Wow...is it just me or are classical music faculty really a bunch of bitter folks?

[Valkyrie Sound]

Damn....

 

Is it just me or are classical music faculty really a bunch of bitter folks?

 

I've been working freelance at a Concert hall for the past 5 years which is inside a private music school for kids through High school. It has a reputation for being very good... the hall is great, and we still do adult higher-profile artists in the same hall.

 

I just can't stand dealing with the faculty members I bump into there. My GAWD are they bitter about something! Bad attitudes, HUGE EGOS, and extremely judgemental.

Wow... just think... these people have the privilege of making music for a living!

It's like they're all bitter because they're careers stalled and they didn't become the next Yo Yo Ma . (Yo-Yo Ma is one of the sweetest people I've worked with BTW).

 

I've been dealing with these people for years... it never ends... bitter, bitter, bitter....assh@l#$.

 

I've dealt with reporters, producers, rock/pop musicians.... they all have they're own problems but I have yet to find a more bitter and resentful group of people in my life.

 

So sad really....

Valky

[Philip OKeefe]

I wasn't around it as much as you have been Valky, but in my experience, I found that yes, they may be, when taken as a group, somewhat more prone to bitterness than people in some other fields, but it's just like anything else really - you have a wide range of people and experiences represented, and attitudes vary accordingly.

 

Those people who went into music education because they wanted to, and who really have a gift for - and more importantly, a love for teaching and imparting knowledge to others can be some of the coolest people you ever want to meet. And thank heaven for them. OTOH, some (and I stress SOME) of the people who were performance majors in college and who "didn't make the cut" and ended up teaching because it was the traditional alternative can indeed be bitter about it, and IMO, they should look into getting into a different line of work if they hate it that much.

[The Soundsmith]

There's probably a lot of resentment against the younger musicians who only want to be rock stafrts (and those who kearn three chords - or none, and use a beatvox) and have a hit record.

 

You train for years, practice 8 hours a day, only to find some chickie making a hundred thou per show - because she's CUTED, but marginal talent (at least to your ears...

 

Kind of understandable, really...

 

Time for a REAL day gig, like social worker or used-car salesman. n two weeks they'll be back on the job - smiling...

 

Dasher

[Jode]

Seems like an appropriate time to resurrect these words of wisdom from Frank Zappa.

[YourMotherShouldKnow]

Originally posted by Jode:

Seems like an appropriate time to resurrect these words of wisdom from Frank Zappa.

Thanks for the link Jode. There was a lot of truth in there.

 

"Debbie" will take the wind out of your sails if you let her.

 

Generally speaking, something is rotten in the state of Denmark when it comes to classical musicians. Their motivation seems less about the art and more about them having an amazing technique. Well, the technique is an important part of the art. But they often seem blind to the qualitative essence of a piece of music.

 

They're like robots.

[Geoff Grace]

First as the son of PhD parents and later as a student, I grew up around academia and got my degree in music. As a result, I spent the first half of my life around professors from many departments and from about a half dozen universities. In my experience, just as it takes all types to make a world, it takes all types to make a faculty.

 

I will add however that administration policies and hiring practices at each institution can do a lot to set the tone for both the mood and the attitude of teachers at any given place. My experience is that the difference between one university and another can be pretty dramatic.

 

Personally, I had several music professors of whom I was quite fond, and I kept in touch with them for a number of years following graduation. Of course there were some not so good ones as well.

 

Valky, you certainly seem to have a bad batch of faculty to deal with. Unfortunately, it happens. Fortunately, it's a big world out there. I don't know what your options are, but perhaps you'd have better luck with another institution.

 

Best,

 

Geoff

[Geoff Grace]

...And one more thing:

 

Actually, there's nothing I have to add except...

 

Oops... double post!

 

 

Anyway, good luck Valky!

 

Best,

 

Geoff

[ani]

I just can't stand dealing with the faculty members I bump into there. My GAWD are they bitter about something! Bad attitudes, HUGE EGOS, and extremely judgemental.

Valky,

 

Both of my children have opted out of Band (son), and Strings (daughter) this year because of the attitudes of their instructors. My daughter selected choir over strings at the end of last year because she said she couldn't stand the teacher.. My son went through the summer, having told his Band coach that he wasn't interested in playing in Band again this year. His instructor call the beginning day of Band Camp and tried desperately to get Stephen to change his mind.

 

When I enrolled Stephen in school, I noticed that Band was still on his schedule; I'll have to inquire as to the requirements. I don't want FORCED lessons to spoil my kids desire to play. Both kids complained about their teachers.

[robmix]

I ran into that when I was in college. I had two amazing professors - my ethno-musicology professor and my electronic music professor, hmm, amazing how that worked out. I had to battle for my degree because I didn't follow the exact performance requirements. All the theorists and classical snobs were up in arms because I didn't play in enough ensembles - well duh, I'd been in the recording booth recording 100 performances a year. They just didn't get that I wanted to be a recording engineer and that it was worthy of a degree. Funny how a couple years after I graduated they ammended the degree requirements and created an electronic music tract. Out of all the graduates I'm one of about a dozen that does music professionally, i.e. not a teacher. Oh yeah, one of my fellow alumni is Emily Lazar.

[Tedster]

A great quote...

 

As the attitude...so is the response.

 

In other words...they give you a hard time, lay into them. I've come across engineering/tech types who had very confrontational personalities as well.

 

(Very sarcastic tone) "If you'd DONE this properly before, you'd KNOW that you need to..." (whatever).

 

In short, they have a job to do. But you do, too. And make sure you let the obnoxious ones know in an obnoxious way that although they might know a lot about performance...they don't know shit about engineering.

[LiveMusic]

That Frank Zappa piece is priceless. Man, that guy had cajones. I could never be that insulting, even though much truth is there.

 

About the teachers, I am not in adademia but my brother is. It seems to me that the problem described befits ALL faculties, not just music. Professors, in general, to me, are a pretty miserable lot.

 

My brother is one of the kindest, most conscientious, capable guys you'd ever meet. He has been royally screwed by academia because of run-ins with faculty with tenure. He has been railroaded. I think it's greatly affected his concept of self-worth. These people he has to deal with, many are snobs in the worst way. Their prudes and pricks. And he's paid the price. Tenure.

[RABid]

The classical group is bitter.

The jazz group is conceited.

The rock group is drunk.

The pop group is vain.

The electronic group is wasted.

 

Robert

[Hendmik]

Originally posted by Jode:

Seems like an appropriate time to resurrect these words of wisdom from Frank Zappa.

I just bought that book based on your link. Thanks.

 

As for the attitudes of classical music faculty and students, they are trained in school to believe their music is the only valid one. However, they are second in ego and bitterness only to the fans of classical music and jazz. They are the ex-smokers of music. Crepulent and self-congratulatory.

 

Don't get me wrong, it has nothing to do with the quality of classical and jazz. I love them both. I just enjoy them in seclusion out of fear that someone will mistake me for the snob I'm sure someday I'll eventually become.

[Duddits]

Valkyrie --

 

You're absolutely right.

 

I think a large part of the bitterness is a result of rigorous training, and little compensation.

 

Lots of training + No money = bitter faculty.

 

Another part is the fact that early musical concentration often cuts people off from other things in life. As you probably know, Yo Yo M went to Harvard, and even though he was already a successful cellist at the time, was able to lead a regular life as a student, and is subsequently a "normal guy." But many of his ilk who, unlike him, hunkered down in conservatories, cut themselves off from the sort of experiences that turn young people into happy adults.

 

It's not all that different from other fields in which participants over-specialize at a young age, for example, gymnastics or ice skating.

[ernest828]

Valky

 

Yes I agree. I studied in a music school at the college level and though I found several of these professors highly skilled, I also found many to be bitter. I think you hit it on the nose, many are bitter over not being the next Yo Yo or Isaac.

 

I remember the "classical" instructors looking down on everything but their fields of expertise. Even though we had Jazz greats Sir Roland Hanna, Jimmy Heath and Donald Byrd on staff, I got the feeling that there was a lot of jealousy amongst faculty tpwards those three. Because these guys were giants in their field. Don`t get me wrong, not everyone was like this. There were some pretty open minded instructors there but there was an attitude of superiority with many others.

 

I just think it has to do with training your whole life for something that never happens and dealing with it.

 

Ernest

[TheFunkman]

I once had a conversation with a dentist (one of the interesting ones...you know the type: a healthy dose of curiosity, a staff of hotties for hygenists, and a well-worn spigot on the nitrous dispenser!) He was amazed to read that while musicians in general seemed to be right-brained, classical orchestral musicians were mostly left-brained and analytical.

 

I told him that the people in the orchestra (and classical pianists) get their notes handed to them, and goddammit, those are the notes, and if they think of an interesting embellishment to add, "play it and you're fired."

 

And here's the problem: if you want to "make it" when you grow up...to shine, to be somebody, there's a missing mystical element: elan, panache, joy de vivre, style.

 

Gee, I'm sorry Mister Salieri, but that knuckle-rapping sadist at the conservatory probably forgot to mention that, didn't he?! From there, it's a short walk to Bitter Street.

http://images.rottentomatoes.com/images/movie/gallery/1000729/Amadeus-photo_03.jpg

Also, LiveMusic brought up a great point about the snakepits that college faculties are. While he's not in a music department, I have a brother at a university where the department is a real-life version of "Spy-versus-Spy."

[ITGITC]

Hmmmmmm, that's nothing that a little of this:

 

http://www.manekineko.us/catalog/images/product/exlax_120pills_enlarge.jpg

 

couldn't fix!

 

 

 

Is There Gas In The Car?

[GeorgeVW]

Personally, even though I love Zappa, I find that particular speech to be essentially nothing but melodramatic stereotyping. Then again, as a satirist, that's part of what Frank did best - play "freak the mundanes".

 

Academic (read "serious") music goes through styles and fashions just like everything else. Currently, most academic composition curricula are still stuck in the minimalism of the '60s and '70s - Reich, Riley, Glass, etc., just as an earlier generation was stuck with serialism for a generation or so. If you dare to make melodic and layered symphonic music, they send you over to the film school to score motion pictures.

[Duddits]

Originally posted by GeorgeVW:

Academic (read "serious") music goes through styles and fashions just like everything else.

True.

 

Originally posted by GeorgeVW:

Currently, most academic composition curricula are still stuck in the minimalism of the '60s and '70s - Reich, Riley, Glass, etc., just as an earlier generation was stuck with serialism for a generation or so. If you dare to make melodic and layered symphonic music, they send you over to the film school to score motion pictures.

Interestingly enough, I don't think that's true any more. With so-called "neo romantics" like Druckman, Schwatner, Adams, and others, layered, melodic, symphonic music has reemerged in academia.

[Dennyf]

Those people who went into music education because they wanted to, and who really have a gift for - and more importantly, a love for teaching and imparting knowledge to others can be some of the coolest people you ever want to meet. And thank heaven for them. OTOH, some (and I stress SOME) of the people who were performance majors in college and who "didn't make the cut" and ended up teaching because it was the traditional alternative can indeed be bitter about it, and IMO, they should look into getting into a different line of work if they hate it that much.

Exactly, Phil!

 

I think this general premise is prominent in ALL fields of education. Too few "teachers" are really called to teaching, and too many positions are filled by people who found teaching to be the path of least resistance for finding employment in a way that let's them feel like their own years of tuition weren't totally wasted.

 

Academe has largely become a self-regulated, self-evaluated money-grubbing industry that primarily churns out more academicians. I guess it's just the nature of things that all human endeavor is a pyramid, with a huge amount of pointless, political, back-biting *churning* to support a tiny apex of real progress.

 

Too bad we can't find a more efficient path.

[Jeff Klopmeyer]

Like my pal Geoff, I also have a bachelor's in Music. so I spent plenty of time around bitter classical music instructors. And bitter they were.

 

One of them (who I won't name) was absolutely brilliant. One of the most amazing musical minds I've ever been exposed to. She became quite famous very young... composed her first full symphony at age four. Was a nationally-known child prodigy, and led her class at Julliard.

 

And then, some forty years later... was teaching advanced theory and composition to a bunch of slackers at a no-name university where many (most?) of the people cared more about audio engineering than serious music analysis. I suppose I'd be a little curmudgeonly under those circumstances. At the same time, one of my other advanced profs (a well-known classical pianist) was a delight. Always had a smile. Fun class. Learned a lot.

 

But still... bitter is more the rule than the exception.

 

- Jeff

[GeorgeVW]

Originally posted by Duddits:

Interestingly enough, I don't think that's true any more. With so-called "neo romantics" like Druckman, Schwatner, Adams, and others, layered, melodic, symphonic music has reemerged in academia.

That may very well be. It's been a few years at this point since I had a lot of contact with that particular world.

 

Parenthetically, I used to want to do a big rock orchestra performance of Riley's 'In C', just for s&g. That was just before I wanted to do the record of hip-hop settings of classic poetry (Frost's 'Stopping by Woods on a Snowy Evening' makes a first class rap. Word.)

[seclusion]

Man I hear ya hun..

I work day in and day out with teachers in a high school. Even with their 3 months off a year and a $60K give or take a $1K a year they are the most helpless, bitchy bunch of people going...

Really screws their brain when I (a custodian)goes in and talk to the kids about recording / mixing / guitar playing etc. I give them real life experience, hands on and the odd swear word in my talks with my own equiptment, as that is real life... Possibly it's because they've spent most of their career behind paper, they never just "did it" ... As someone once said, "those who do, do, those that don't, teach"... A lot of em are bitter about that!! All though I don't get it.

Later

Bri

[Dan South]

In my unscientific and anecdotal observations, I have found the classical music community to be condescending in general. Their contempt for those outside of their sphere of influence manifests itself in multiple forms.

 

(1) Condescension toward non-classical music. If it wasn't written a long time ago by one of the "recognized masters," it's not to be taken seriously.

 

(2) Condescension toward non-classically-trained musicians. Your name might be Parker or Gillespie or Clapton, but as far as the classical set is concerned, you're a wanker.

 

(3) Condescension toward non-classical instruments. If you can plug your instrument into a tuner, or if it requires a power chord, you're not a real musician.

 

(4) Condescension toward the general public. If you don't attend classical performances or buy classical CD's regularly, you're an uninformed peon.

 

(5) Extra levels of reserve contempt for any music that's primarily intended to be fun. Rock and roll, rhythm and blues, funk, salsa, Broadway - that's not music. Music is supposed to be SERIOUS, dammit!

 

I thought that some of this stuffiness was going to pass when classical musicians, particularly the women, started marketing themselves with the aid of sexually provocative poses and outfits, but apparently the inherent bitterness of that end of the music business is immune to even the universal delights of lipstick and cleavage.

[hard truth]

BTW it should be called "European classical music" since (among others) China and India have formalized music (classical) traditions older and at least as sophisticated as Europe's.

[YourMotherShouldKnow]

I'm reading this book called Journey Into the Whirlwind by a gal named Eugenia Ginzburg. She was a political scholar in Russia in the 1930s and when Stalin started doing his thing they arrested her, imprisoned her and that's where I am in the book now.

 

Please consider reading this book.

 

So what's this got to do with university professors? While I'm not prepared to put them in a category with Stalin and his henchmen I do think there is a similar base of anti-individuality goin' on. Mozart's and Beethoven's and Sting's and Stevie Wonder's and Paul McCartney's are not the focus of academia. The university environment doesn't encourage individuality. Just the opposite.

 

So it's no wonder these people are moody and unhappy. It has to be boring as hell to care for a flower garden of mediocrity all year.

[mwestenberg]

I periodically do FOH sound for the Madison Area Technical College theater and quite often work dance shows. The insular "anything else is not valid" attitude also pervades the dance world although it is tempered somewhat by acceptance of some avant garde elements. For some reason the young dancers are taught the attitude that their crap don't stink. I don't know if an iron clad ego is necessary for extreme physical accomplishment or what, but it seems similar to what you all are describing in the classical music world.

That lurking financial reward thing (or lack therof) is also present.

[Jeebus]

Originally posted by Duddits:

Another part is the fact that early musical concentration often cuts people off from other things in life. As you probably know, Yo Yo M went to Harvard, and even though he was already a successful cellist at the time, was able to lead a regular life as a student, and is subsequently a "normal guy." But many of his ilk who, unlike him, hunkered down in conservatories, cut themselves off from the sort of experiences that turn young people into happy adults.

 

It's not all that different from other fields in which participants over-specialize at a young age, for example, gymnastics or ice skating.

Exactly. Any good university encourages it's students to get involved in social events/clubs/sports. Social skills are so important, and yet most people fail to realize that they need to be developed, just like anything else. Kids who cut themselves off from the world during those years tend to remain at a 12 year old's mentality, even into adulthood.

[Super 8]

Originally posted by GeorgeVW:

Personally, even though I love Zappa, I find that particular speech to be essentially nothing but melodramatic stereotyping. Then again, as a satirist, that's part of what Frank did best - play "freak the mundanes".

Thank you...

 

That was exactly what I was thinking too.

 

The first impression I got was that if Zappa REALLY believed what he was saying, he would have stopped making music long ago himself.

However, I think his real message was about shaking the standards and breaking down some barriers. Typical of Zappa.

 

Originally posted by LanceMo:

Generally speaking, something is rotten in the state of Denmark when it comes to classical musicians. Their motivation seems less about the art and more about them having an amazing technique.

You need the technique in order to play the art. I'm certain you already know this.

 

Originally posted by LanceMo:

Well, the technique is an important part of the art. But they often seem blind to the qualitative essence of a piece of music.

 

They're like robots.

I don't really think that's true. The 'robots' are actually the one's who don't get it...and I'd venture that they also don't go very far.

 

The truly great musicians have the ability to inject the feeling and meaning into what they are playing. They are still playing the same notes on the page EXACTLY as they are written. But within that ridged construct there is still the need for the piece to be interpreted.

 

I used to record at a university. I've listened to many performances. The 'robots' always made me wonder what time it was. But the musicians with true talent always left me feeling inspired.

 

Originally posted by hard truth:

BTW it should be called "European classical music" since (among others) China and India have formalized music (classical) traditions older and at least as sophisticated as Europe's.

I just knew someone would come in and get PC on our ass...

 

I've studied some eastern music - not in great depth, but enough to give me a notion of what's going on. I have to be honest. I've never heard anything from from China or India nearly as sophisticated as western classical.

 

I'm not saying that to diminish those forms of music. But I'm not sure that the INTENTION of those musical forms was ever to be "sophisticated". I think the music in general is intended to be representational and programatic.

Basically, I don't think you can easily compare Western and Eastern classical music. I think they are two different animals.

[Sergievsky]

Originally posted by robmix:

I ran into that when I was in college. I had two amazing professors - my ethno-musicology professor and my electronic music professor, hmm, amazing how that worked out..

Hey Rob, you didn't by any chance go to Northwestern in Evanston,IL did you? Those were the only two professors that I liked as well. After those two I couldn't stand anymore and bolted early.