Pink Floyd "Breathe" - making sense of chord progression

[MathOfInsects]

55 minutes ago, Morrissey said:

 

I was searching for a memorization hack for the B section.  I did enough web research before posting this thread to realize smart musicians reasonably disagree on the theoretical explanations underpinning what's going on in that part of the tune. 

 

On the theory front: A tonic is where a progression most feels like it's arrived at stability, or rest. "Home." There are some established ways to talk about it, but inside our heads, we can all hear this differently. If that A sounds stable or like "home" when you listen to it, call that the home key in that section if you want. Others might disagree, but the purpose of labeling is entirely for you, so go right ahead and label it. 

From a theory standpoint, the 7-ness of that A makes it a weaker candidate for a tonic, as does the song's relationship to that Em, structurally. Generally, the function of dominant-7 chords is to "pull" to that chord's fourth. That "pulling to" tendency makes it unstable, and therefore less likely to be the tonic here. But of course, there are plenty of times when home keys/tonics are dominant, too. So if it helps you, inside your head, make sense of these chords, call it "in A." It's unlikely to hurt anyone except a couple of easily hurt theory nerds, and they probably had it coming. 

[Morrissey]

4 minutes ago, MathOfInsects said:

So if it helps you, inside your head, make sense of these chords, call it "in A." It's unlikely to hurt anyone except a couple of easily hurt theory nerds, and they probably had it coming. 

 

Ha!

 

For my purposes -- i.e., quickly learning the tune for a one-off gig -- I've decided to stick with my first instinct and think about it as below.  Not suggesting it is a satisfying theoretical explanation but I do like its relative simplicity

 

A section: Key of Em (i - IV)

B section: (Relative Major) Key of G (IV - iii - bVII - I - V#9 - bVIdim) 

[MAJUSCULE]

But dominant sevens, while not being a tonic sound in Western theory, are omnipresent as the tonic sound in blues music, which is a pretty darn big influence on rock.

 

But regardless, I do like the way you’re going to approach it, Morrissey.

[Morrissey]

4 minutes ago, MAJUSCULE said:

But dominant sevens, while not being a tonic sound in Western theory, are omnipresent as the tonic sound in blues music,

 

Good point.  I'm comfortable calling a Dom 7 a 1 chord (Mustang Sally is first song that comes to mind).  In this case, I'm seduced by convenience of thinking about A section and B section as relative major/minor of each other.

[MathOfInsects]

1 hour ago, MAJUSCULE said:

But dominant sevens, while not being a tonic sound in Western theory, are omnipresent as the tonic sound in blues music, which is a pretty darn big influence on rock.

 

But regardless, I do like the way you’re going to approach it, Morrissey.

Sure thing, so then you look at the rest of what’s going on to determine what the tonic might be. This one really “officially” suggests Em and then G. But again, to me the song is sort of “post-theoretical.” You just play those chords in that order, and that’s how the song goes. 

[CowboyNQ]

1 hour ago, MathOfInsects said:

Sure thing, so then you look at the rest of what’s going on to determine what the tonic might be. This one really “officially” suggests Em and then G. But again, to me the song is sort of “post-theoretical.” You just play those chords in that order, and that’s how the song goes. 

I am adding “post-theoretical” to “other people’s original music” on my “gems thieved from MOI” list.

[Finale]

Geez... This is Pink Floyd, not the Mahavishnu Orchestra, King Crimson or Stewart, Holdsworth, Berlin and Bruford. So analyze it as much as if you just had some LSD-25. 🤪 Don't overthink, man.  Feel it.

 

Many moons ago, as musical director this is what I told the guys in the PF tribute band to play :

a) Em9 , A7

b) CM7, Bm7, FM7, G7, D7#9, Cm/D#

 

The last chord in the studio LP was a Cdim/D#, but I always found it imperfect/boring compared to sound a G (Cm) instead of a F# (Cdim) in the transition before the return to Em. So emphasizing the lower RH notes in the original (Cdim/D#), you get F#, then F# then G once back to Em. With Cm/D#, you get F#, then G and G back to Em. So it develops more gradually to the Em return. Remember Pink Floyd is the minor chords everywhere band. In DSOTM, Wright insisted a few weird chords should be heard here and there (remember that other unusual Us and Them chord), but besides that, it's back to the PF basics.

[CowboyNQ]

One of the tricks to PF is there’s often a lot of “less is more” happening with the chord voicing.  Often the guitar and keys combine to build the complete picture of the chord by attacking it from different angles.

 

But I totally get OP’s approach.  If one can build up a sense of “why” in a chord progression it makes it easier to remember.  Particularly if you’re not playing it often, as I believe is the case here.  
 

Song lyrics work the same way, which is why the words to “Two Suns in the Sunset” are 1,000 times easier to remember than “Yet Another Movie”, to stick with the PF theme.

[analogika]

A good test to see whether a chord has a tonic function is to end the song there. 
 

you may feel differently, but ending the song on the A7 does not work for me. 

[MAJUSCULE]

6 hours ago, analogika said:

you may feel differently

 

The beauty of art

[Leroy C]

11 minutes ago, MAJUSCULE said:

 

The beauty of art

Indeed. 

 

I can only hear that Em7 - A7 section in A.  The vocal melody only makes sense to me that way.

 

"Breathe ... " Starts on E, the fifth of A.

"Breathe in the air ...   Ends on C# the third.  (Would sound weird to me to as the 6th of E.)

"Don't be afraid to care"  Makes its way down to A, the tonic.  (Would sound weird to me as the fourth of E.)

 

That's how I hear it, YMMV, and you're not wrong!

[SMcD]

I think of the verses as a i-IV in E Dorian. Pretty heavy on the upper extensions, but the E minor feels like "home" to me, especially with the chromatic motion back into it at the end of the B section.

[PianoMan51]

Here’s what I hear…

 

A section is in E Dorian. Two sharps. Could easily cadence on a D tonic if it wanted to. I hear the e minor to A7 as coming more from English folk music than blues. This was a common progression in Neil Young, James Taylor type songs in the late 60s.

 

B section is G Major. One sharp, and slightly surprising because our ears would expect a C#, not the C natural. (A ‘modern’ take on major with a dominant 7 +9 (D7+9) as well as a bVII back door.) The mnemonic is that it’s a walk-down from 4 to 1, but with the minor ii being replaced by the major bVII. The walk-down is another common folk chord progression. So instead of C, bm, am, G, we have C, bm, F, G. Then followed by the dominant 7+9 of G. 
 

Turnaround back to e minor via a D# diminished.

 

Damn, when I re-read this, it looks like gobbledygook!

[CowboyNQ]

I like how Breathe finishes differently to its reprise.  This is important as the reprise leads beautifully into The Great Gig In The Sky on the album.

 

A “magic spell” indeed!

[Morrissey]

5 hours ago, PianoMan51 said:

The mnemonic is that it’s a walk-down from 4 to 1, but with the minor ii being replaced by the major bVII

 

THIS is the hack I sought!

[MathOfInsects]

 

7 hours ago, PianoMan51 said:

The mnemonic is that it’s a walk-down from 4 to 1, but with the minor ii being replaced by the major bVII.

 

1 hour ago, Morrissey said:

 

THIS is the hack I sought!

Yeah, that's great!

 

[jerrythek]

Yes, as I wrote earlier, had I needed to transpose the tune I then would use some sort of analysis to better remember it. Like MOI wrote, I often use the interval of root movements approach (how many steps up or down combined with chord quality approach), especially if a tune isn’t using easy to understand functional harmony. But I agree that PianoMan51’s approach for the bridge is a really easy and logical way to remember it. Good stuff!

 

On 4/12/2023 at 4:30 PM, Morrissey said:

 

I was searching for a memorization hack for the B section.  I did enough web research before posting this thread to realize smart musicians reasonably disagree on the theoretical explanations underpinning what's going on in that part of the tune. 

 

[Delaware Dave]

you guys are still talking about this ????

[Leroy C]

2 hours ago, Delaware Dave said:

you guys are still talking about this ????

Dude, it's a discussion board.  It's right in the name!