Talk to me about Organ LH bass

[Adan]

3 hours ago, SamuelBLupowitz said:

 

Does anyone know why and how these different approaches developed between jazz and gospel playing? Other than jazz players liking the percussion for the melodic work, that is.

I'd love to hear from a gospel player, but my hypothesis is there's two main reasons.  First, gospel playing is often chordal, not single line runs, so less space for percussion to have effect.  Second, gospel ensembles often have bass players, so there is less for the organ to do on bass, therefore might as well have your hands on the manual that's closer to you all else being equal.  But I'm speculating . . . could be totally wrong!

 

I've considered learning pedals, the reason I haven't relates to what Mitch said about jazz organ bass coming primarily from the left hand with pedals only supporting/emphasizing.  For me personally, the cost/benefit of learning a new and very difficult skill that is only auxilliary to the sound doesn't make sense.  If I had all the time in the world, I would do it.  But if I have to choose between learning pedals and mountain biking with my son, that's not even a decision.  And then there's the extra piece of equipment you'd have to carry around . . . 

 

One thought on Neal Evans.  My impression is that much of the time he's not so much doing walking bass but rather playing repeating lines to drive the groove.  That's not to diminish him.  His left hand and his ambidexterity is other-worldly, and he's certainly capable of walking.  But walking bass is a somewhat different skill to cultivate than what Neal is doing most of the time with Soulive.

[Mitch Towne]

7 minutes ago, Adan said:

 

 

I've considered learning pedals, the reason I haven't relates to what Mitch said about jazz organ bass coming primarily from the left hand with pedals only supporting/emphasizing.  For me personally, the cost/benefit of learning a new and very difficult skill that is only auxilliary to the sound doesn't make sense.  If I had all the time in the world, I would do it.  But if I have to choose between learning pedals and mountain biking with my son, that's not even a decision.  And then there's the extra piece of equipment you'd have to carry around . . . 

 

 

I didn’t mean to give that impression. Pedals are absolutely a vital part of playing jazz organ and I hate playing gigs without pedals. I only said what I said to dispel the myth that jazz players are playing all their bass lines with their feet. 
 

 

[Theo Verelst]

Smith was into a higher level of understanding composition and tone and sound, like, what relates the bass pattern or long acceptable sounding low notes to getting a certain sound produced, and what chords break open Jazz feels.

 

It's possible to get technical about accuracy (rhythm , the touch , filing in with the vibrato and Leslie rhythms) or to pry into the science of harmony, but a good organ player, regardless of the liberty to combine high and low notes with a certain registration, has to have taste over "opium for the people" kind of playing.

 

When I used to play a lot of organ (besides piano, synthesizer, keyboards and guitar), I recall it would take as much discipline to try not to dig one's own funk feel when it's actually just sloppy playing as it takes to prevent tear jerking and being merely suggestive about quotes, vamps, licks, themes and attractive rhythm figures, without getting anything to sound quite right.

 

Rhythm for keyboard players may take a long time to develop properly, even when practicing. Bass notes most if all require an understanding of forming humanly interesting tones and acoustics, which is different for a good studio recording or a live registration.

 

T

[ProfD]

48 minutes ago, Adan said:

One thought on Neal Evans.  My impression is that much of the time he's not so much doing walking bass but rather playing repeating lines to drive the groove.  That's not to diminish him.  His left hand and his ambidexterity is other-worldly, and he's certainly capable of walking.  But walking bass is a somewhat different skill to cultivate than what Neal is doing most of the time with Soulive.

Walking bass may be essential learning to those who choose to play Jazz organ in a traditional style. 

 

IMO, Neal Evans is the Jazz organist evolved.  His approach is the future of Jazz organ.😎

[Mitch Towne]

18 minutes ago, ProfD said:

Walking bass may be essential learning to those who choose to play Jazz organ in a traditional style. 

 

IMO, Neal Evans is the Jazz organist evolved.  His approach is the future of Jazz organ.😎

But you gotta start somewhere, and the concepts you absorb learning how to walk a bass line carry over into whatever style towards which you gravitate.  

[Adan]

1 hour ago, Mitch Towne said:

I didn’t mean to give that impression. Pedals are absolutely a vital part of playing jazz organ and I hate playing gigs without pedals. I only said what I said to dispel the myth that jazz players are playing all their bass lines with their feet. 
 

 

Fair enough.  I guess I'd still make the same point that if you don't know how to play pedals, it's not obvious that the effort it would require is worth what it adds to the music.  That calculation is going to depend on a variety of factors.  A pedal-less organ trio can still be worth listening to even if it's not the apex of the art form.

[Mitch Towne]

2 hours ago, Jazz+ said:

How about some posts on playing bass on slow jazz ballads on organ without a bass player? For example Blue In Green at tempo 66.

Sorry about the excessive clicky keys (not to be confused with key click). 
 

 

I gotta shed ballads more. 

[Jim Alfredson]

7 hours ago, Adan said:

Fair enough.  I guess I'd still make the same point that if you don't know how to play pedals, it's not obvious that the effort it would require is worth what it adds to the music.  That calculation is going to depend on a variety of factors.  A pedal-less organ trio can still be worth listening to even if it's not the apex of the art form.

As my mentor once told me, "If you're not going to play the pedals, then you might as well go play piano!"

The bass pedals add an immense amount to the organ bass.

[Mitch Towne]

45 minutes ago, Jim Alfredson said:

As my mentor once told me, "If you're not going to play the pedals, then you might as well go play piano!"

The bass pedals add an immense amount to the organ bass.

It’s kind of like having a 5 string bass and never using the B string. 

[CEB]

32’ baby. The bass On a great pipe organ is a spiritual thing. 

[dazzjazz]

Here an extract from my PhD theses on bass pedals. It’s hope it helps. 
 

Bass pedal myths 126 Jimmy Smith is the inventor and creator of the left-hand bass. Jimmy found the best stops to play the bass, the best way to play the bass. He chose the best that the instrument had to offer. - Caesar Frazier52 In much of the writing and folklore surrounding jazz organ, a great deal of misconception, myth and halftruths exist regarding the use of the Hammond’s bass pedals. Album liner notes often lionise a organist’s abilities on the bass pedals, documenting their left-hand chords and right hand melodies, as if jazz organ is simply a modern jazz piano style to which a set of bass pedals are attached. For example, Robert Levin: “The jazz organist needs not only to play chordal and (when in solo) melodic lines - the ordinary role of the piano - but, with a foot pedal, must simultaneously sustain the bass line as well.” (Liner notes to J. Smith House Party) Then Joe Goldberg: “As usual, there is no bass, because Smith creates his own bass lines with the foot pedals of the organ” (Liner notes to J. Smith Prayer Meeting). These misconceptions imply that there are 3 distinct musical components when performing on the Hammond - bass line, chords and melody. However, even a cursory audition of the albums House Party or Prayer Meeting reveal this is not the case. Most tunes of any significant tempo, apart from ballads will feature a bass line and one other part: a chordal accompaniment part (behind a soloist), or a single-note melodic solo part from the organist. Indeed these erroneous liner notes “which eulogised the organists’ consummate bass-pedal technique” led to many European organists playing all the bass parts on the pedals (Richardson 59). Richardson, who performs in this style, cites a lack of visual information as another culprit in this area. However, even when he saw Jimmy Smith perform in the 1990s, he misinterprets Smith’s ‘thumping’ pedal technique (see below) as miming while his left hand was actually doing all the bass line. Tim Dean-Lewis, another British keyboardist, correctly documents the percussive effect of Smith’s pedal tapping technique (‘thumping’), while making the same false charge of miming against Jimmy Smith several times in his article Treading the Board - a Pedal Play: The Artistry of Jimmy Smith in Performance (206). Manchester-based organist Jay Denson maintains that the tradition in 1960s England was for pedal bass, and that his personal instrument was modified with a sustain unit to allow for a more legato bass line from the pedals. Additionally, stylistic demands for organ-as-big-band, combined with a guitar-less ensemble lineup of organ/drums/saxophone demanded that the bass line be provided by the pedals, enabling a chordal part to always be present.53

 

Thumping 127 The most correct and clearly articulated description of the use of the bass pedals in jazz organ comes from Mattock: It is true that organists use the pedal board for bass extensively, but it is uncommon for them to use it exclusively. At medium to fast tempos, bass lines are almost always played with the left hand on the lower manual. The pedal board is used primarily in the same fashion as a drummer feathering their bass drum to add attack to an upright-bassists lines. A single pitch will be tapped very lightly in quarter notes with the left foot to provide attack, but the actually pitch being heard is that played with the left hand. (24) The combination of left hand bass note and pedal attack sound (‘thumping’) is how many organists in the tradition of Jimmy Smith perform. They are not miming or cheating in anyway. It is an artistic choice, partially dictated by the sheer physical and musical limits of playing legato lines on the pedals, which is extremely difficult. As Richardson notes, the “heavy action of the Hammond bass pedal keyboard…makes up-tempo swing…very difficult” (60). The heavy action and lack of sustain of the bass pedal limits legato bass lines to step-wise construction and slower tempos. Additionally, the tone of the pedals is very dominating, not subtle like the lower manual. This also explains the common use of the pedals for all the bass notes of a ballad where the non-legato “two-feel”, often tonic-to-fifth of the chord, is appropriate. “What’s New” from Jimmy Smith’s Crazy! Baby album is an example where one hears 3 distinct parts. Mattock also clearly articulates the other major usage of the bass pedal in jazz: On occasion certain notes are played more clearly on the pedal board to accent pitches. Playing bass lines with their feet for short periods of time also allow the organist to take their left hand off the lower manual to manipulate the registrations, Leslie speed, chorus and percussion. (24) Schwartz’ own discussion on bass pedals concurs with Mattock. Additionally, I witnessed Jimmy Smith perform using this exact technique at The Basement (Sydney) in the 1990s. I have also seen many prominent organists use the bass pedals in the same fashion: Dr Lonnie Smith, Tony Monaco, Joey DeFrancesco, and Pat Bianchi, for example. Schwartz describes the musical effect that the pedals have on the groove - that each organists individual sound depends precisely on the amount of staccato articulation on the pedals, combined with a legato left-hand bass line. Organists: …stamped the identity on the group…by their individual style of grooving. Most of the groove can be attributed to the bass line, into which the organist has to put the majority of his concentration…the degree to which this is done defines the individual sound of an organist… For example, Jimmy McGriff’s feel came about from a very light bounce on the pedals, Jack McDuff held the pedal down a little longer getting more of a plodding sound.

[FatFingers]

This book has been helpful for me:

 

 

 

 

https://www.amazon.com/Hammond-Organ-Lines-Demystified-Secrets/dp/0692399186/ref=sr_1_1?crid=27S89RSKAM4CF&keywords=hammond+organ+demystified&qid=1679714520&sprefix=hammond+organ+demystified%2Caps%2C135&sr=8-1

[GeoffLamp]

Mitch I’ve just seen this thread now but may I say that I found your guest feature on keyboard chronicles podcast the other day hugely inspiring.
 

Not speaking as an aspiring pro but a hobbyist who all too often finds himself overwhelmed by all the possible styles/techniques I still need to acquire (exacerbated by A: the abundance of material on YouTube, a good and bad thing, and B: a competing obsession with guitar!)… your message of focusing on one goal at a time really resonated
 

Walking bass lesson is great too.

Cheers and congrats on your well-earned success!

[Adan]

13 hours ago, Jim Alfredson said:

As my mentor once told me, "If you're not going to play the pedals, then you might as well go play piano!"

The bass pedals add an immense amount to the organ bass.

OK, I get it, and I'm not going to argue with people like Jim Alfredson and Mitch Town.  But this is a live issue for me as I'm now considering starting up a little organ trio.  I'm primarily a piano player.  I can play organ, including left hand bass, well enough to front an organ trio that will never be on big stages but could gig small clubs.  But I don't play pedals and honestly don't have the time right now to learn because my life is packed to the brim with other stuff.  Should I abandon the project or go ahead but without pedals?  That's a rhetorical question: I don't expect someone on this forum to answer for me.  I'm inclined to do the project without pedals.  My guess is that whether it succeeds at some modest level is going to be determined by things other than whether I'm tapping pedals.

[Adan]

11 hours ago, dazzjazz said:

Here an extract from my PhD theses on bass pedals. It’s hope it helps. 
 

 

Despite all the useless crap on the internet, sometimes it really comes through.  This thread is one of those times.

 

Now I think I'll cleanse the palate with some cat videos . . .

[Adan]

I found it interesting that the new Viscount Legend Soul has what they call a "Thud" mode where, if I understand it correctly, using a standard switch-type foot pedal, you can trigger pedal tones that correlate to the lowest note being played in the left hand.   Just reading the manual, there's a few different variations on how this would work, and I don't think I could completely understand the manual without having the keyboard in front of me.

 

Assuming this really works, is it "cheating"?  I'd leave that for the purists to decide.  But seems like it might be a useful alternative to learning pedals, carrying around a pedal board, getting the ergonomics exactly right between the keyboard stand and bench, etc.  

[Mitch Towne]

2 hours ago, Adan said:

Should I abandon the project or go ahead but without pedals?  That's a rhetorical question: I don't expect someone on this forum to answer for me.  I'm inclined to do the project without pedals.  My guess is that whether it succeeds at some modest level is going to be determined by things other than whether I'm tapping pedals.

You ABSOLUTELY should carry forward with your project! I bet it is going to be a blast and it will definitely expand your abilities as a musician, which is the entire point!

[MathOfInsects]

There is always a fine line between purism and exclusionism. The purists aren’t wrong, and also neither are those interacting with their instruments or sounds on their own terms, even when those terms are “wrong” from the purist perspective.

 

I think there are always parallel paths. One is, “Here is how this is traditionally (and maybe even ideally) done.” The other is, “Here is your instrument. Make music on it.” Breaking from “the tradition”—even out of ignorance of it—is where most of the Great Leaps Forward have happened. So IMO there is room and even a requirement at the table for both masters of “the mode” and defilers of it.

[Theo Verelst]

The way I would play organ would include full chords with the left hand (lower manual), melodies/solo's using the right hand, and some pedal (I was only really used to 1 octave) with left foot, and obviously volume/expression.

 

That for certain song renditions is pretty much the only "full" sound that  should have to be expected from an organ. If you're playing for a funk/soul band and lusting for a nice mushy funk brew, that's another story, adding some Farfisa elements to a band sound, also another story, heading a Jazz combo: depends on if there is a bass player.

 

T.