Wanted: A Keyboard with integrated “Computer” for loading whatever sounds I want to buy

[Docbop]

1 hour ago, Thethirdapple said:

Think how silly it would be, to only be able to put ford gasoline into your ford vehicle !?!?

 

Kind of like insisting on General Motors making Ford replacement parts.        

 

Maybe the solution isn't making interchangeable hardware Mac, or rest of the world, but to say we need a standard for sound data  that any hardware company can support if they want to.   That's all you really want is interchangeable sound from any company to work on your stuff it yourself keyboard.   

[K K]

44 minutes ago, JazzPiano88 said:

1. Ask Keyboard manufacturers to integrate a toaster, hot plate, and deep fat fryer into the keyboard.

 

Or a coffee machine with lots of additional sample libraries cups. This one also comes with a custom Bourbon/Cognac Dampp Chaser life saver system.

 

[ElmerJFudd]

28 minutes ago, Docbop said:

 

Kind of like insisting on General Motors making Ford replacement parts.        

 

Maybe the solution isn't making interchangeable hardware Mac, or rest of the world, but to say we need a standard for sound data  that any hardware company can support if they want to.   That's all you really want is interchangeable sound from any company to work on your stuff it yourself keyboard.   

But we all know this fails due to competition between developers and piracy.  
 

All developers compete with one another to have the best sounding and playing sample sets, synthesis and modeling engines.  They want control of the features and user experience - a generic sample player format doesn’t allow for an edge over their competitors (more layers, different mapping and triggering, better/different fx, customized routing, etc.).  
 

They try to avoid having their samples in wav, aif audio formats and libraries in formats like sf2 or Akai.  They rather place the audio data and sample format in a package that’s tied to licensing.  Otherwise everyone just shares their work.  People rip off their work anyway but it shouldn’t be easy or it should at least be inconvenient and force the “pirates” to cross a clear line.  

[Reezekeys]

15 minutes ago, Docbop said:

we need a standard for sound data  that any hardware company can support if they want to.

 

"Sound data" is a pretty broad term. A standard that will cover samples, physical modeling, granular, wavetable, FM, etc.?  I don't think it's gonna happen. Why would a hardware company spend the resources to implement this? Despite our whining, Roland, Yamaha, Casio etc. seem to be doing OK with the sounds they include in their boards. For a small company to do it would be a pretty daunting task. We'd get all excited here, then watch what happens when it winds up being in the high four figures so the poor devs can recover some of their costs and pay their mortgages. Look at the new Rhodes - that's only emulating one sound! 🙂 

[B4i]

There are a number of workflow differences that impact putting plugins into a hardware keyboard environment. 

 

For example on a Kronos/Fantom/Montage etc its easy to audition "Organ", "Piano", "String" sounds. The manufacture grouped them. With plugins, there is no common standard for doing this. The nks format goes part way, but only with supported plugins. Trying to navigate on a touchscreen or through buttons is slower/more frustrating than just grabbing a mouse on a big monitor (or laptop screen).

 

There are many others where its either too complicated to move to a hardware only environment or its just so much quicker using a keyboard/mouse and a proper screen.

 

The biggest frustration for me using plugins live has been where to put the laptop (close enough to see, out of reach of someone knocking it over etc). I've gone with a mac mini on my pedal board and using an iPad as a screen. Fits well enough on an 88 key Nord Stage 2ex

[bfields]

11 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

 

"Sound data" is a pretty broad term. A standard that will cover samples, physical modeling, granular, wavetable, FM, etc.?

In practice, what we have are audio plugin standards.  Standards, plural--progress on getting all the interested parties to settle on one seems slow.

 

On the other hand, MIDI did happen somehow.

 

Newer boards are doing more to integrate external software (for example by acting as a USB audio interface), and seems like there's lots of good incremental progress that could be made there.

[Reezekeys]

2 hours ago, bfields said:

In practice, what we have are audio plugin standards.  Standards, plural--progress on getting all the interested parties to settle on one seems slow.

 

Well if we're only talking plugins, VST seems to be the most widely supported standard - I see it on both Mac and Windows PCs anyway. Most major plugin developers release on VST, so for the purposes of this mythical keyboard that loads any and all sounds you can think of (except those from Yamaha, Roland, Casio, and all the other manufacturers that sell their keyboards with their own sounds!), just make a keyboard that loads VSTs. Or maybe a module even. Oh wait...

 

Snarkyness aside (sorry!) I think we here are a special bunch. The majority of Joe & Jane musicians looking for a DP or workstation will base their buying decisions on the features and sounds that are already in the unit - and available with the flick of a power switch right after unboxing it.

[TommyRude]

Has AI come up in this thread?  Maybe future keyboards will use AI as part of their 'brains'.  The keyboardists can type in their sound request, i.e. "please give me a pad that's a combination of Pink Floyd and Metallica" - out will pop a sound.  Then fine tune the sound with more text prompts, i.e. "faster attack, less decay, yada", until you land on the prize.

[stoken6]

3 hours ago, TommyRude said:

Has AI come up in this thread?  Maybe future keyboards will use AI as part of their 'brains'.  The keyboardists can type in their sound request, i.e. "please give me a pad that's a combination of Pink Floyd and Metallica" - out will pop a sound.  Then fine tune the sound with more text prompts, i.e. "faster attack, less decay, yada", until you land on the prize.

 

This post prompted the realisation that many music reviews sound like they could be AI prompts:

- "A post-modern grunge take on flower-power folk-pop performed by Kraftwerk"

- "2000s pop-punk meets Tori Amos at a warehouse rave"

- "Brian May, Ringo and Flea pitch atmospheric trance to Bruno Mars"

 

Cheers, Mike.

[mauriziodececco]

What I would like: define an open plafform based on off the shelf technology for a user customisable keyboard.

For non technical people: a PC is an open platform, because people now how to add hardware software to it. It is not necessarily open like open source.

 

Take a Rasperry Pi, the latest 4 core, 8Gbyte of ram. Add SSD USB storage, USB audio interface, optional keyboard, and an OS (Linux or other real time OS) with a VST or June or something layer. Define a standard way to interface to hardware interfaces, like knobs, buttons, display, leds.

Invent the less technology possible.

Publish royalty free the platform specification and reference design. Lobby to convince plugin developers to port to the platform, start with the small one that may have an immediate advantage.

 

Sell a few model based on the platform, and make industrial alliance with other hardware  builders.

 

OK, if anybody here have a few spare million dollars I am willing to do it :).

 

Maurizio

 

[ElmerJFudd]

41 minutes ago, mauriziodececco said:

What I would like: define an open plafform based on off the shelf technology for a user customisable keyboard.

For non technical people: a PC is an open platform, because people now how to add hardware software to it. It is not necessarily open like open source.

 

Take a Rasperry Pi, the latest 4 core, 8Gbyte of ram. Add SSD USB storage, USB audio interface, optional keyboard, and an OS (Linux or other real time OS) with a VST or June or something layer. Define a standard way to interface to hardware interfaces, like knobs, buttons, display, leds.

Invent the less technology possible.

Publish royalty free the platform specification and reference design. Lobby to convince plugin developers to port to the platform, start with the small one that may have an immediate advantage.

 

Sell a few model based on the platform, and make industrial alliance with other hardware  builders.

 

OK, if anybody here have a few spare million dollars I am willing to do it :).

 

Maurizio

 

 

 

The number of people that would choose this off the shelf platform would certainly start off small.  So MI software developers would hesitate to spend time on it, they want the user base already there.  
 

That’s not to say there wouldn’t be a few decent things to choose from.  If you installed Linux on the box, some developers like Uhe and his Linux builds of the CLAP plugins would be a pretty good start.  NI?   East West?  Not likely. 

[Docbop]

17 minutes ago, ElmerJFudd said:

 

 

The number of people that would choose this off the shelf platform would certainly start off small.  So MI software developers would hesitate to spend time on it, they want the user base already there.  
 

That’s not to say there wouldn’t be a few decent things to choose from.  If you installed Linux on the box, some developers like Uhe and his Linux builds of the CLAP plugins would be a pretty good start.  NI?   East West?  Not likely. 

 

Like the computer world how many people buy a computer versus buy parts and build their own.      In my working days as SysAdmin for my personal computers I usually built my own sometimes buying a computer like a Sun workstation that couldn't by DIY parts.    These days I just want to just to use my computer so I buy off the shelf,  I don't want to spend time spec' out, building, and tweaking drivers any more.   I think in keyboard world be the same buy a keyboard with it's hardware and software interface,  presets, sound libraries and get as close to what you want as you can.    Or DIY with tablet/laptop, sound libraries,  mainstage type software,  and create all your own presets and what controls will do what.    Both how much do you want to tinker to "roll your own" versus buy "close enough" and focus on playing. 

[Reezekeys]

Absolutely. Think of the time investment implementing a "roll your own" approach, even if the parts themselves wind up cheaper. Implementing as in researching the options, doing the actual build, then troubleshooting. Makes no sense unless you want to do it for the experience - if so, that's great, just not a viable business model imo.

[Ibarch]

From where the industry is now, a pragmatic way forward would be for a keyboard manufacturer to integrate a tablet pc into their keyboard hardware. 

 

As an example, based on the kit I know something about (other manufactors and products are available) :-

 

Roland could start out with an Rd stage piano, eg an rd-88 or RD2000. They already have built in audio interface and internal / external zones to control sounds. 

 

They could build in a Windows tablet PC (eg surface pro or equivalent)  to primarily run as a VST host. The OS could be configured properly for audio, have all drivers reinstalled and tested, have the OS restricted to run their VST host program. This would be connected internally via a standard usb port (maybe tweak the hardware to make a more robust connection than a normal cable).

 

The tablet would primarily use a touch screen, so would need a VST host that has a decent touch UI. Steinberg VST Live isn't too bad as an example.

 

Some software development would be required to improve the user experience to source and install VST libraries and plug ins. Make it easier and better than the standard web browser / download assistants we currently use. 

 

Some straightforward setup would enable the external zones of the Rd board to be reconfigured to work with the VST host.  Separate midi channels would do the job. 

 

The end result is a keyboard that can make use of onboard sounds via internal zones and the existing library of VST instruments from external zones, combined in any desired combination. 

 

A product like this could be built today with relatively little investment. It doesn't need a ton of R&D. It doesn't need every developer to rewrite their products in yet another new format. Any of the keyboard manufacturers could do it, maintaining their own IP and investments in sounds, hardware, architecture and boards whilst allowing easy coexistence with the online world. I'm always going to want a keyboard to play on that suits me, but I want access to everything my pc has too. This would achieve that. 

 

By starting with a commodity PC design, manufacturers are almost there. They don't have to dream up a whole new architecture and OS. Windows provides most of what is needed (Linux may too) . The manufacturer could standardise the final build, drivers etc to remove most of the risk/pain in the PC world and have a tested and supportable combination of hardware and software to remove the problem of millions of different configurations. Users can reuse the software they already own. Granted, lots of legacy plugins would likely need a user interface upgrade but many be manageable, if not perfect. 

 

 

The only other option I see for this is if Apple were to become serious about audio and develop the iPad ecosystem further. They have the deep pockets and the capacity to do this. However, currently their stubbornness to put a grown up OS on the iPad is a showstopper. It restricts the virtual instrument range availability to a tiny %, just those who have taken the pain to develop for iOS. If they made an about face and adapted MacOS to run on there, they could steal the market. 

 

So, anyone see Caiso, Yamaha, Korg, Roland, Nord etc doing this anytime soon? 

 

[ElmerJFudd]

15 minutes ago, Ibarch said:

From where the industry is now, a pragmatic way forward would be for a keyboard manufacturer to integrate a tablet pc into their keyboard hardware. 

 

As an example, based on the kit I know something about (other manufactors and products are available) :-

 

Roland could start out with an Rd stage piano, eg an rd-88 or RD2000. They already have built in audio interface and internal / external zones to control sounds. 

 

They could build in a Windows tablet PC (eg surface pro or equivalent)  to primarily run as a VST host. The OS could be configured properly for audio, have all drivers reinstalled and tested, have the OS restricted to run their VST host program. This would be connected internally via a standard usb port (maybe tweak the hardware to make a more robust connection than a normal cable).

 

The tablet would primarily use a touch screen, so would need a VST host that has a decent touch UI. Steinberg VST Live isn't too bad as an example.

 

Some software development would be required to improve the user experience to source and install VST libraries and plug ins. Make it easier and better than the standard web browser / download assistants we currently use. 

 

Some straightforward setup would enable the external zones of the Rd board to be reconfigured to work with the VST host.  Separate midi channels would do the job. 

 

The end result is a keyboard that can make use of onboard sounds via internal zones and the existing library of VST instruments from external zones, combined in any desired combination. 

 

A product like this could be built today with relatively little investment. It doesn't need a ton of R&D. It doesn't need every developer to rewrite their products in yet another new format. Any of the keyboard manufacturers could do it, maintaining their own IP and investments in sounds, hardware, architecture and boards whilst allowing easy coexistence with the online world. I'm always going to want a keyboard to play on that suits me, but I want access to everything my pc has too. This would achieve that. 

 

By starting with a commodity PC design, manufacturers are almost there. They don't have to dream up a whole new architecture and OS. Windows provides most of what is needed (Linux may too) . The manufacturer could standardise the final build, drivers etc to remove most of the risk/pain in the PC world and have a tested and supportable combination of hardware and software to remove the problem of millions of different configurations. Users can reuse the software they already own. Granted, lots of legacy plugins would likely need a user interface upgrade but many be manageable, if not perfect. 

 

 

The only other option I see for this is if Apple were to become serious about audio and develop the iPad ecosystem further. They have the deep pockets and the capacity to do this. However, currently their stubbornness to put a grown up OS on the iPad is a showstopper. It restricts the virtual instrument range availability to a tiny %, just those who have taken the pain to develop for iOS. If they made an about face and adapted MacOS to run on there, they could steal the market. 

 

So, anyone see Caiso, Yamaha, Korg, Roland, Nord etc doing this anytime soon? 

 

Roland and Korg are further along in desktop OS licensing of their IP than Yamaha - but only if you ignore Yamaha’s acquisition of Steinberg.  
 

I don’t believe any of them are interested in a controller with a PC dock. Mainly because not all PCs  dock the same way and the form factor/size changes all the time.  Doing one for Mac mini or NUC might work until tech changes again.  
 

From what Roland is doing with subscriptions for their cloud and Zenology.  It would be in their best interest to do a Zenology specific controller that best highlights the features of their software.  

[Ibarch]

I'm not thinking of a dock, more like a fully built in tablet pc that replaces the existing keyboard screens. 

[Reezekeys]

 

 

Once again.... Open Labs. Kind of what's being described in these last few posts. Were they too ahead of their time? It could be argued that back then, keyboards' built-in sounds weren't nearly as good as what could be done using a computer & plugins, so they should have had a hit product, no? These days, aren't the quality of built-in sounds getting better? I can't see the demand for a kind of product like what's being talked about, but don't let me dissuade anybody if they want to make it happen!

[ElmerJFudd]

33 minutes ago, Ibarch said:

I'm not thinking of a dock, more like a fully built in tablet pc that replaces the existing keyboard screens. 

The only downside to that brought up earlier is when the specs for the machine can’t run the latest VST/AUs.  But, like any other PC, if you don’t update the OS, the AU/VST host, instruments and fx you installed when the machine was current it will function for the life of the hardware.  
 

Pulling this off, in my mind, is easiest by disassembling something like a Yamaha P-125.  Taking the action and components and mounting in ones own case along with the small form factor PC and necessary cabling.  I’d put something like a 7 or 10” touch screen monitor where they usually give us tiny screens.  

[ElmerJFudd]

9 minutes ago, Reezekeys said:

 

 

Once again.... Open Labs. Kind of what's being described in these last few posts. Were they too ahead of their time? It could be argued that back then, keyboards' built-in sounds weren't nearly as good as what could be done using a computer & plugins, so they should have had a hit product, no? These days, aren't the quality of built-in sounds getting better? I can't see the demand for a kind of product like what's being talked about, but don't let me dissuade anybody if they want to make it happen!

The benefit of the hardware we get in digital pianos, synths and workstations is the low latency and high  polyphony they can get on comparatively meager specs like a dedicated DSP chip and barebones operating system.  

[aronnelson]

My work-around (and it's not as good) is any controller keyboard with MIDI out->Mac mini running MainStage and the "screen" is an iPad running VNC. 

I have not tried my RD-88 to the Mac mini yet.  The polyphony on the Mac mini is really great and the latency seems fine.

[ElmerJFudd]

50 minutes ago, aronnelson said:

My work-around (and it's not as good) is any controller keyboard with MIDI out->Mac mini running MainStage and the "screen" is an iPad running VNC. 

I have not tried my RD-88 to the Mac mini yet.  The polyphony on the Mac mini is really great and the latency seems fine.

They say the RD88 has some feedback integration with MainStage.  For example seeing current patch in your play list on the RD’s screen.  You’ll have to share what else you find when you finally match it up with your mini.  

[Paul Woodward]

In terms of what you can do right now, it comes back to the iPad. It’s been discussed (not sure if Apple have actually confirmed as well) that the iPad is throttled in terms of running full blown programs as that would eat into their MacBook sales. The iPads certainly have the power, but they need to keep these two markets separate and so we have slightly limited apps.

Still, look at it positively, If you had told me 15 years ago that a stupidly thin tablet with a large touch screen would have a Fairlight, Moog, Korg classic keys and a workstation, Roland and Yamaha sounds, full blown DAWS, effects, guitar processors and more, I would have slapped you with a wet fish and told you to get a grip. We live in remarkable times.

[mauriziodececco]

On 4/26/2023 at 7:50 PM, ElmerJFudd said:

 

 

The number of people that would choose this off the shelf platform would certainly start off small.  So MI software developers would hesitate to spend time on it, they want the user base already there.  
 

That’s not to say there wouldn’t be a few decent things to choose from.  If you installed Linux on the box, some developers like Uhe and his Linux builds of the CLAP plugins would be a pretty good start.  NI?   East West?  Not likely. 

 

Yes, It would be a slow bootstrap; and by the way, the fact that the platform is open, doesn't means that the final product is open to final users; after all, a number of companies is already working on similar platforms, like Korg and even Akai with its MPC Keys. I think the biggest problem is finding the actor having enough money and vision to start such thing ...

 

Maurizio