B3 plugins ... what is the current state?

[Nowarezman]

I don't know how I can accurately judge a VST B-3 against the real thing without having a real B-3 around to play for a few years.  I've been mad for the B-3 since the 60s, ever since I had Booker T tunes on 45s, but I've only had the chance to play an actual B-3 maybe a dozen times - short times - in my long lifetime  But I can say this - a real Leslie, once it gets swirling up and humming, there's nothing like a real one in a real room, no software or recording captures that.  

 

I listen to lots of B-3 players and the B-3s vary considerably in recordings.  I can't tell if it's the recording itself, or variances between Hammond models, or the quirks of individual instruments, or what accounts for the large variances I hear.  

 

So I've always used VSTs since the 90s when I had a Kurzweil K200 with that great (for that era) B-3 program.  The VSTs have gotten a lot better over the years, no question.  Of the current crop, I'd say the top 5 can all do the job one way or another.  But the essential things for me are:

 

1.  the top end has to avoid the all-too-common digital shrillness that I'm sure we've all encountered in some VST or other.  

2.  the leslie has to have enough throb to it to have some soul, but not so much that it feels hyped.

3.  most importantly for me is that I need a good keyboard with something like an authentic feel.  I have a Crumar Mojo which I just love to death.  It comes with the VB3-II which I've found is up to the task 95% of the time.  I've just started using the Mojo to trigger the IKM VST - the IKM is richer in tone, no question, but....time will tell.  

 

I never feel like I really know how to assess an instrument until after I've been married to it for a few years.  So I'm not a good candidate as a new gear reviewer.  But I can go on all day about my old gear

 

nat

 

 

 

[drawback]

I realize this is sacrilege, but I’ve been dreaming of a Mojo Classic driving IOS B3X. Best controller with fallback software, best Vi. Maybe will change my mind if Cherry Audio goes iOS. 

[AnotherScott]

The one thing no VI gives me (which I can get on a real tonewheel Hammond or most clones)is the ability to hit a button/key and have the sound exactly match the current drawbar settings, so that all subsequent manipulations are perfect (no "jump" or "catch" nonsense). The only "fix" for that that I'm aware of is to use a Dexibell with moving faders as your controller, and program drawbar registrations into the Dexibell. I had the opportunity to try that with B3X, and it worked. IIRC, the way it worked was that, when calling up a dexibell organ preset, the drawbars would move, and as they did, they sent MIDI out to B3X, so it was all in sync, but I still had the VI sound.

 

The keyboards that use LEDs would probably work to at least give you that convenient well-placed indication of what the "real" drawbar locations are, with a bit more effort. You'd probably have to program the same registration into the keyboard AND the VI, and change them together. 

 

It would be nice if VIs themselves not only received MIDI CC from a keyboard's drawbars/sliders, but also sent those CCs back to the keyboard when recalling one of their own presets, so that any board with moving faders or LEDs (Yamaha, Kurzweil, Vox, Nord) would have that display in sync whenever you called up a new VI organ sound. I don't think anyone does this. I remember at least looking into VB3, B3X, and Blue3. (Maybe it's something Cherry could add?)

[Baldwin Funster]

8 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

The one thing no VI gives me (which I can get on a real tonewheel Hammond or most clones)is the ability to hit a button/key and have the sound exactly match the current drawbar settings, so that all subsequent manipulations are perfect (no "jump" or "catch" nonsense). The only "fix" for that that I'm aware of is to use a Dexibell with moving faders as your controller, and program drawbar registrations into the Dexibell. I had the opportunity to try that with B3X, and it worked. IIRC, the way it worked was that, when calling up a dexibell organ preset, the drawbars would move, and as they did, they sent MIDI out to B3X, so it was all in sync, but I still had the VI sound.

 

The keyboards that use LEDs would probably work to at least give you that convenient well-placed indication of what the "real" drawbar locations are, with a bit more effort. You'd probably have to program the same registration into the keyboard AND the VI, and change them together. 

 

It would be nice if VIs themselves not only received MIDI CC from a keyboard's drawbars/sliders, but also sent those CCs back to the keyboard when recalling one of their own presets, so that any board with moving faders or LEDs (Yamaha, Kurzweil, Vox, Nord) would have that display in sync whenever you called up a new VI organ sound. I don't think anyone does this. I remember at least looking into VB3, B3X, and Blue3. (Maybe it's something Cherry could add?)

The drawbar jump issue, it could be argued,  is better than what happens on a real B where selecting a preset renders the drawbars dead until the B or B flat keys are depressed.  

[AnotherScott]

13 minutes ago, Baldwin Funster said:

The drawbar jump issue, it could be argued,  is better than what happens on a real B where selecting a preset renders the drawbars dead until the B or B flat keys are depressed.  

Yeah, being able to "tweak" the presets is a clonewheel perk, but I don't like trading off a functionality I always had (on the real thing) to get something else I never used (if only because I couldn't!). Ideally, we could have both... and in fact, on most actual clonewheels we do have both... but in most cases, when you move to a VI, you lose that particular "real B3" functionality, giving the hardware clonewheels that advantage over the VI.

 

I considered using the Dexibell J7 as my organ controller for B3X or whatever (the Dexibells' internal organ sound is improved from its earliest iteration, but is still not in the league with the top clones or VIs), which could conceivably give me the sound I want with the drawbar functionality I want. But for gigging, it would have to be a "third" keyboard, since I do not find its action piano-friendly enough for me to also make it my "bottom" board, nor is it versatile enough to be my "top." I have considered adding a third board for organ, it's why I was drawn to the 8 lb Hammond M-Solo, but the Dexibell's 22 lbs dissuaded me. (Plus its Nord-like action has too much push back for me, so it needs a spring swap, too.)

[Delaware Dave]

24 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

But for gigging, it would have to be a "third" keyboard, since I do not find its action piano-friendly enough for me to also make it my "bottom" board, nor is it versatile enough to be my "top." I have considered adding a third board for organ, it's why I was drawn to the 8 lb Hammond M-Solo, but the Dexibell's 22 lbs dissuaded me. (Plus its Nord-like action has too much push back for me, so it needs a spring swap, too.)

 

M-Audio Code 61. Perfect organ controller, 10 lbs. <$250. Can be powered from a usb port although i bought a power adapter for mine.

[AnotherScott]

3 hours ago, Delaware Dave said:

M-Audio Code 61. Perfect organ controller, 10 lbs. 

 

Yes, a lightweight controller +iPad can make for good sounding, compact/light 3rd board for organ. And while I don't have the Code 61, I do have some lightweight controllers that could serve this purpose, like Roland PCR.

 

But again, if you're using a VI, you lose the ability to instantly get a sound that is in sync with the sliders, so you can manipulate without worrying about "jump" or "catch." The only fix for that is to pick a board that supports that function with its internal organ sound (and use that sound rather than a VI) OR possibly use a board that has moving faders (or maybe LEDs) that could permit that function even with a VI. To me, that's the biggest drawback of VI vs. hardware, in most instances. There's also the variable of high trigger... at least in currently available models, I don't think any soundless controllers send high trigger, so if you want that, or waterfall shape, you'd need to choose a suitable clonewheel even if you only intend to use it as a controller.

 

I'm just thinking that if I'm going to bother bringing a third board in order to get a better organ experience, I'd like it to be a particularly good organ experience. 🙂