Carbon Fiber in Keyboard builds - possibly lighter and stronger than plastic?

[ElmerJFudd]

Kawai points out their use of carbon fiber in their Millennium III Action noting, “Carbon fiber has been called the lightest, strongest material on earth. In Kawai pianos, it allows a lighter design that helps to make our Millennium III Action tremendously fast and effortless to play while sustaining exceptional tone. The rigid character of ABS-Carbon also offers pianists more power with less effort. Its resistance to shrinking and swelling helps to provide these benefits consistently over many years – something conventional wood components are unable to deliver.”

 

I’ve noticed carbon fiber guitars becoming more common and less expensive (there’s one online for under $300 with mic system and digital fx).  On acoustic designs the benefit is it resonates similarly to wood but does not warp due to temp and humidity.  
 

Why haven’t we seen digital keyboard manufacturers using carbon fiber to get better quality action designs down in weight?  Eliminate particle board bases (SV2 for example). Replace sections of lighter plastic builds with stronger carbon fiber where it matters (on end caps for example).  
 

[aronnelson]

I'm not sure but I noticed that even with the same action, a lighter frame seems to make the action feel not as "solid". However with my RD-88, it was sliding all over my stand because of the plastic. I put adhesive rubber strips and it made a huge difference. 

[ElmerJFudd]

10 minutes ago, aronnelson said:

I'm not sure but I noticed that even with the same action, a lighter frame seems to make the action feel not as "solid". However with my RD-88, it was sliding all over my stand because of the plastic. I put adhesive rubber strips and it made a huge difference. 

This is a good point - it does feel right to dig into an instrument and not have it budge, like an acoustic piano or Hammond B3.  However, as you point out, the stand  design and ability to hold onto the instrument makes a big difference.  
 

That said, we often see sacrifices in quality of action on keyboards made due to the desire to keep weight down for portability.  But perhaps with a material like carbon fiber,  it’s possible to avoid sacrificing feel for light weight, since the action choice is the most significant contributor to overall weight.  

[16251]

You'd think Nord must already use a lot of carbon fiber in their boards, considering how much they cost. 

[DeltaJockey]

I'm not sure whether it would solve any problems in keyboards. I have a Kawai Millenium 3 action in my grand, and can see the advantages, given it is replacing timber components. It's not in there to save weight, it's just much less variable to play with changes in humidity, as well as being stronger, but your average synth/keyboard is mostly plastic and metal, not needing to use timber for acoustic character, other than the life, (and expense) would be increased. Perhaps stage pianos like MP11SE may benefit, as it's so heavy with wood, but there seems to be a move toward making stage pianos with more wood veneers anyway. My recent Studiologic Numa Piano X GT has the plastic composite keys mimicking the density of wood, so that it's a kind of lighter weight artificial parallel to using carbon composite I suppose. And in my view it does a stellar job too!

Perhaps if the the trend takes it, they could put carbon fibre veneers on the sides of the keys to appeal to more people.

 

I could see down the track, they could be using carbon fibre in keyboards, then have to add lead weights to stop the instrument from sliding around on the stand😁

 

[DeltaJockey]

6 minutes ago, DeltaJockey said:

It's not in there to save weight,

 

Actually I correct myself there, it does make the action faster and lighter of course. I meant that it isn't for saving a few grams relative to over 300kg.

[ElmerJFudd]

11 minutes ago, DeltaJockey said:

I'm not sure whether it would solve any problems in keyboards. I have a Kawai Millenium 3 action in my grand, and can see the advantages, given it is replacing timber components. It's not in there to save weight, it's just much less variable to play with changes in humidity, as well as being stronger, but your average synth/keyboard is mostly plastic and metal, not needing to use timber for acoustic character, other than the life, (and expense) would be increased. Perhaps stage pianos like MP11SE may benefit, as it's so heavy with wood, but there seems to be a move toward making stage pianos with more wood veneers anyway. My recent Studiologic Numa Piano X GT has the plastic composite keys mimicking the density of wood, so that it's a kind of lighter weight artificial parallel to using carbon composite I suppose. And in my view it does a stellar job too!

Perhaps if the the trend takes it, they could put carbon fibre veneers on the sides of the keys to appeal to more people.

 

I could see down the track, they could be using carbon fibre in keyboards, then have to add lead weights to stop the instrument from sliding around on the stand😁

 

Good points - however, if one could have something that plays like an MP11SE that transports like a PX5S, well now that’s something of interest to me.  Heck, if an instrument with a TP40 could be dragged around at the weight of one with a TP100 that would be a win.  

[CEB]

Carbon fiber is strong.  Makes great performance bike frames but when Carbon fiber frames fail it is catastrophic failure.  You don't repair cracked carbon fiber like you can titanium, aluminum  or cromoly/steel.  Its done.  But I guess we don't have to ride keyboards.

[timwat]

5 minutes ago, CEB said:

But I guess we don't have to ride keyboards.

 

I guess you haven't seen my OnlyFans.

[DeltaJockey]

My cromoly steel touring bike is my fave, such a soft comfortable ride all day long!

 

Eeks! I'd better stop walking on my millenium 3 action, I don't want to have to replace my whole piano action, just because my body weight snapped one jack.🤣

[ElmerJFudd]

44 minutes ago, timwat said:

 

I guess you haven't seen my OnlyFans.

 👀 

[sam6599643]

14 hours ago, ElmerJFudd said:

Kawai points out their use of carbon fiber in their Millennium III Action noting, “Carbon fiber has been called the lightest, strongest material on earth. In Kawai pianos, it allows a lighter design that helps to make our Millennium III Action tremendously fast and effortless to play while sustaining exceptional tone. The rigid character of ABS-Carbon also offers pianists more power with less effort. Its resistance to shrinking and swelling helps to provide these benefits consistently over many years – something conventional wood components are unable to deliver.”

 

I’ve noticed carbon fiber guitars becoming more common and less expensive (there’s one online for under $300 with mic system and digital fx).  On acoustic designs the benefit is it resonates similarly to wood but does not warp due to temp and humidity.  
 

Why haven’t we seen digital keyboard manufacturers using carbon fiber to get better quality action designs down in weight?  Eliminate particle board bases (SV2 for example). Replace sections of lighter plastic builds with stronger carbon fiber where it matters (on end caps for example).  
 

Plastic does the job, is cheap to manufacture reliably, and is recycleable.

 

Carbon fibre is not cheap to manufacture reliably if you have very high demands for resistance to loads in all directions, which is what you’d need in a keyboard if you want to to withstand some degree of being dropped or banged.

 

And is not recycleable. Or not recycleable without huge costs that outweigh the value of any material recovered. So carbon fibre on mass volume products like these s not really a way forward in a circular economy, which is already one of the mandates that manufacturers will be pressed to follow in the EU for example.

 

So I cant see this becoming a big thing. Maybe on some few niche or very high end keyboards. But not at a mass level.

[ElmerJFudd]

1 hour ago, sam6599643 said:

Plastic does the job, is cheap to manufacture reliably, and is recycleable.

 

Carbon fibre is not cheap to manufacture reliably if you have very high demands for resistance to loads in all directions, which is what you’d need in a keyboard if you want to to withstand some degree of being dropped or banged.

 

And is not recycleable. Or not recycleable without huge costs that outweigh the value of any material recovered. So carbon fibre on mass volume products like these s not really a way forward in a circular economy, which is already one of the mandates that manufacturers will be pressed to follow in the EU for example.

 

So I cant see this becoming a big thing. Maybe on some few niche or very high end keyboards. But not at a mass level.

That’s an interesting perspective and prediction.  It hasn’t seemed to stop carbon fiber’s adoption in the Guitar corner of MI manufacturing and areas outside of music.  
 

The we also have graphene which is lighter than plastic and stronger than steel which is about to have its production scaled up for use in batteries and electric vehicles.  

[Irena]

A few years back I remember seeing this piano for sale. Too far for me to drive to try it, but it piqued my interest and I found a few posts from piano rebuilders singing the praises of WNG's composite components' performance and maintainability, 

[ElmerJFudd]

1 hour ago, Irena said:

A few years back I remember seeing this piano for sale. Too far for me to drive to try it, but it piqued my interest and I found a few posts from piano rebuilders singing the praises of WNG's composite components' performance and maintainability, 

I see!  Wessel Nickel and Gross Carbon Fiber Piano Action.  
 

https://wessellnickelandgross.com/our-action-parts/materials/

 

[Lady Gaia]

Kawai has definitely been on the forefront of alternative materials, having used an ABS composite in piano actions for 40 years or more.  The ABS Carbon evolution is just one more step along that path.  Predictably, traditionalists have pushed back – but wood really is problematic and inconsistent so it's almost certainly a losing battle.  In the meantime, though, "wood" is probably still a selling point for many purchasers.

 

Why haven't we seen more carbon fiber and similar high-tech materials?  It's almost certainly more expensive than simple plastic parts which are the go-to for making something lightweight.  Sadly, the market is much more driven by the needs of the low end and a drive to compete on cost above all else.  Really good actions are few and far between.  Thankfully Kawai and Yamaha still see it as a market worth serving.

[mate stubb]

I knocked 10 lb off my organ controller by carving out big chunks of the wood chassis and replacing with corrugated carbon fiber.

[Stokely]

Be careful getting too light    I was really worried about my Modx7 flying off the stand at one recent windy outdoor gig.  Not only that but I had to weigh down the stand feet (I used an x stand, not my usual) because if the keyboard didn't fly, it was going to cause a tipover.

I've found for stands that need some grip that cork works great.   Recently I got some cork bike handle tape for the arms on my Omega Pro, because that Modx was sliding all over the place.

[Mr -G-]

21 hours ago, mate stubb said:

I knocked 10 lb off my organ controller by carving out big chunks of the wood chassis and replacing with corrugated carbon fiber.

The audience requests a photo!

[mate stubb]

Here's a pic of my controller. Unfortunately the carbon fiber pics are in a different thread which I can no longer access since the forum migration.

 

Just imagine a sheet of corrugated cardboard and you'll be pretty close.

 

http://www.hotrodmotm.com/images/hammond/keeper/keeper_dualmaple_09.jpg