Recommended Nord piano patches for jazz combo

[CharlieLosGatos]

HI All,

I play in a jazz combo and have been struggling to get a satisfying sound live.  I have a Nord Piano 4 played through a Motion Sound 408s.  The issue I have is that the piano sounds "tinny" thin and too bright and I can't get the warmth of a real piano.  I know there are always better amplification systems but here I am looking for recommendations on different piano patches or effects or eq. I should use.  

 

On the other hand, the Nord is fun to play through headphones. I almost always use the White Grand. 

 

I use the White Grand since that sounds great through headphones but perhaps there are better choices for playing jazz live.  I am interested in hearing the experience of others. There are so many pianos available I need to narrow it down to one or two.

 

Charlie

[cphollis]

2 hours ago, CharlieLosGatos said:

  I have a Nord Piano 4 played through a Motion Sound 408s.  The issue I have is that the piano sounds "tinny" thin and too bright and I can't get the warmth of a real piano. 

Have you fully explored the tone shaping capabilities on the NP4?  There's a lot you can do to any one of the piano samples to make them sound good, even through a lo-fi CPS SSv3  

 

For example, the "equalizer" button on the NP4 is very effective at getting distinct tones.  I use "bright" for electric bands, and "soft" for acoustic.  Setting KBD TOUCH to 3 (heavy) makes it easier to get more nuance out of the samples.  Moderate compression will help you sit better in the mix with less clang.  And the final EQ stage will probably sound better with a small notch at ~400 Hz to tame muddiness, and whatever bass boost you need to get the bottom from the MS 408 that you want.  Add reverb and perhaps some very subtle chorus to taste.

 

Once you get comfortable with those controls, you'll find that you can get a very wide range of useful tones from any one of the samples.  I start with brighter ones and filter accordingly: White Grand, Black Upright and so on.  I usually will use 3-4 piano samples for an acoustic night of music, sticking with L size.

 

Best of luck!

[PianoMan51]

Hi Charlie.

 

I don’t use Nord or Motion Sound. But I believe you have a keyboard that can create excellent stereo piano and a speaker that can sound very good. So you have very good gear.
 

You didn’t mention the EQ on the Nord. I play mostly acoustic piano sounds for gigging and I can’t imagine getting a musical sound without using multi band EQ. Using my Yamaha CP4 or YC73 I find that there are three EQ settings that are crucial.

 

1. Bass. Let’s say from 80Hz down I drop the low shelf down 8dB or even more. This keeps my left hand able to play when needed, but not conflicting with the bassist. The lower notes still sound just like my digital piano, but with the fundamental less pronounced. The character of the piano is not affected. 

 

2. Low-Mids. From maybe 100 to 200Hz, very small changes, like +/- 2 or 3dB make big differences in the “warmth” of the piano’s baritone range. So if it’s a ballad where I want a warm full sound I’ll raise low-mids 3dB. For louder, faster tunes with more instruments I’ll do the opposite to clean up the band’s sound.

 

3. Low-treble. I made up that term just now. Most mixers will have a treble shelf that starts at 10kHz. This is way too high for piano overtones. A treble shelf like your Nord is, I think at 4kHz, which is good. Plan on making changes to this depending on the song, the band instrumentation and the room. 
 

Make these EQ settings your servants. Yes, your piano may sound perfect through good headphones, but your sound through your amp with your band playing your song choices at your gig needs to be crafted by you.

[obxa]

 

I've found the two Yamaha Grand samples work well.  I've tried to use the white and velvet on amplified gigs,  but have never been pleased because there's not enough harmonic content to work with once you play wtih other instruments.   Like most stereo pianos, they do sound great in ears/headphones.   The XL version of the Bright Yamaha works well because you can be subtractive and  pull the top end down to taste. The other more mellow Yamaha grand works pretty well for solo.   I would also strongly reccomend using the Mono button.

 

 I still use my Nord every Sunday for church, but have transitioned to a Studiologic Numa 73 for gigs.  They don't offer a mono button, so I've made specific patches that are mono-friendly, and catered towards the (single) Bose I use for solo-duo-trio stuff.  

 

4 hours ago, PianoMan51 said:

Yes, your piano may sound perfect through good headphones, but your sound through your amp with your band playing your song choices at your gig needs to be crafted by you.

 

To add to PianoMan's excellent EQ and setup advice:

 

I had bookmarked this keyboard mag article for a friend a while back who had just gotten his Nord Piano.  Probably written by one of the Mods here. 

https://www.musicradar.com/how-to/how-to-solve-stereo-stage-piano-problems

[stoken6]

4 hours ago, obxa said:

The XL version of the Bright Yamaha works well because you can be subtractive and  pull the top end down to taste

This. It's much easier to dull the bright than to bright(en) the dull.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Legatoboy]

I liked the Nord 'Italian Grand' sample for a modern  urban Jazz acoustic piano sound, it isn't to heavy and transparent enough for jazz.... it has a bit of a sheen to it when played with the right material.. when I say urban I mean 'all acoustic' but I found it had sort of that old 'Charlie Rose Show' music intro vibe in it...depends how and what you play as always with this stuff....  I've recorded with it successfully a number of times in a  jazz context ... may want to give that one a download and a try. I have a lot of Yamaha piano samples in various axes but have to play them and think about it for a while before I give an answer...but on the quick I like the YC - C7 patch for jazz and the 'Live Grand' patch (forgot the name exactly), that one is very playable. ... sticking with my Nord Piano Italian Grand on the Nord side..... 

[ProfD]

14 hours ago, PianoMan51 said:

I don’t use Nord or Motion Sound. But I believe you have a keyboard that can create excellent stereo piano and a speaker that can sound very good. So you have very good gear.
 

Make these EQ settings your servants. Yes, your piano may sound perfect through good headphones, but your sound through your amp with your band playing your song choices at your gig needs to be crafted by you.

Bingo. Turn some knobs to 'dial in' the desired flavor and/or get closer to it. 😎

[MathOfInsects]

Great advice in this thread, particularly on the "piano" end. If the difference is reliably between headphones and the sound from the amp, it's pretty likely you'll need to take some time and dial in a good EQ setting for that 408S, too, to use as a starting point. (You'll still need to adjust for different rooms/environments.) Make sure the "Expand" setting is very narrow to off; you won't really need it for piano. If you have some reverb on your piano sound, you can give it a little bit of "expand" to goose that along, but every nudge up on the expander weakens and unfocuses the piano sound a bit more, so this could be contributing to your thin sound.

Great advice from PianoMan51 on EQing piano for live performance, and a good tip from Chuck on the "preset" EQ's. I use these basically song to song if I want to hear something different from a piano patch whose sample you like. Something else I'd mention is that Nord does a nice job summing to mono, and the MS does a nice job creating a stereo field. So another option is to using a nice piano, let Nord sum it to mono, put a little reverb on it, and let the MS408S "Expand" that. It won't weaken the piano sound that way.

Nord's Black Upright is a really nice sounding piano, and same deal--with the "soft" preset EQ on the piano, and a hint of reverb, you can make a very workable gigging piano sound that sounds "real" but remains focused. 

But the first place I would start, particularly if you're happy with the sounds you are getting from the NP through the ears, is dedicating some time to playing with EQ on the MS480S.

[Docbop]

21 hours ago, CharlieLosGatos said:

HI All,

I play in a jazz combo and have been struggling to get a satisfying sound live.  I have a Nord Piano 4 played through a Motion Sound 408s.  The issue I have is that the piano sounds "tinny" thin and too bright and I can't get the warmth of a real piano.  I know there are always better amplification systems but here I am looking for recommendations on different piano patches or effects or eq. I should use.  

 

On the other hand, the Nord is fun to play through headphones. I almost always use the White Grand. 

 

I use the White Grand since that sounds great through headphones but perhaps there are better choices for playing jazz live.  I am interested in hearing the experience of others. There are so many pianos available I need to narrow it down to one or two.

 

Charlie

 

I find the same thing with my NS3 that the headphones sound great. I have my NS3 running into a audio interface and the recorded sound is same as the headphone really great.   But I have studio monitors connected and it can be hit and miss how good they sound even with the same samples and same EQ and reverb settings.   What I've discovered with the NS3 is the levels on the panel and the master have a lot of effect on the sound the gets to the speakers.   If I have the panel level all the way up it does start to thin out I drop the panel level some and it fattens up.   Master volume not as much, but some difference.  Then the gain on the audio interface plays into the equation also.  So a lot of this is about gain being setting by panel, master, and audio interface or if I used and amp the preamp stage.    So tweaking those setting can change the Nord sound.     Also I have install some of the Nord Artist packages and found sounds I like, then I study the settings they have like compression,  piano timbre, bright switch on reverb, etc.   So try experimenting with the gain, then there is a lot of muck with to dial in a sound you like.   

[Al Quinn]

I played jazz gigs with my Nord Stage 2 HA88 but was never satisfied. This went on for over three years. It was a frustrating experience because it recorded so well but something about it was uncomfortable -- even distracting -- when playing live. Unfortunately, I can't explain it in technical terms but I reached a point where I had to give up and look elsewhere. Next I bought a CP4; it plays beautifully and sounds very good on jazz gigs (and all gigs). I still have it.

 

There's something finicky about the Nord and amplification whereas the CP4 can be plugged into just about anything and sound good. Even going through a pair of RCF TT08As the Nord didn't sound very good. Of course this is just my opinion. 

 

I did an electric blues / classic rock gig this past Friday night with my YC73 and thought the acoustic piano sounded very good. I expect I would be happy doing a jazz gig with the YC73 but have not (yet). A few days ago I posted a short video of gig excerpts to show how the B3 and acoustic piano sounds. I'm playing through a pair of RCF TT08As on short folding stools behind me (and not going through the PA). The piano is a bit brighter than I like (i.e., I had the Hi EQ knob turned too high thinking it was necessary to cut though the mix), but the basic sound is to my liking and I'm confident a simple tweak is all that's needed. The B3 solo is first so start at 1:07 to only hear the piano solo. 

 

 

[Docbop]

31 minutes ago, Al Quinn said:

I played jazz gigs with my Nord Stage 2 HA88 but was never satisfied. This went on for over three years. It was a frustrating experience because it recorded so well but something about it was uncomfortable -- even distracting -- when playing live. Unfortunately, I can't explain it in technical terms but I reached a point where I had to give up and look elsewhere. Next I bought a CP4; it plays beautifully and sounds very good on jazz gigs (and all gigs). I still have it.

 

There's something finicky about the Nord and amplification whereas the CP4 can be plugged into just about anything and sound good. Even going through a pair of RCF TT08As the Nord didn't sound very good. Of course this is just my opinion. 

 

I did an electric blues / classic rock gig this past Friday night with my YC73 and thought the acoustic piano sounded very good. I expect I would be happy doing a jazz gig with the YC73 but have not (yet). A few days ago I posted a short video of gig excerpts to show how the B3 and acoustic piano sounds. I'm playing through a pair of RCF TT08As on short folding stools behind me (and not going through the PA). The piano is a bit brighter than I like (i.e., I had the Hi EQ knob turned too high thinking it was necessary to cut though the mix), but the basic sound is to my liking and I'm confident a simple tweak is all that's needed. The B3 solo is first so start at 1:07 to only hear the piano solo. 

 

 

 

From reading a lot of post from Nord users seems many instead of using the regular outputs on the Nord they get an adapter and use the headphone jack.    It is a strange issue, glad you're enjoying your YC73. 

[MathOfInsects]

42 minutes ago, Docbop said:

 

From reading a lot of post from Nord users seems many instead of using the regular outputs on the Nord they get an adapter and use the headphone jack.    It is a strange issue, glad you're enjoying your YC73. 

Interesting. Is the adaptor to control for the amped signal, or is it just an L/R splitter?

@Al Quinn, every day I get to hear you play is a good day. I've actually never heard anyone take a piano solo in Little Wing. Lovely. And I appreciated the band coming down for you on it, too. 

Have you done a gig with the SKPro over the YC yet? Or are you satisfied enough with the organ on the YC that it will work as a one-board solution for you?

 

 

[Docbop]

52 minutes ago, MathOfInsects said:

Interesting. Is the adaptor to control for the amped signal, or is it just an L/R splitter?
 

Just a L/R splitter. 

 

My guess is  because it a hotter output because it's for driving headphones.   

[Mighty Motif Max]

Try the Royal Grand 3D with a boost to the 100-275hz region. I'm not familiar with your particular amplifier but I was able to get a surprisingly decent sound out of a KC150 with the above settings. That or the aforementioned Black Upright are good starting points IMO.

[1203]

6 hours ago, Al Quinn said:

I played jazz gigs with my Nord Stage 2 HA88 but was never satisfied. This went on for over three years. It was a frustrating experience because it recorded so well but something about it was uncomfortable -- even distracting -- when playing live. Unfortunately, I can't explain it in technical terms but I reached a point where I had to give up and look elsewhere. Next I bought a CP4; it plays beautifully and sounds very good on jazz gigs (and all gigs). I still have it.

 

There's something finicky about the Nord and amplification whereas the CP4 can be plugged into just about anything and sound good. Even going through a pair of RCF TT08As the Nord didn't sound very good. Of course this is just my opinion. 

 

I did an electric blues / classic rock gig this past Friday night with my YC73 and thought the acoustic piano sounded very good. I expect I would be happy doing a jazz gig with the YC73 but have not (yet). A few days ago I posted a short video of gig excerpts to show how the B3 and acoustic piano sounds. I'm playing through a pair of RCF TT08As on short folding stools behind me (and not going through the PA). The piano is a bit brighter than I like (i.e., I had the Hi EQ knob turned too high thinking it was necessary to cut though the mix), but the basic sound is to my liking and I'm confident a simple tweak is all that's needed. The B3 solo is first so start at 1:07 to only hear the piano solo. 

 

 

That sounds very good! Which piano sample did you use there?

[Al Quinn]

19 hours ago, MathOfInsects said:

@Al Quinn, every day I get to hear you play is a good day. I've actually never heard anyone take a piano solo in Little Wing. Lovely. And I appreciated the band coming down for you on it, too. 

Have you done a gig with the SKPro over the YC yet? Or are you satisfied enough with the organ on the YC that it will work as a one-board solution for you?

 

Thanks Josh! Come to think of it I don't recall hearing a piano solo on Little Wing either. It's the music of my youth, I'm a big Jimi fan, I love that song, and have played in many times through the years. I was pleasantly surprised that the band came down for the piano solo. I had just met the bass player and drummer for the first time at the gig. The drummer was a sub and it was also his first time playing with the group. We were winging it (pun intended!) since there was no rehearsal. They listened well to what was going on around them; the interplay was really nice. 

 

Yes, when in New York I gig with the SK Pro 61 on top and the YC73 below through a KP-610S amp. It's an awesome rig! While living in a Florida condo for the winter I needed to lighten the load because my music room is two floors up from the car and I'm in my mid-60's. So when south the rig is just the YC73 and a pair of TT08As.

[Al Quinn]

14 hours ago, 1203 said:

That sounds very good! Which piano sample did you use there?

 

I'm pretty sure it's the CFX but I was trying other pianos so it could have been the C7.

[CharlieLosGatos]

Thanks all for the tips.   I think using eq is something I am going to have to gain some experience with.  On the nord because you have to set the frequency of the mid.  What is a typical frequency to use?

Another issue I have is that the amp is a couple feet of behind me (on a milk crate) and sounds really loud to me - almost intimidating - yet when I hear the band recorded through a mic in front of the stage the piano is really quiet.  Should I put the amp somewhere else or just accept that it it needs to sound really loud to me?

[MathOfInsects]

12 minutes ago, CharlieLosGatos said:

Thanks all for the tips.   I think using eq is something I am going to have to gain some experience with.  On the nord because you have to set the frequency of the mid.  What is a typical frequency to use?

Another issue I have is that the amp is a couple feet of behind me (on a milk crate) and sounds really loud to me - almost intimidating - yet when I hear the band recorded through a mic in front of the stage the piano is really quiet.  Should I put the amp somewhere else or just accept that it it needs to sound really loud to me?

IMO the MS needs to be on the floor, angled up at you, to sound best. There is some bass-coupling that happens down there that helps it along, and by the same token flat on the floor can make it sound just a little listless. On the floor but angled seems to be the secret sauce. YMMV...

[1203]

10 hours ago, Al Quinn said:

 

I'm pretty sure it's the CFX but I was trying other pianos so it could have been the C7.

Interesting - maybe it’s only me, but for me it sounds more like the C7. 

[PianoMan51]

11 hours ago, CharlieLosGatos said:

Thanks all for the tips.   I think using eq is something I am going to have to gain some experience with.  On the nord because you have to set the frequency of the mid.  What is a typical frequency to use?

Another issue I have is that the amp is a couple feet of behind me (on a milk crate) and sounds really loud to me - almost intimidating - yet when I hear the band recorded through a mic in front of the stage the piano is really quiet.  Should I put the amp somewhere else or just accept that it it needs to sound really loud to me?

Regarding EQ, see my response above. You must do experimentation yourself to train your ears on what each frequency range sounds like. Don’t skip this step. This is like how a chef uses their tasting spoon to find out if the soup needs more salt. 
 

The second issue is really a matter of both volume and placement of your amp. They work together.

 

Lets explore the problem set:

 

1. Your audience needs to hear your keys at right mix volume with the band. Pretty obvious.

2. Your bandmates need to hear your keys slightly lower in volume than their own instruments.

3. You need to hear your keys slightly louder than the rest of the band.

 

How to achieve this? 
 

First step is to get the right volume level for the audience. You have to have a trusted band member to go out in the audience during sound check to help you set it correctly. Note your keyboard and amp settings and leave them alone.

 

Second step is to situate your amp so that you and your bandmates can hear you, but you hear yourself slightly louder than they do. Very small movements in position and angle will make a significant difference. This is not easy, so plan on using patience and time to get this right. 
 

When you get the volume and amp position right, remember them. Consider this the norm for this band in this venue. You will have to repeat this process when you setup in a different configuration.

 

Now here’s my warning. Failure to do the above will mean that people don’t hear you, and you get ignored musically onstage and off. Frustration and tears.  Or, your bandmates hear you too loud and then hate your guts and turn up. 

[Al Quinn]

4 hours ago, 1203 said:

Interesting - maybe it’s only me, but for me it sounds more like the C7. 

That’s quite possible. You’re probably right. The keyboard’s still new to me so I was checking out different APs throughout the gig and especially on songs (like Little Wing) where I played only AP.