For those who won't play brass on keyboards…

[Adam Burgess]

Just a quick laugh to make the purists feel a little ill at the thought of those who do not only play piano, EP, and B3 on their revered keyboards…

Just got a call to play Keys 2 for a production of Spamalot in Abu Dhabi. I think this wins the award for the most ever patch changes in 2 hours! 

Must insist they hire the MainStage concert. No way am I sitting down to program this for a couple of weeks! 🫠

Score looks fun to play, though 🤪

[stoken6]

Yeah that's trying too hard. I get why keys would play a string section in a pit orchestra. But all those woodwind and guitar cues? Spamalot instrumentation calls for full-time percussion (alongside drums), 2 reeds, guitar ...

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Adam Burgess]

Just now, stoken6 said:

Yeah that's trying too hard. I get why keys would play a string section in a pit orchestra. But all those woodwind and guitar cues? Spamalot instrumentation calls for full-time percussion (alongside drums), 2 reeds, guitar ...

 

Cheers, Mike.

Yes, very true! Think there's 10x players in this band!

I'm still asking for more $$$. These gigs just need serious concentration - just relentless for 2 hours. The real flute player, for example, will have an easy peasy time!

[stoken6]

1 minute ago, Adam Burgess said:

The real flute player, for example, will have an easy peasy time!

Musical pit reeds players are super talented - they're expected to "triple" on flute, clarinet and sax - plus possibly oboe. But I sometimes wish that composers would write for the lineup, rather than a Hollywood scoring stage orchestra, and then throwing keyboards at the problem...

 

I saw My Fair Lady last year here in London - there must have been 35+ (acoustic, no synths) musicians in the pit. Beautiful.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Adam Burgess]

I did a load of theatre shows back in the UK. I agree!  Gorgeous arrangements - no ridiculous things like above. Guess it's just easy to do the arrangements in Sibelius and copy/paste everything into a keyboard part if someone else is busy - rather than writing for a specific line-up.

Best ones for me: I played keyboard bass for Anything Goes. Only other electric thing was the guitar.
Proper big band "4x Tpts, 4x Bones, 3 reeds" line up with violin, and 2x percussion. 

Also Mack and Mabel. Very similar but I was on Strings. Basically unison octaves all the way thru and great fun.

Reeds had EVERYTHING with them. Piccolo, Flute, all the Saxes, Clarinet, Bass Clarinet, Bassoon, Contrabassoon, Oboe…
How they play those runs, especially with the EXTRA key changes that go on top of the crazy amount in musical theatre!
 

[SamuelBLupowitz]

Keys 2 in a musical theater pit is a whole other kettle of fish from playing in a band, that’s for sure. That’s why I always stuck to bass for those gigs!

[Dockeys]

Keys 2 has evolved so much in recent years. It used to be a case of cover for keys one parts and then padding out stuff like strings (reinforcing strings already in the band or layering on top of existing brass). even though a lot of them have becomes more challenging they were still fun to play. Lately it’s just nuts. There’s so many ridiculous patch changes and sample triggers with split seconds to change that’s it less about playing and more akin to button pressing. 
 

I'm doing Kinky boots at the moment and whist it’s not as bad as this one there are some really difficult corners in terms of patch changes. One false step and you risk playing a very brash dance patch instead of a gentle harp.
 

Considering the amount of prep time for all the setting up of patches I’d be veering towards playing piano on show gigs. 

[Adam Burgess]

27 minutes ago, SamuelBLupowitz said:

Keys 2 in a musical theater pit is a whole other kettle of fish from playing in a band, that’s for sure. That’s why I always stuck to bass for those gigs!

Yup. I'm getting the old bass out for Little Shop of Horrors in a few weeks!

Always prefer to MD, or Keys 1!

[DaveMcM]

I’ve been rather stressed out as of late, but having to program all of that would put me over the edge. More power to you and have fun in Abu Dhabi.

[Adam Burgess]

20 minutes ago, Dockeys said:

Keys 2 has evolved so much in recent years. It used to be a case of cover for keys one parts and then padding out stuff like strings (reinforcing strings already in the band or layering on top of existing brass). even though a lot of them have becomes more challenging they were still fun to play. Lately it’s just nuts. There’s so many ridiculous patch changes and sample triggers with split seconds to change that’s it less about playing and more akin to button pressing. 
 

I'm doing Kinky boots at the moment and whist it’s not as bad as this one there are some really difficult corners in terms of patch changes. One false step and you risk playing a very brash dance patch instead of a gentle harp.
 

Considering the amount of prep time for all the setting up of patches I’d be veering towards playing piano on show gigs. 

Some of these changes are in weird places! And, yes - a double patch change could be hilarious!

What screws my head up are parts where a high C is triggering a horn chord a mile down the keyboard! Just doesn't sit well with me!

I'd much rather play Keys 1, but I do get work doing the donkey work of Keys 2 and covering what ever else is missing, as there aren't a great many proper reading players here! The Lord giveth the gigs and taketh the prep time! 

[Adam Burgess]

2 minutes ago, DaveMcM said:

I’ve been rather stressed out as of late, but having to program all of that would put me over the edge. More power to you and have fun in Abu Dhabi.

Yes, playing the notes is scary enough! I'm insisting they rent buy a MainStage Concert. No way would I program this for one run!

Thanks for the support! I hope what ever is causing you any stress gets worked out, mate 🙂 

 

[jeffincltnc]

David Weiser can program this in his sleep on a Kurzweil.  🙂

[ElmerJFudd]

Haha. All those books where keys replace players look like this.  Great work for one of us…  not so good for 2, 4, 6 other players.  

[Adam Burgess]

10 minutes ago, ElmerJFudd said:

Haha. All those books where keys replace players look like this.  Great work for one of us…  not so good for 2, 4, 6 other players.  

Sadly true, but at least they're not using all tracks! 11x in the pit for this one.

I do think a part of it isn't just replacing musicians, rather it's "I had a great Massed Horn section plugin a la Hans Zimmer Batman" and "it sounded great in Sibelius". So rather than re-arrange the piece so it sounds good with a line-up of a Horn, Trumpet, and Trombone, they just copy and paste to a "Synth" part.

How many theatres/PACs could afford and accommodate 8x French Horns just for the Finale and a death scene halfway…? It's the whole getting a Hollywood sound with 10x players thing 😞 

[ElmerJFudd]

Indeed, it’s both a cost savings and keeps a live pit with some number of players a part of live theater.  

[Reezekeys]

This brings me back to the days I replaced strings with Liza Minnelli. How times have changed; they had no synth book (arrangers didn't know about synths back then, I guess!). I got piano/conductor charts - basically lead sheets with chord symbols and a few lines here & there. I improvised string arrangements every night! At one point I got a little bored and started playing along with the brass & woodwinds on my DX7 using a breath controller. This was the early 80s. I subbed on the gig in the 90s - and by then arrangers had gotten wise. Nothing like what's described in the OP here of course - but I would see text telling me what sounds to switch to on a few charts.

 

Good luck on that show, Adam. If I got the call for that I would have to politely decline. My sight-reading is bad enough, add in patch changing (even stepping on a pedal) and I'm gonna need extra milk of magnesia to get through the gig!

[Adam Burgess]

5 minutes ago, Reezekeys said:

This brings me back to the days I replaced strings with Liza Minnelli. How times have changed; they had no synth book (arrangers didn't know about synths back then, I guess!). I got piano/conductor charts - basically lead sheets with chord symbols and a few lines here & there. I improvised string arrangements every night! At one point I got a little bored and started playing along with the brass & woodwinds on my DX7 using a breath controller. This was the early 80s. I subbed on the gig in the 90s - and by then arrangers had gotten wise. Nothing like what's described in the OP here of course - but I would see text telling me what sounds to switch to on a few charts.

 

Good luck on that show, Adam. If I got the call for that I would have to politely decline. My sight-reading is bad enough, add in patch changing (even stepping on a pedal) and I'm gonna need extra milk of magnesia to get through the gig!

Can totally relate! You're expected to arrange on the fly. Voices, voicing, the lot. It's not something that every keys player can do, by any stretch! Did the Supremes (sans Diana Ross, of course!) a few years back when they came thru Dubai - kinda got the top string lines and brass something like what was in my head! Just from a chart C / / / F / / / Am / / / F / G /… 🙂 or one that got transposed into B, except all the A chords are G double sharps or something haha. Trying to glue together G double sharp > B sharp > D is hard, and just never looks right! (A C D is far easier!) 

Believe me, I'd rather do that than play this. Sometimes, you think a chord needs another octave below or a 'bit more' third in it. With this - that extra note could be a duck quacking, a taiko drum at full velocity. Gotta be really precise and a lot of the time, ignore the relationship between what you think you're playing and hearing. Sometimes, they make no sense!

But, I need the money! Rather be working! 

[Reezekeys]

I hear ya! I'm doing something in this ballpark right now... a Nat King Cole tribute show where I'm recreating some of the Nelson Riddle string arrangements - and they're pretty involved. I'm using a "midi chords" plugin and some transposing trickery to get it all done and sounding good (one of the tunes has me playing in different keys with each hand!). I'd sure rent a Mainstage concert to do what I've spent the last day & a half of prep time doing - and I have two more songs to go. Of course I looked for midifiles of the string arrangements online but didn't see them! 🙂 

[Adam Burgess]

Just now, Reezekeys said:

I hear ya! I'm doing something in this ballpark right now... a Nat King Cole tribute show where I'm recreating some of the Nelson Riddle string arrangements - and they're pretty involved! I'm using a "midi chords" plugin and some transposing trickery to get it all done and sounding good. I'd sure rent a Mainstage concert to do what I've spent the last day & a half of prep time doing - and I have two more songs to go. Of course I looked for midifiles of the string arrangements online but didn't see them! 🙂 

It's so hard to do counterpoint, especially legato strings etc. with only two hands! And, always feels a bit of a waste of limbs.

I've done string parts on the Kronos and MainStage where it's kinda possible, but, again - you have to be sooo precise, as only one correct note can ever follow the previous correct note. It's a fragile state, and not one that I like! Tedious copying parts into Combis just for one note, that bears no resemblance to what note you actually hit.

I do tend to transcribe a lot of stuff, as I would for real players and then looks for the patterns afterwards, and think how it's possible to do legato lines afterwards… It's a lot of prep, but - I enjoy it when it works. Even brass stabs, to get the voicing correct, it becomes a lot of work.

[Reezekeys]

Exactly... great when it works. There's a sense of accomplishment when you can pull off these kinds of things but at least in my case it's very nerve-racking! Transcribing these Nelson Riddle strings adds an extra layer of time spent. The arrangements have plenty of woodwinds doubling but also filling in other chord tones, with different moving lines as well. A pretty big challenge, for me at least. The MidiChords plugin from Pizmidi is a godsend. I just posted about finding a replacement as it no longer works in MacOS Big Sur, but I booted into an earlier system so I can use it for this show.

[Adam Burgess]

It's nervy, for sure! Just that fragility of one tiny slip screwing a whole line up gets the blood pressure up!

But! Yes! Do it live. Better than tracks!

Would love to hear the outcomes of your arrangements!

 

 

[Chummy]

Jeez Louise this is unreal man! and I thought 20 different sounds during a gig is plenty... how about this LOL

[Dave Keys]

You need Set List Maker. One tap on the screen and everything is loaded, be it a multi or single board set up. 

[MathOfInsects]

They had me at 'descritpion.'

[timwat]

My personal nightmare was a sub gig for the Shrek musical...both the MD and the keys player I was subbing for tried to make it as easy an experience as possible, but there were sections they seemed to try to combine Keys 1 and Keys 2, so needed patch changes in weird places on a keyboard I had never played, with no real instruction where the patches were. Oy vey.

 

But to be fair, I did not need to switch to Bass Kazoo.

 

Ever.

 

I wonder if Busch has a Purgatory sample of a bass kazoo...

[Adam Burgess]

1 hour ago, timwat said:

My personal nightmare was a sub gig for the Shrek musical...both the MD and the keys player I was subbing for tried to make it as easy an experience as possible, but there were sections they seemed to try to combine Keys 1 and Keys 2, so needed patch changes in weird places on a keyboard I had never played, with no real instruction where the patches were. Oy vey.

 

But to be fair, I did not need to switch to Bass Kazoo.

 

Ever.

 

I wonder if Busch has a Purgatory sample of a bass kazoo...

I don't even know what a Bass Kazoo is, or a Crumhorn… 

But the MainStage file shall be with me tomorrow.

The next thing is - can I fit fit the concert a slim Arturia 61, or do I have to take a massive Kronos 88?!?

 

It's a definite button pusher. So, shall I add a few things in MainStage to make me not hit the bottom A of an 88 for a random cymbal crash (when there are are two actual percussion players…) 

Will anyone notice, and/or care?!

 

[timwat]

The main reasons I go to see Spamalot are the cymbal crash and the bass kazoo.

[TommyRude]

10 minutes ago, Adam Burgess said:

I don't even know what a Bass Kazoo is

just sample a kazoo and tune it way down 😁

[Adam Burgess]

1 minute ago, TommyRude said:

just sample a kazoo and tune it way down 😁

 

Who has time for that for a one off? 🤪

I will post some demos of these unusual sounds. For example, I need to play "Jugs" at the same time as my "Bass Kazoo"

When the MainStage thing comes - let's see!

[TommyRude]

15 minutes ago, Adam Burgess said:

The next thing is - can I fit fit the concert a slim Arturia 61, or do I have to take a massive Kronos 88?!?

My head exploded when I first looked at your original post.

 

Then, thinking - is this a normal script for such a show?  Is it simply a sequential arrangement of sound effects that need to be triggered throughout the show?  Or do things actually need to be "played"?

 

If purely sequential-triggers, I might just arrange/number them left to right up the board, but I'm sure I'm missing 100's of things about how this all works.

 

Whatever the case, good luck!