost." When on a gig using adaptive transparency, I keep Amplification at minimum - enough to let in some highs that typical foam earplugs block. Actually I wish that setting would let me turn the gain down a little more.

[stoken6]

1 hour ago, Reezekeys said:

I agree, and I'm at a loss to explain the figures in that NYT article. Both "regular" and adaptive transparency involve adding to the ambient sound the buds aren't blocking passively.

This is the thing that confuses me with this whole thread. I can only resolve my confusion with the suggestion that a phase-inverted signal can be "added" to ambient sound to reduce total SPL - that's the principle of active noise cancellation. That's the only way to achieve 

 

15 hours ago, MathOfInsects said:

-10dB with AT enabled

Cheers, Mike.

[Reezekeys]

True but ANC and transparency are two separate modes in the Airpod Pros. I have not heard or read anywhere that there's any amount of ANC happening in transparency mode. I wish there were!! A true blend of those two modes would be the killer app for a lot of musicians imo. The new "adaptive audio" in iOS 17 is not that, as I understand - it just switches between the two modes automatically, based on what it "hears."

[Ibarch]

As stated previously, this killer app has been available for years in Sony earbuds and others. 

 

I really don't understand this mindset where if it isn't made by Apple it doesn't exist. 

[MathOfInsects]

33 minutes ago, Ibarch said:

As stated previously, this killer app has been available for years in Sony earbuds and others. 

 

I really don't understand this mindset where if it isn't made by Apple it doesn't exist. 

I think it is specifically the limiter that attracts. 
 

I would be curious to hear how you feel the Sonys do. 

[Ibarch]

We've covered this already. The Sonys have active noise cancellation plus 20 different levels of ambient sound that can be blended. See the earlier screenshot. I assume that covers what you mean by limiting. I'm not aware of any earbuds that actually have a limiter, that seems reserved for some personal headphone amplifiers. 

 

I've never used them when playing as I have IEMs. In simple testing at home, they cut a lot of outside noise out. The keys comes through nicely when blending in ambient sound. I think they would do a pretty good job. 

 

In terms of quality, most reviews put them above the Airpod Pros for both audio and noise cancelling. 

[Reezekeys]

As I mentioned in my first post, I got my Airpod Pros specifically for noise cancelling on airplane trips. I had seen the Apple presentation where they showed off adaptive transparency but never thought of that feature being useful in my music-making (the presentation showed a guy working a jackhammer, iirc). I knew that Bose, Sony, and maybe others had noise cancelling as good or better than Apple's, but being pretty firmly in their ecosystem with multiple Apple devices, I knew it would be much more convenient to have the Airpod Pros. Then I saw Amazon had them for $50 less than Apple so I went for it.

 

Now that I've seen what they do (and don't do!), and how the technology in general can be used to help save my hearing, for sure those Sonys are intruiguing to me. I wish I could audition them. I think they'd have to be significantly better to have me give up the Apple features I have - mostly the custom EQ curve via audiograms, and the way they automatically connect to any and all my Apple devices - laptop(s), iPads & iPhones. Also, the volume control on the stem, Siri, etc. Maybe the Sony buds do all that stuff too. I'll investigate!

[MathOfInsects]

1 hour ago, Ibarch said:

We've covered this already. The Sonys have active noise cancellation plus 20 different levels of ambient sound that can be blended. See the earlier screenshot. I assume that covers what you mean by limiting. I'm not aware of any earbuds that actually have a limiter, that seems reserved for some personal headphone amplifiers. 

 

I've never used them when playing as I have IEMs. In simple testing at home, they cut a lot of outside noise out. The keys comes through nicely when blending in ambient sound. I think they would do a pretty good job. 

 

In terms of quality, most reviews put them above the Airpod Pros for both audio and noise cancelling. 

I am not an Apple fanboy. I am willing to give ASI 800 of my American dollars if they can do this job in the way I want it done.

 

The reason Airpods are discussed around this is that they have a built-in limiter, which (theoretically) sets them apart from the other pass-through options, ANC or otherwise. So you can crank them nice and loud, but feel some confidence that they are not frying your ears frog-in-boiling-water style.  Their phone mic also has one, by the way, and I love how the vox I record into it sound as a result.

 

I don’t think they are up to the task yet for a full, loud-band environment, though they are much better than the dedicated earplug options. I like this as a solution and have no loyalty to brand. I have never owned Airpods or any Apple-branded headphone options until this month, for this purpose. If Sony’s do it better, with the same limiter (which you’re saying they don’t have), I’m all about them.
 

I think you might be carrying just a little anti-Apple baggage onto this plane…😎

[jarrell]

On 7/10/2023 at 7:21 AM, Ibarch said:

My Sony WF-1000XM3 headphones

I just realized you are talking about headphones, not ear buds, with the Sony's you have. Do you know if Sony has the same features in an ear bud? I do have a friend who is both interested in something for gigging, who is also not in the Apple ecosystem. Yes, I should just google some... 

[Reezekeys]

Sony's buds with these DSP abilities appear to be the WF1000XM series. I see two models - XM3 & XM4.

 

Trying to find out about those Sonys is pretty frustrating. The "manuals" are those foldouts in multiple languages with font sizes appropriate for those with electron microscopes. More to the point, there's zero mention of the DSP functions. Then there's the web pages with descriptions of the app Sony uses to set & control things. I reached my limit in frustration trying to make heads or tails of this. It looks like you can adjust the amount of "ambient sound", and you can turn ANC on & off but I could not find a mention of any way to "blend" these functions. Maybe someone can point me to where I missed it:

 

https://helpguide.sony.net/mdr/hpc/v1/en/contents/TP0001548866.html

 

(There does seem to be a slider that blends noise cancellation with "focus on voice", though it's extremely hard to see since the graphic on the web page is at a super-low resolution - who does these web pages?).

 

Here's the "manual": https://www.sony.com/electronics/support/res/manuals/5027/f5e2f3b9ee17da42a3d0f4031b7b7dbf/50279821M.pdf

[Ibarch]

1 hour ago, jarrell said:

I just realized you are talking about headphones, not ear buds, with the Sony's you have. Do you know if Sony has the same features in an ear bud? I do have a friend who is both interested in something for gigging, who is also not in the Apple ecosystem. Yes, I should just google some... 

Mine are the ear buds. I mix the terms up sometimes. Sorry! These are features in the ear buds. 

[Ibarch]

31 minutes ago, Reezekeys said:

Sony's buds with these DSP abilities appear to be the WF1000XM series. I see two models - XM3 & XM4.

 

Trying to find out about those Sonys is pretty frustrating. The "manuals" are those foldouts in multiple languages with font sizes appropriate for those with electron microscopes. More to the point, there's zero mention of the DSP functions. Then there's the web pages with descriptions of the app Sony uses to set & control things. I reached my limit in frustration trying to make heads or tails of this. It looks like you can adjust the amount of "ambient sound", and you can turn ANC on & off but I could not find a mention of any way to "blend" these functions. Maybe someone can point me to where I missed it:

 

https://helpguide.sony.net/mdr/hpc/v1/en/contents/TP0001548866.html

 

(There does seem to be a slider that blends noise cancellation with "focus on voice", though it's extremely hard to see since the graphic on the web page is at a super-low resolution - who does these web pages?).

 

Here's the "manual": https://www.sony.com/electronics/support/res/manuals/5027/f5e2f3b9ee17da42a3d0f4031b7b7dbf/50279821M.pdf

 

The current model is the WF-1000XM4. I have the previous version, the WF-1000XM3 which are about 3 years old now. 

 

Sony include active notice cancelling in with what they call Ambient Sound Control.  This is the on or off control shown above the slider. 

 

When ambient sound control is on, the slider becomes active. It has these  options, from left to right:

Noise cancelling  (left) 

Wind noise reduction

Ambient sound 1

Ambient sound 2 

... 

Ambient sound 19

Ambient sound 20 (right) 

 

Noise cancelling is ON for all these settings. It isn't switched off when any of  ambient sound levels are selected. The ambient sound is blended into the base noise cancelled sound. Noise cancelling is only turned off when the Ambient Sound Control is turned off, which turns off the Ambient sound level too. 

 

The voice pass though check box activates some kind of processing to make speech come through more clearly alongside the ambient sound. 

 

I don't believe they have a limiter function, I've never seen that. 

 

None of this is Apple bashing. I was simply drawing attention to the facts that Sony earbuds do blend noise cancelling and active sound, in response to posts where people say they really wished this feature was available. Well folks, it is and has been for the 3 years or so these Sonys have been out. 

 

Until you started this topic it have never occurred to me to use them whilst playing. But I have used them and my other earbuds when attending  gigs for a while now to protect my hearing. Limiter or not, they make a big difference. I don't wake up the next day with ears ringing  after loud gigs. 

 

 

[MathOfInsects]

My cursory googling turns up a host of sites that say not to use these Sony's (or any ANC) as hearing protection, but the posts I'm seeing mostly predate the AT on the AirPod Pro's, which is usually discussed in the context of that limiter. 

I did a few different searches in different ways, and I can't find anyone suggesting the Sony's are sufficient as ear protection. Maybe the over-ears might be better for that...?

To be fair, the Wirecutter article also concludes that the Airpods are insufficient at certain volumes, but acknowledges the limiter. 

I'm not sure where that leaves it. 


 

[Ibarch]

Would these articles be referring to the use of ear buds/headphones in place of proper ear defenders? They are right in so much as saying none have been certified for ear protection.

 

That doesn't mean that earbuds cannot offer some levels of sound reduction which will offer some level of protection. My personal experience is that I find mine helpful. I would never attend a gig wearing a pair of industrial ear defenders. So some unquantified reduction in sound is better than nothing. 

[Reezekeys]

My thought is that if you can actually blend ANC with ambient sound - and have good control of that - then you may not need limiting. I've switched to ANC with my Airpods Pro while on a gig, and it reduced the sound in my ears way too much - it was difficult to play because everything sounded dull and far away; that's a testament to how good Apple's ANC is. To have that as a start point, then reduce the intensity of the ANC while blending in enough ambient sound to have a comfortable listening experience would be ideal. I can see that as a workable alternative to limiting if it's done right – though obviously the idea of a limiter in the chain is also a good thing when it comes to hearing protection; that's why most good in-ears systems have them.

 

There's one issue that may derail this method of ear protection though - at least one issue I was made aware of on the Airpod Pros. We know that ANC works by outputting audio that's 180 degrees out of phase with the audio present in your ears. The problem is that when the outside audio gets very loud, the headphone or buds' drivers have to pump out an equally loud out-of-phase audio stream. I played a show opening for the old funk band Cameo (yes they're still around!). During their set I went out into the audience and turned on ANC on my Airpod Pros, and while the overall volume in my ears was decreased by a huge margin, every kick drum hit through the subwoofers caused a distinct clipping sound. Granted, these subs were extremely loud, and very likely not what any earbud or earphone with ANC is designed to compensate for – but this is a potential downside to using ANC to reduce the spl that reaches our eardrums. When I switched back to transparency mode the clipping went away although of course the volume in my ears increased as well. I wonder if Sony's method when blending ANC and transparency is to simply add the transparency "feed" into the ANC's nonchanging output stream, or does it actually vary the amount of ANC as well?

 

BTW - my very recent googling on all this has turned up a bit of news - Sony is expected to release the WF-1000XM5 tomorrow (if you believe the rumor sites, that is).

[stoken6]

20 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

I wonder if Sony's method when blending ANC and transparency is to simply add the transparency "feed" into the ANC's nonchanging output stream, or does it actually vary the amount of ANC as well?

It's the same thing isn't it? If you add a 100% ANC (out-of-phase) and 10% transparency (in-phase) you get 90% ANC. I presume that Sony are simply varying the relative amplitude of "ANC" and "transparency" in their implementation of "Ambient Sound" (1-20). 

 

Now what would be cool is to combine this "dial in the quantity of ambient sound you like" feature with a limiter function: something that dynamically monitors external sound and momentarily ramps up the ANC to compensate for the excessive ambient SPL. Yes this would probably incur the "clipping" artefact that you heard at the Cameo gig, but if that saves your hearing it's probably worth it.

 

I don't know if Apple are the company to deliver this holy grail: I'm yet to be convinced that they get the musician/audiophile market (this would be useful for gig-going audience members as well). Sony should be able to deliver this. Sennheiser definitely understand this market sector (their modern true-wireless buds sound amazing) but I don't know if they have the tech know-how to deliver the kind of "adaptive transparency" processing that Apple have achieved.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Reezekeys]

21 minutes ago, stoken6 said:

20 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

I wonder if Sony's method when blending ANC and transparency is to simply add the transparency "feed" into the ANC's nonchanging output stream, or does it actually vary the amount of ANC as well?

It's the same thing isn't it? If you add a 100% ANC (out-of-phase) and 10% transparency (in-phase) you get 90% ANC. I presume that Sony are simply varying the relative amplitude of "ANC" and "transparency" in their implementation of "Ambient Sound" (1-20).

 

If you vary the amplitude of the out-of-phase component, the amount of cancellation will vary. That's what I had in mind. I'm not sure that's the same as adding the transparency feed into the full-on ANC.

 

Lowering the volume of the out-of-phase signal may have helped in my example - the drivers wouldn't have to work so hard. Of course it could have been the microphones in the earbuds overloading, in which case nothing would have helped.

[Ibarch]

Is there a need for the limiter? This is essential in normal IEM use, as there is the risk of a huge input if someone drops the mic for example. Limiters are not usually expected to be called upon to stop the user turning the volume up too high. 

 

If working off ambient sound, the potential for a huge sound overload is much reduced. Dropping a mic doesn't send the same peak through a PA as it does to a poor soul wearing IEMs at that moment.

 

Therefore is the reason a limiter is being added to help with having the volume up too loud, as a general safety feature? As far as I am aware, no buds have done this before now. They have relied on the user not turning the volume up full whack. If the Airpods Pro transparency turns out not to be suitable for use in stage, would the lack of limiter really be a showstopper to trying other buds?