Need help: audio setup for next gig (in two days!)

[Jose EB5AGV]

Hi all,

 

I will have my 4th gig with my band on Saturday 13th May 2023 (just lest than 2 days away!). It is different to the previous three, sound-wise, because this time it is a relatively small venue (for about 60-80 people I guess) and it is not 100% clear what we are going to find, sound wise. There are some small speakers on a couple corners in the ceiling and a couple larger which can be moved around, and also some fixed bass speakers. I have not had the chance to look at it, I just know what one of the band members have been told and what I can see from some pictures.

 

So the idea is to use a guitar amplifier and a bass amplifier, then the vocals would go through the venue speakers (and also, as a monitor for the singer, we would take a 500W powered speaker). Drums and sax would have no amplification (the venue is small enough). But then, there is a missing thing... myself!. The other band members are sure that I can use the venue audio system, as we will carry our mixer console, so vocals and keyboard would go through it and to the PA speakers there.

 

I insist that is not a good idea due to all the unknowns. Because I would carry, as a monitor, my small Behringer B205D, so I am covered for that... But I am afraid the mix won't be easy to do and would be difficult for me to know if it is going through well. My approach is to use my own keyboard amplifier (I only have available a Behringer K1800FX, but should be more than enough for that place), so it would be a similar audio source as the bass and the guitar, all coming from our stage setup.

 

I hope you understand the situation... Am I so mad, as the people in my band thinks, to be concerned by the unknowns and prefer to have a B plan (my own amp) in case the venue audio system does not work as they think it will?

 

Here you have a picture of the area the band will need to fit (which, BTW, seems cramped for six people!). You can see on the ceiling a couple small speakers, then the 4 black circles, which shoud be the so-called bass speakers. We would sit with our backs close to those speakers, I guess the drummer on the left, myself on the right and then the other 4 people should squeeze someway between those speakers and the prominent columns:

 

 

Here you can see a three people (not six!) group playing on the same spot:

 

 

Please, let me know what would you do (no, you can't say not to play on that cramped venue 😅 )

 

Thanks!

 

Jose

[timwat]

Jose, 

 

I can't seen the uploaded images, but even from your text description, I would suggest:

 

1) Yes, bring your own amplification. Try to set at a level that folks at the back of the room can hear you. This is an imperfect science, but you will at least have your playing in the room.

 

2) It is possible that the house system will be inadequate even for vocals. But that is not your problem; it should be considered, however, by your bandleader.

 

3) The trick is you will be initially uncomfortable playing at such a loud volume...it's going to sound loud to you as the amp will probably be right behind you. But it needs to be heard at the back of the room.

 

4) typically, using an amp for keys to the audience means not using an additional monitor for yourself. 

 

5) As a lot of things in life, hope for the best and plan for the worst. If the house PA surprises you, and ends up sufficient for everything, that will be awesome. And I have seldom found a situation as you've briefly described where it actually ended up that way. One notorious example (for those of us familiar with this venue) is the Top of the Mark in San Francisco in the historic Mark Hopkins Hotel. Yes, there's a house PA. It's sufficient for vocals...and nothing else.

[mate stubb]

ALWAYS have your own amplification in unknown situations like this.

[Jose EB5AGV]

4 minutes ago, timwat said:

4) typically, using an amp for keys to the audience means not using an additional monitor for yourself.

 

Just to clarify, yes, my idea is to use one or the other Behringer amps, not both.

 

Thanks for the insights!. I am glad to hear I am not paranoid as they think 😅

 

Jose

[Stokely]

Ouch, that looks like reverb city unless I'm getting the wrong idea from those pics.  My initial reaction would be "this is a low-volume gig, plan accordingly."

I'd always, always have a backup plan.  Even when I know exactly what a sound company is providing, I like to make sure I'm covered in case their stuff doesn't work out.
 

I also like to keep things as simple as possible (whatever that might mean) if there are a lot of unknowns. 

[Docbop]

I would say THINK SMALL and bring small amps,  remind drummer constantly to keep it down, treat this like an acoustic gig let the so sound of sax with be the determining factor.  Remind the drummer of that, if he's a Jazz drummer should like being able to play lighter and let the room work for him.    

 

That appear to be a DJ setup in back that might be there "PA" system which mean singer will probably have trouble hearing themself unless volume is down.    Remind drummer again this is a ringy room play light.  

 

It's a just another gig, you do it, collect the check, go to a diner and bitch about everything, laugh and go home. 

[Jose EB5AGV]

Thanks for all your comments. What is curious is that, being myself by far the less experienced musician of the band, I am the only one who is worried about sound on that place 🤔

 

Well, the drummer is not exactly a low volume player. I will try to have a talk today with him. But he was one of the harder opposers to my idea of carrying my own amp so...

 

I will let you know how things end.

 

BTW, now that you mention it, I recall first time we talked about that gig, it was defined as acoustic... And, in my ignorance, I asked what that exactly meant, and the difference was mainly drumming and guitar related. But someway that was lately changed to a regular gig. Why?. No clue.

 

I will try to get some answers today 👍🏻

 

Thanks!

 

Jose

[Al Quinn]

I would definitely bring my own amplification. I’ve made the mistake of not doing this once or twice and it sucked!
 

Position your amp up to your side so that it’s away from all band members and not pointed at any of them. You want to avoid the situation where your sound makes it difficult for them to hear themselves because that would only cause them to turn up, which would cause you to turn up, etc.

[CowboyNQ]

I would definitely bring my own speaker/amp as insurance.

 

Once you get there you’ll have a better idea of what will work best for you and the band, but at least you’ll have options.

 

it won’t be the easiest thing to mix if you’re running through your own amp, but all you can do is give it your best effort.

[Stokely]

If that is indeed a low-volume gig--and that was an assumption based on one pic so maybe wrong--a good thing to do is to seek out the person responsible for the party/gig (if they are there) before the show and ask them about expectations for volume.  Much easier to start out low than to try to turn down once you start.  Some of these hiring people don't have a realistic idea of just how loud a band tends to be....

For one gig in particular, our drummer has to use lighter sticks (hot rods) or it would be too loud.  That's another option.  The rest of us can turn up or down, it starts with the drummer (unless they have an e-kit).

[Jose EB5AGV]

Yes, that is the problem, the drummer (who is one of the skeptics on my approach to bring my own amplification) will play as loud as he does on rehearsals... Which means the small venue will be overflowing sound all around. This is what kills me, he says I am too worried about the overall mix, but IMO the main problem to be able to play an enjoyable gig is his excessive volume.

 

Tomorrow, for sure, will be an interesting day...

 

I take note of the mediation, let's say, of the responible of the gig, as they want probably something which does not make his customers deaf!

 

I am a bit down today, as you may guess... Wish me luck 🙏🏻

 

Jose

[Stokely]

A bigger worry than having a good mix or even being able to hear yourself is pissing off the hiring person by playing too loud.  The drummer needs to realize this.  Not saying it will even be the case but it sounds like there's a chance that it will be a low-volume gig and a professional (or amateur trying to be professional as I am!) needs to play accordingly.

I've been known to be a bit annoying to our bandlead (the singer) by wanting to know details of the gig as far as stage, monitors etc.  If she hasn't done so, I try to contact the sound companies if we are using one to be prepared.  There's really no reason to have uncertainty where some members are saying bring amplification and others are not--that is something that should be able to be found out.  I've found that venues/sound companies appreciate me asking as that's less uncertainty for them too.  Some will ask for a stage plot detailing our instruments and needs.

Don't be down, just keep your own rig as simple as you can and be ready to have fun    One rule I have for myself is not to try anything new at important gigs or at gigs where there are other unknowns (like a sound company).  At some low-pressure gig at a familiar venue with our own PA, that's the time to experiment.

[Jose EB5AGV]

Just now, Stokely said:

A bigger worry than having a good mix or even being able to hear yourself is pissing off the hiring person by playing too loud.  The drummer needs to realize this.  Not saying it will even be the case but it sounds like there's a chance that it will be a low-volume gig and a professional (or amateur trying to be professional as I am!) needs to play accordingly.

 

Yes, I am afraid of that. But, for one side, it would be good so he realises it is not the way to do things.

 

Thanks for your support, I feel better knowing that my POV seems reasonable.

 

Jose

 

 

[Stokely]

Yep, and I don't want to come across as looking for problems where there may be none--it's the nature of my day job so it rubs off   Who am I kidding I've always been that way.   Hope for the best, plan for the worst, but keep positive if possible (that's the part I had to work on.)  You never know where one gig can lead to another so you want to make a good impression.   In addition to sound questions, I like to find out things like what to wear, will we need lights etc.

Unfortunately drummers and guitarists seem to be especially prone to the "I'm a rocker, I don't turn down" syndrome.  Hopefully yours will avoid catching the sickness!

[harmonizer]

I would not trust something having a 5.25" speaker (your Behringer B205D) to serve as my keyboard monitor for me and the rest of the band to hear the keyboard playing at a gig. If there are times during the intro or middle of a song where your keys playing is the main instrument setting the band's tempo, how will the rest of the band lock into that, including the drummer?

[Jose EB5AGV]

1 hour ago, harmonizer said:

I would not trust something having a 5.25" speaker (your Behringer B205D) to serve as my keyboard monitor for me and the rest of the band to hear the keyboard playing at a gig. If there are times during the intro or middle of a song where your keys playing is the main instrument setting the band's tempo, how will the rest of the band lock into that, including the drummer?

 

The first idea, which I don't like, was to use the small monitor only for me, and a larger amplified speaker for vocals and keys as a monitor for vocalist and the rest of the band.

 

My idea is to use my amplifier both as monitor for me and the band, and keep keys out of the vocalist monitor.

 

Jose

[stoken6]

Some good advice here.

1. You will be as quiet as your drummer. The quieter you are, the easier it will be for everyone to hear everything.

2. The in-house PA might be enough to carry your singer to the audience. 

3. Your little 5in monitor will be OK for you if it's really close to you. (I have a similar model, and it mounts on my keyboard stand). 

4. You should bring your K1800 amp (even if you don't need it). I would have it set up so you are between it and the band. I don't think it will work as a combined monitor-for-your-singer and keyboard-amp-for-the-band. Does somebody else have a wedge monitor that the singer could use?

 

Arrive early, and try and get as much time for soundcheck as possible. And good luck.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Jose EB5AGV]

3 minutes ago, stoken6 said:

Some good advice here.

1. You will be as quiet as your drummer. The quieter you are, the easier it will be for everyone to hear everything.

2. The in-house PA might be enough to carry your singer to the audience. 

3. Your little 5in monitor will be OK for you if it's really close to you. (I have a similar model, and it mounts on my keyboard stand). 

4. You should bring your K1800 amp (even if you don't need it). I would have it set up so you are between it and the band. I don't think it will work as a combined monitor-for-your-singer and keyboard-amp-for-the-band. Does somebody else have a wedge monitor that the singer could use?

 

Arrive early, and try and get as much time for soundcheck as possible. And good luck.

 

Cheers, Mike.

 

Sorry, it seems I am pretty bad writting in English (or even in Spanish, who knows 😄!)

 

The K1800 is only for me, as monitor an keyboard amp. The singer will have her exclusive 500W monitor, now only for her, as I am not going to use it (there is no need)

 

That way, my approach will be:

 

-Drums: acoustic

-Guitar: exclusive PA

-Bass: exclusive PA

-Sax: acoustic

-Singer: exclusive 500W PA as monitor and venue PA for public

-Keys: exclusive PA (K1800)

 

I would say this is more logical than other band members idea:

 

-Drums: acoustic

-Guitar: exclusive PA

-Bass: exclusive PA

-Sax: acoustic

-Singer: shared 500W PA(*) as monitor and venue PA for public

-Keys: exclusive small monitor (B205D) and shared 500W PA as "extra" monitor(*) and venue PA for public

 

(*) that setup, with an small monitor for me, at ear level, and then the keys going also to the 500W PA, is what we use on rehearsals, so they said "it will be the same as on rehearsals". But there the use is different, as there are no other amps but the bass and guitar ones on our room and that way the rest of the band hears my playing.

 

I hope this clarifies things! 😁

 

Jose

[stoken6]

I would keep an open mind on whether you want to run keys through the venue PA - it might work well. Definitely have your K1800 with you - I suspect somebody in the band won't be able to hear keys from where they are, and the singer won't want more keys in her wedge. I would have it at my side of the stage, acting as a sort of "sidefill"

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Jose EB5AGV]

6 minutes ago, stoken6 said:

I would keep an open mind on whether you want to run keys through the venue PA - it might work well. Definitely have your K1800 with you - I suspect somebody in the band won't be able to hear keys from where they are, and the singer won't want more keys in her wedge. I would have it at my side of the stage, acting as a sort of "sidefill"

 

Cheers, Mike.

 

Yes, I need to try different things but, of course, will have my amp there.

 

In 24h I will know for sure how it went!. Will report back 👍🏻

 

Jose

[Bill H.]

23 hours ago, Docbop said:

 

 

That appear to be a DJ setup in back that might be there "PA" system which mean singer will probably have trouble hearing themself unless volume is down.    Remind drummer again this is a ringy room play light.  

 

It's a just another gig, you do it, collect the check, go to a diner and bitch about everything, laugh and go home. 

Yeah it looks like a DJ booth set up in an upscale wine cellar or something. What the hell kind of gig is this? I'm really interested in your gig report Jose. If this is just your fourth gig, you don't want to rewrite the playbook. Just set up like you usually do when you rehearse, position your amp in such a way that it doesn't encourage others to turn up, and hopefully enjoy yourself. 

[Jose EB5AGV]

9 hours ago, Bill H. said:

Yeah it looks like a DJ booth set up in an upscale wine cellar or something. What the hell kind of gig is this? I'm really interested in your gig report Jose. If this is just your fourth gig, you don't want to rewrite the playbook. Just set up like you usually do when you rehearse, position your amp in such a way that it doesn't encourage others to turn up, and hopefully enjoy yourself. 

 

I have found a video which shows exactly the area we have to setup... not too much for 6 people, but we will make it work! 😄

 

Hope you can access it (from second 10 or so the presenter goes to that area):

 

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=571846987505553

 

Thank you all!

 

Jose